How do you respond to questions about the God in the OT?

[T_More]

A question for Catholic and non Catholic Christians. When someone expresses to you that they can’t understand how God can allow Moses to kill the 3000 for worshipping the golden calf, or how God could allow the annihilation of nations so Israel could enter the and conquer the promised land, how do you respond? I was engaged all day today in discussion with a close friend who is a fallen away Catholic and this was one of his objections to the God of the OT, and he sees a different God than in the NT. He has fallen into relativism and thinks that God’s infinicy cannot be contained in one “religion” and there is no one single “truth”. Thanks in advance!

 

[JackVk]

Ezekiliel chapter 20: “Because of the hardness of their hearts, I gave them laws that were not good”. This includes a lot of the Laws of Moses. Remember, God only explicitly gave Moses the Ten Commandments. Everything else he did because Israel was stubborn and wouldn’t listen, like allowing divorce. Remember when Jesus said, “In the beginning, this was not so”?

 

[nablaise]

A question for Catholic and non Catholic Christians. When someone expresses to you that they can’t understand how God can allow Moses to kill the 3000 for worshipping the golden calf, or how God could allow the annihilation of nations so Israel could enter the and conquer the promised land, how do you respond? I was engaged all day today in discussion with a close friend who is a fallen away Catholic and this was one of his objections to the God of the OT, and he sees a different God than in the NT. He has fallen into relativism and thinks that God’s infinicy cannot be contained in one “religion” and there is no one single “truth”. Thanks in advance!

I believe this is the answer Jesus gave to these questions:

[7] Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
[8] All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
[9] I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
[10] The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
[11] I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
[12] But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
[13] The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
[14] I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
[15] As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
[16] And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
[17] Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
[18] No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

John 10

That’s how he compared himself with other prophets.
If you add him also saying that ‘no one ever saw God’, then you can have something to develop some thoughts on.

 

[Sam_777]

Ezekiliel chapter 20: “Because of the hardness of their hearts, I gave them laws that were not good”. This includes a lot of the Laws of Moses. Remember, God only explicitly gave Moses the Ten Commandments. Everything else he did because Israel was stubborn and wouldn’t listen, like allowing divorce. Remember when Jesus said, “In the beginning, this was not so”?

You know Jack , this is the best answer I’ve read so far regarding that subject http://forums.catholic-questions.or...atholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif.

 

[cooterhein]

A question for Catholic and non Catholic Christians. When someone expresses to you that they can’t understand how God can allow Moses to kill the 3000 for worshipping the golden calf, or how God could allow the annihilation of nations so Israel could enter the and conquer the promised land, how do you respond? I was engaged all day today in discussion with a close friend who is a fallen away Catholic and this was one of his objections to the God of the OT, and he sees a different God than in the NT. He has fallen into relativism and thinks that God’s infinicy cannot be contained in one “religion” and there is no one single “truth”. Thanks in advance!

There’s a couple of things that a Protestant Christian might say. One is more helpful to Catholics; the other is probably less helpful.

First, there’s the issue of time span. The OT covers a few thousand years while the NT covers a few dozen. You could easily make the argument that God is merciful, gracious, and extremely slow to anger throughout the entirety of the OT, and His wrath and justice only became apparent after absurd spans of decades and centuries at a time. The NT covers a much shorter span of time and is primarily focused on a specific set of exceptionally gracious and merciful acts of God that He always had planned and had always been working toward.

Second, there’s a notion that might have a lot more to do with Protestantism than with Catholicism. It has to do with penal substitutionary atonement. From what I understand, most Catholics will come along for the substitutionary atonement portion, but most are not ok with the penal portion. This does tend to characterize the Protestant mindset, however, and it can lead to this sort of description. In the OT (which, as we already established, covers a great span of time), God spreads all His wrath/punishment/justice over a loooong timespan and many individuals. Then in the NT, you see every bit of that wrath/punishment/justice poured out in the span of an extremely intense span of just a few hours while Jesus is crucified and endures an eternity’s worth of punishment. (Most people will acknowledge there’s some aspect to this anguish that goes beyond the straight-up physical). So according to this description, the same portion of God’s wrath is on display in the OT and the NT, but the focus and the timeframe in the NT is focused on just one individual whereas the OT wrath is spread over thousands of years and many thousands of people and animals.

In my experience, that’s where it tends to go.

 

[JackVk]

There’s a couple of things that a Protestant Christian might say. One is more helpful to Catholics; the other is probably less helpful.

First, there’s the issue of time span. The OT covers a few thousand years while the NT covers a few dozen. You could easily make the argument that God is merciful, gracious, and extremely slow to anger throughout the entirety of the OT, and His wrath and justice only became apparent after absurd spans of decades and centuries at a time. The NT covers a much shorter span of time and is primarily focused on a specific set of exceptionally gracious and merciful acts of God that He always had planned and had always been working toward.

Second, there’s a notion that might have a lot more to do with Protestantism than with Catholicism. It has to do with penal substitutionary atonement. From what I understand, most Catholics will come along for the substitutionary atonement portion, but most are not ok with the penal portion. This does tend to characterize the Protestant mindset, however, and it can lead to this sort of description. In the OT (which, as we already established, covers a great span of time), God spreads all His wrath/punishment/justice over a loooong timespan and many individuals. Then in the NT, you see every bit of that wrath/punishment/justice poured out in the span of an extremely intense span of just a few hours while Jesus is crucified and endures an eternity’s worth of punishment. (Most people will acknowledge there’s some aspect to this anguish that goes beyond the straight-up physical). So according to this description, the same portion of God’s wrath is on display in the OT and the NT, but the focus and the timeframe in the NT is focused on just one individual whereas the OT wrath is spread over thousands of years and many thousands of people and animals.

In my experience, that’s where it tends to go.

I’ve heard the “Sins of the fathers” approach, and I’m Catholic, and I find it very logical. Israel suffered because of David’s sins. And everything that has become bad in humanity comes out in Jesus’ Passion. That doesn’t seem contrary to Catholicism to me at all.

 

[Robbinson]

Ezekiliel chapter 20: “Because of the hardness of their hearts, I gave them laws that were not good”. This includes a lot of the Laws of Moses. Remember, God only explicitly gave Moses the Ten Commandments. Everything else he did because Israel was stubborn and wouldn’t listen, like allowing divorce. Remember when Jesus said, “In the beginning, this was not so”?

That is a very interesting verse. However, Paul declared that God’s Law was “holy, righteous, and good” (Rom. 7:12). Even sinners must “agree that the Law is good” (Rom. 7:16).

Perhaps in context God is not referring to the Mosaic Law in Ezek 20 but to laws that idolatrous Israel gave into (pagan laws and statutes)?

On the other hand - your illustration by reference to Jesus’s discussion of divorce and the mosaic law is a powerful one. I’ll ponder this idea further.

That said on the larger question, I don’t believe the God of the New Testament is at all different from the God of the Old Testament. God is holy, just, merciful but also excats judgment in both the Old and the New Testaments. Jesus’s descriptions of Hell in the New Testament are more judgemental than almost anything described in the Old.

As Jesus said, He is the same yesterday, today and forever. Ultimately, God is multidimensional and we can’t fully understand Him. I think a key, perhaps, lies in the distinction between temporal punishment and eternal punishment and reward. Not all those who are punished temporally here on earth will be eternally outside of God’s presence and, conversely, not all of those who enjoy blessings in this life will end up in heaven.

Thank you for the interesting verse cite.

Blessings,

Brian