How do you respond to

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How do you respond to those who point out the atrocities that may or may not have been committed by Roman Catholics in the name of Roman Catholicism and to biblical arguments raised by Protestants and other issues.
 
How do you respond to those who point out the atrocities that may or may not have been committed by Roman Catholics in the name of Roman Catholicism
By asking when did Christ ever promise that everyone within the Church would be perfect and without sin merely because they are Catholic. This issue is raised to argue against the Church’s infallibility in matters of faith and morals, but infallibility in doctrine is not the same thing as impeccability in deeds. Peter denied Jesus 3 times and was admonished by St. Paul for not eating with Gentile converts, but he was still the rock upon which Christ founded his Church.
and to biblical arguments raised by Protestants and other issues.
By reminding them that the Bible is the Church’s book which is not open to interpretation by all and sundry but by those given the authority to decide matters of faith and morals–the Magisterium of the Church which is comprised of all the bishops of the Church in union with the pope.
 
Without addressing whether or not any specific accusation of atrocity is valid or not, our faith is not founded on the sins of the Church’s members. It is founded on Christ, the cornerstone.
 
Without addressing whether or not any specific accusation of atrocity is valid or not, our faith is not founded on the sins of the Church’s members. It is founded on Christ, the cornerstone.
Amen! The sins of the members of the Church do not eclipse the truth of Christ.
 
How do you respond to those who point out the atrocities that may or may not have been committed by Roman Catholics in the name of Roman Catholicism
First, you have to make sure they are accurately representing what actually happened. An example, there are claims that millions were killed in the Inquisition, when the actual number is under 4,000 (over 4 centuries, or about 10/year).

Once the actual history is correctly laid out, then we can discuss the situation. As noted above, the Church is full of sinful people, and they have done bad things. But it doesn’t mean the teachings of the Church are false.
and to biblical arguments raised by Protestants and other issues.
Usually by discussing the underpinning of their argument, namely who had authority to even declare that the 73 books of the Bible are God’s word. And then will discuss many other Biblical passages they are probably unaware of because their denominations probably don’t focus on them very much.
 
I tell such people that a true gentleman does not discuss Religion, Politics, or Women by name in public, and since they are not close personal friends of mine, answering them would constitute a public discussion!
Such a response always leaves such people speechless.
 
How do you respond to those who point out the atrocities that may or may not have been committed by Roman Catholics in the name of Roman Catholicism and to biblical arguments raised by Protestants and other issues.
I respond with kindness, love, and consideration.

I also try to see if they are being sincere in their questions, wanting to know real answers, or if they ask their questions as a means to start proselytizing and trying to convert me from my faith. Then I go from there, prepared in the grace of God to deal with what comes my way, always hoping for a peaceful conversation and avoiding debate.

As for “atrocities that may or may not have been committed” by my fellow Catholics, I ask how they deal with similar situations. Do they abandon their Protestant faith because of faithless ones in their religion and/or godless acts done by their members of their church or do they stay the course?

Just this past summer, after a 14-year study into my family’s background, I found the names of members of my family, Catholics, who were persecuted by fellow members of my faith during the Spanish Inquisition. Some of these people died at the hands of brethren Catholic who felt no qualms about killing someone just because they were of Jewish ancestry.

Yes, fellow Catholics tortured members of my family and approved of persecution of them even though on my father’s side it appears likely that we may be from a line reaching back to the first Christians in Israel from around the time of the apostles.

Did my family leave the Church after the Spanish Inquisition? No. They remained Catholic for generations down to me. We did not abandon our faith. We have not been shaken by those who proved false to the Church, and today the Church now encourages us to rediscover our roots and keep our culture alive. Those unfaithful Catholics perished while our family, by means of God’s grace through faith, survived with our Catholic religion and our Jewish ethnicity intact.

That’s how I answer that question.
 
Violence.

If they want to ‘play-stupid’ then you should live-up to it. Let them think what they want, but let them fear saying it.
 
How do you respond to those who point out the atrocities that may or may not have been committed by Roman Catholics in the name of Roman Catholicism and to biblical arguments raised by Protestants and other issues.
I would ask them how much research they have actually done on the particular subject, as well as what sources they used for study.

In most cases, no actual research has been done by the person making the claims. They are simply regurgitating things they heard from others. If they have actually done their research and told me what sources they got all their information from, then I would look into those sources and see if I came to the same conclusion as they did.
 
I always respond that the Church is made up of human beings, all of whom are sinners. What individuals do, or have done in the past, to embarrass or deny the teachings of the Church (those who love and worship the Lord), in no way reflects the Ultimate Truth that the Church upholds.

Those who have dishonored the Church, and therefore Christ, will meet with their Lord the same way I will someday. It is never for us to judge another individual for his/her own actions. Moreover, one bad apple does not always spoil the whole lot. I tell them not to worry about such individual and albeit rare actions against the Church. They are but a minute portion of the overall goodness of the majority of faithful members of the Church.

Praise be to God, the Almighty, that we have the honor of serving Him. Stay true to your Faith, and nothing is impossible with God at your side.
 
Without addressing whether or not any specific accusation of atrocity is valid or not, our faith is not founded on the sins of the Church’s members. It is founded on Christ, the cornerstone.
Well said!
 
The bible mentions that near the end times, christians will be persecuted for their beliefs, so this tells me the govt will reach a point in time when it fears christians and no longer wants them in their communities, so of course the church will need people/soldiers to fight the police and federal soldiers, this also happened long ago, the church went to war and fought in many battles, this will happen again, it comes with the territory IMO, Ive heard it said many times, being a true devoted christian brings alot of trouble upon yourself from govt and local authorities too, but this is all a test in Gods eyes, you have to be strong and fight for what is right and what you hold to be true.

Im not sure how it was long ago regarding these crusaders and all they experienced, but id say when the catholic church is faced with this kind of persecution in the near future, I just cannot see many parishioners actually going out and fighting with police and/or troops, I dont see todays christians being that devoted to their beliefs. Instead I presume most will follow ANY law passed by the state or local authorities and will not even stand up to it. People were different when the crusades were going on, there was a general dislike for any form of govt or authority anyway, so people were more likely willing to pick up arms and fight them, but today, things are not really like this, most people stand with the local and fed authority, so it will be interesting to see what happens when christians start being persecuted for their beliefs.Will the church parishes tell their people to stand together and fight or…?
 
By reminding them that the Bible is the Church’s book which is not open to interpretation by all and sundry but by those given the authority to decide matters of faith and morals–the Magisterium of the Church which is comprised of all the bishops of the Church in union with the pope.
Please keep in mind as I respond to you that I am not here to argue but to try and understand. With that said their response would most surely be the above does not enjoy any biblical support. Acts 17:11 reads: “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” And Jesus Christ Himself said “Search the scriptures…” (John 5:39). None of the verses imply that we should appeal to any “Magisterium”. Again, I’m just trying to understand soplease keep your replies civil.
 
How do you respond to those who point out the atrocities that may or may not have been committed by Roman Catholics in the name of Roman Catholicism and to biblical arguments raised by Protestants and other issues.
By showing them what Jesus had to say on the matter.

THE IMPACT OF SIN ON CHURCH AUTHORITY

If a Church leader is guilty of gross immorality, does his sin invalidate his position or authority?

Many, if not most, Protestants would say that it does, and they often use this line of reasoning to justify their denial of the authority of the Catholic Church. They cite historical events such as the Crusades, the Inquisition or reign of the Borgia Popes as evidence that the Church has lost its claim to moral and spiritual authority.

Such a response, however, is unbiblical. For example, Scripture states that Jesus knew “from the beginning” who would betray him – namely Judas, whom Jesus calls a “devil” (cf. John 6:64–71). This fact is significant, since Judas was selected as an apostle even though Jesus knew that he was corrupt.

Another example would be found in Jesus’ teaching on “Moses’ seat” found in the opening verses of Matthew 23: “Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: ‘The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.’” (Matthew 23:1-3)

“Moses’ seat” is a phrase that referred to a position of legitimate teaching authority held by the teachers of the law and the Pharisees. Later, Jesus condemned these men as “hypocrites,” “blind guides,” “blind fools,” “serpents,” and a “brood of vipers.” But in the passage above, Jesus specifically instructed the crowds and his disciples to obey these leaders – despite their corruption – because of the authority of their position. That is sobering stuff.

If it were true that immorality invalidated a religious leader’s authority, then why did Jesus command his followers to “obey and do everything” the scribes and Pharisees tell them? Jesus merely admonished his followers not to follow their hypocritical example. There is not even the slightest hint that their positions had been forfeited or abrogated because of their hypocrisy or immorality. If anything, the reverse is true because Jesus validated these leaders’ office by telling people to obey them. From this, we see that sin and corruption found in the individual office holders has no impact whatsoever on the authority of the office itself.

In the Parable of the Weeds found in Matthew 13, Jesus tells His disciples to anticipate corruption within the Church. He said:

"The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. "The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ (Matthew 13:24-30)

Notice it is not the world at large that is being described but rather the “kingdom of heaven” or Church that is portrayed as the field containing both wheat and weeds. Jesus does not indicate that weeds (sinners) should be uprooted from the field (Church) until the separation done at the time of the final harvest.

The Church is not a paradise for saints who are already perfected but a hospital for the spiritually sick who are being healed.

Jesus clearly taught that sins of individual Church leaders do not invalidate the authority of the positions those leaders hold. These sins, whether real or imagined, do not undermine the legitimate authority of the Catholic Church and do not provide an excuse for those who refuse to acknowledge and obey her. The authority given by God to the Church and the office of the Papacy is the same today as it was in the days of Peter, Linus, Anacletus and Clement because God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
 
I tell such people that a true gentleman does not discuss Religion, Politics, or Women by name in public, and since they are not close personal friends of mine, answering them would constitute a public discussion!
Such a response always leaves such people speechless.
Gee, those are the only things I enjoy discussing.

Wait, what are you saying???

😛
 
Please keep in mind as I respond to you that I am not here to argue but to try and understand. With that said their response would most surely be the above does not enjoy any biblical support. Acts 17:11 reads: “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” And Jesus Christ Himself said “Search the scriptures…” (John 5:39). None of the verses imply that we should appeal to any “Magisterium”. Again, I’m just trying to understand soplease keep your replies civil.
Well, since you asked…let me begin by saying that most folks have this whole incident backwards!

Berean Rejection of Sola Scriptura

If one group could be tagged as believers in sola scriptura, who would it be, the Thessalonians or the Bereans? The Thessalonians, obviously. They, like the Bereans, examined the Scriptures with Paul in the synagogue, yet they rejected his teaching. They rejected the new teaching, deciding after three weeks of deliberation that Paul’s word contradicted the Torah. Their decision was not completely unjustified from their scriptural perspective. How could the Messiah of God be cursed by hanging on a tree like a common criminal, publicly displayed as one who bore the judgment of God? What kind of king and Messiah would that be? This seemed irreconcilable to them (see Simon J. Kistemaker, Acts [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books, 1990], 614).

When some of the Greeks and prominent citizens did accept Jesus as Messiah, the Jews became jealous—and rightfully so, from their perspective, since the new believers separated themselves from the synagogue and began meeting elsewhere, at Jason’s house. The Jews naturally considered themselves the authoritative interpreters of the Torah. Who were the Gentiles to interpret Scripture and decide important theological issues or accept additional revelation? They were the “dogs,” not the chosen custodians of the oracles of God (see William Barclay, The Acts of the Apostles [Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: Westminster Press, 1976], 128).

We can see, then, that if anyone could be classified as adherents to sola scriptura it was the Thessalonian Jews. They reasoned from the Scriptures alone and concluded that Paul’s new teaching was “unbiblical.”

The Bereans, on the other hand, were not adherents of sola scriptura, for they were willing to accept Paul’s new oral teaching as the word of God (as Paul claimed his oral teaching was; see 1 Thess. 2:13). The Bereans, before accepting the oral word of God from Paul, a tradition as even Paul himself refers to it (see 2 Thess. 2:15), examined the Scriptures to see if these things were so. They were noble-minded precisely because they “received the word with all eagerness.” Were the Bereans commended primarily for searching the Scriptures? No. Their open-minded willingness to listen was the primary reason they are referred to as noble-minded—not that they searched the Scriptures. A perusal of grammars and commentaries makes it clear that they were “noble-minded” not for studying Scripture, but for treating Paul more civilly than did the Thessalonians—with an open mind and generous courtesy (see I. Howard Marshall, “The Acts of the Apostles” in the Tyndale New Testament Commentaries [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1981], 5:280).

The Bereans searched the Torah no less than the Thessalonians, yet they were eager to accept words of God from the mouth of Paul, in addition to what they already held to be Scripture, that is, the Law and the Prophets. Even if one claims that Paul preached the gospel and not a “tradition,” it is clear that the Bereans were accepting new revelation that was not contained in their Scriptures. These Berean Jews accepted oral teaching, the tradition of the apostles, as equal to Scripture, in addition to, and as an “extension” of, the Torah. This is further illustrated by the Christian community’s reception of Paul’s epistles as divinely inspired Scripture (see 2 Peter 3:16; here Peter seems to acknowledges Paul’s writings as equal to the “other Scriptures,” which can be presumed to refer to the Old Testament).

From Steve Ray’s article: catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9703fea3.asp

Those who followed the doctrine of sola scriptura, the Thessalonians, rejected Paul’s oral preaching and the long awaited Messiah. Those who accepted oral teaching AND scripture, the Bereans, accepted the Gospel and the Messiah.

Additionally, although both groups searched the scriptures, they came to contradictory conclusions about the Messiah. Clearly, scripture alone is insufficient to ensure proper interpretation.
 
Originally Posted by Della View Post
By reminding them that the Bible is the Church’s book which is not open to interpretation by all and sundry but by those given the authority to decide matters of faith and morals–the Magisterium of the Church which is comprised of all the bishops of the Church in union with the pope.
Also in the spirit - not of argument - but of aiding understanding, I would respond to the above by saying that the bible does indeed support the position put forward by Della.
Mt 18:15-18 contains instructions from Christ himself on dealing with disputes among the faithful - and such disagreements would include doctrinal / interpretation issues. Jesus, in vs 17 says that we are to take such difficult issues and “tell it to the Church” - and then we are to “listen…to the Church”.
Later, in Acts 15 we see these instructions played out through the dispute at Antioch and the subsequent Council of Jerusalem.
So the bible demonstrates both the instruction for the magisterial authority to settle disputes and to “bind and loose whatever” as well as giving a demonstration of that magisterial authority in action.

Peace
James
 
Please keep in mind as I respond to you that I am not here to argue but to try and understand. With that said their response would most surely be the above does not enjoy any biblical support. Acts 17:11 reads: “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” And Jesus Christ Himself said “Search the scriptures…” (John 5:39). None of the verses imply that we should appeal to any “Magisterium”. Again, I’m just trying to understand soplease keep your replies civil.
If I was uncivil I apologize, but I was only stating facts, not arguing with you or anyone else. Simply relaying the facts in no way implies that anyone is being high-handed. Having a ready come back might also be considered uncivil, but I certainly don’t see it that way. I see that some Protestants want to believe they have the authority to interpret Scripture as to faith and morals, and so they look for verses to back them up. That doesn’t convince those who know anything about real Church history, I’m afraid. It only convinces those who want to believe it. 😉

As I wrote, the Bible is the Church’s book. People can cherry pick verses all they like, so can I, but that doesn’t mean they have the authority to interpret what they quote. :tiphat:

For example, the US Constitution was written by the founding fathers of the USA. Who has the authority to determine what it means to the country as times change and challenges come up? The US Supreme Court. Why? Because it was given that authority by the founding fathers.

It is the same with the Magisterium, who are the successors of the Apostles. It was to the Apostles that Christ gave the authority to teach and preach in his name, not to anyone and everyone. This is clearly shown in Scripture itself. Jesus gave to Peter the keys of the kingdom not to anyone who might become Christian. The letters of St. Paul are all concerned with his authority to tell the various Christian communities what they should be doing–by the authority Christ gave him, not because they had searched out the Scriptures for themselves.

There are good articles on this issue here on Catholic Answers. I hope you find them helpful. 🙂
 
If I was uncivil I apologize
You weren’t. I was just stating that to try and prevent any uncivility-is that a word?-before it happened. I wasn’t directing that comment at you but to all because I know only too well how discussions of this and any type can and do become misunderstood and they can be taken the wrong way.
 
You weren’t. I was just stating that to try and prevent any uncivility-is that a word?-before it happened. I wasn’t directing that comment at you but to all because I know only too well how discussions of this and any type can and do become misunderstood and they can be taken the wrong way.
No problem. :tiphat: Discussions certainly can become uncivil and of course they shouldn’t. :yup: The first principle of apologetics is to tell the truth in love. Most of us try to do that. People sometimes let their emotions carry them away, but we do try to maintain civility on CAF. If we don’t our mods soon deal with us. 😉
 
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