How do you save a traditional chuch in a progressive diocese?

  • Thread starter Thread starter GloriaPatri4
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
G

GloriaPatri4

Guest
Please pray for this St. Mary’s, the traditional church in Huntington Beach, CA

I thought I would start another thread regarding St. Mary’s by the Sea parish in Huntington Beach, CA. This beautiful little church is dwindling away.

A little over a year ago this church was a thriving traditional parish, thriving that is until the Tridentine Latin Mass was discontinued by the bishop.

Since the TLM was taken away the congregation has been cut almost in half, and half a congregation means half the money.

The church still has no permanent pastor, but an administrator.

I am not a parishioner at this parish but what is happening at St. Mary’s is wrong.

Parishioners would come back if the TLM were allowed by the bishop.
Sunday, May 16, 2004
The Catholic Church’s great divide

By Steven Greenhut

Orange County Register

Even readers without a trace of interest in Roman Catholic liturgical and theological debates might want to follow an ongoing controversy in the Diocese of Orange surrounding the future of the Tridentine Mass. The issues at the center of this debate are issues that shed light on the ongoing sex-abuse scandal, the roots of which still confuse some observers today.To traditional Roman Catholics, there are few things more pious than this mass, which is an old-style Latin Mass known for its deep meaning and great beauty. This is the real deal, complete with vestments, incense and Gregorian Chant. It’s more pious than the modern mass and the polar opposite of - this really happened in Orange County - a mass given by a dancing priest wearing a black leotard.

Now that a veteran priest at a traditional Huntington Beach parish has retired, the diocese is stamping out the Tridentine Mass at that location, forcing devotees to drive to the overcrowded Mission San Juan Capistrano, where it is still officially sanctioned.

Basically, the forces of liberalism that are crushing traditional Roman Catholic piety are the same forces that unleashed the sex-abuse scandal within the church. As long as the leadership rejects traditional ideals of holiness and piety, nothing will be done to assure that holy men, and not those with lax sexual attitudes, dominate the priesthood.

Locally, Fr. Daniel Johnson, the kindly, traditionalist priest who led St. Mary’s by the Sea for 25 years, has retired. His retirement, and the retirement of the Tridentine Mass with him, is heartbreaking news to St. Mary’s parishioners.

It’s a mean-spirited act for the bishop to deny the parishioners the mass they love so much. The diocese says permission for the mass was granted for the priest only, and it retires with him. But the diocese could, if it wanted to, pass the permission on to someone else.

This is standard fare, however, in the bitter war that is waged behind the scenes within the church. In reality, there are two churches co-existing uncomfortably together. There’s the traditional Catholic Church, with its unwavering support for church traditions and theology.

That’s the world of Fr. Johnson and St. Mary’s by the Sea.

Then there’s the “progressive” church, with its emphasis on “social justice,” and its desire to make church teachings fit with modern sensibilities. I call it the Kumbaya Church.

That’s the world of the diocese leadership.

Since Vatican II, the church council that adopted reforms, the left has been ascendant. Social and theological liberals have used the “spirit” of Vatican II to advance their agenda, and have succeeded, despite the traditional emphasis in far-away Rome.

As Catholic author Michael Rose argued in his blockbuster book, “Goodbye Good Men,” the liberals gained control of many seminaries and kept tradition-minded men out of the priesthood. That’s the root of the sexual-abuse scandal: The success of the left in driving out “good men” and replacing them with priests with different standards.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
continued

**

From article

The proof is in the pudding. **The more liberal the diocese, the fewer the men interested in priestly vocations. Only in the most traditional dioceses are there large number of people pursuing the priesthood.**At St. Mary’s by the Sea, Fr. Johnson took over a congregation of 400 people 25 years ago, and it is now 1,500 families strong.

Is the growth because the church has the traditional liturgy and doesn’t soft-sell its principles?

“Of course,” Fr. Johnson told me.

Yet, as Fr. Johnson said, “the diocese reaches out to everyone but we are barely tolerated [by the diocese].”

“The old mass, in particular, emphasizes the real presentation at Calvary,” he said. “The pope said we have to get back to the idea of sacrifice rather than a fraternal banquet.”

**One never hears diocese officials talk that way. They use the language of political correctness and ecumenism.**I recall the photograph I was sent by one local Catholic of Bishop Tod Brown yanking (he says gently pulling) a middle-aged woman up by her arm, as the woman tried to receive communion from him while she was kneeling. The bishop has a firm policy against kneeling before communion.

Last summer, the bishop insisted that two priests credibly accused of downloading child pornography on their computer were not in violation of the diocese’s zero-tolerance policy on sexual abuse. That’s why the person who sent me the photograph penciled in a caption: "Bishop Brown: light-handed on child porn - but heavy-handed on kneeling for communion!!"

That’s a strange disconnect: apparent laxity toward misbehavior, yet intolerance toward attempts at holiness. It’s typical. When Mel Gibson’s “The Passion” was released, traditional Catholics were ecstatic. But the Diocese of Orange spokesman called the movie tedious and offered this snide review in the newspaper: “If you are of the bent that feels that graphic suffering makes you feel the terrible sinner that you are and Jesus is saving you, then this is going to be a very big plus in your favor when you see the movie.”

Now the diocese is taking away the Tridentine Mass at St. Mary’s. In a letter to a parishioner, the diocese said the parishioners should accept the decision with an obedient heart. But given the Vatican has said dioceses should be generous in allowing such masses, a reasonable question is raised about who is not being obedient.

“Bishop Tod Brown has sent out a survey asking O.C. Catholics for suggestions … to help him accomplish Thesis No. 4 of his ‘Covenant With the Faithful,’ the pledge to ‘work collaboratively with all members of the diocese,’” said St. Mary’s parishioner Teri Carpentier. "If Bishop Brown sincerely cares about his people, why will he not listen to the hundreds of parishioners at St. Mary’s by the Sea and hundreds of other faithful Catholics who signed a petition to retain the Tridentine Mass at St. Mary’s. … What is the harm that is done in retaining it?"

**Such is the divide within the Roman Catholic Church. **Unfortunately, the church leadership lacks the courage and wisdom to bridge it.

lewrockwell.com/ocregist…lic-divide.html

**
 
What has happened to this parish is sad. :crying:

Kathie :bowdown:
 
Why isn’t there a pastor for over a year? That is really suspicious.
 
If the writer of the article is representative of the sentiments expressed in the parish, maybe the bishop sees it as dealing with dissent! The author seems very hostile to the Church and the Mass of Paul VI (once again, cannot support one without denigrating the other:rolleyes: ). Parishes that have the Indult are NOT supposed to use it as a forum to critique or denigrate the Mass of Paul VI or the local ordinary. The last line is very telling: “**Such is the divide within the Roman Catholic Church. ****Unfortunately, the church leadership lacks the courage and wisdom to bridge it.” **Who’s he criticising here, the bishop or the pope? Also, I seem to recall that most of the priests who predated on children were rather old, and I think if you examine the issue, you’ll find that they were raised in and ordained in the pre-Vatican II Church. The article’s author is making huge leaps in logic and attempting to draw connections that cannot reasonably be made.

That said, why don’t the people of the parish petition the bishop for redress? He probably won’t grant it, but they can then retain a canon lawyer, approach the appropriate dicastery in Rome, and at least insure that the Holy See knows this kind of “pastoral” care is being inflicted on a portion of Christ’s flock. PJPII desired a generous application of the Indult.

I was just in San Juan Cap. and Huntington Beach this weekend. Where does the Latin Mass happen at San Juan, the Basillica or the Serra Chapel?
 
Let me give you a background about St Marys by the Sea parish. While it did host the indult in Orange County, it also hosted 4 other Sunday Masses that were Novus Ordo, but celebrated in a traditional manner such as using the altar rail for communion, communion under one species, no EMHCs and no altar girls. These things are allowed, but the bishop after taking away the indult(and by the way there were over 1,000 singatures collected begging the bishop to keep the indult in place), the Bishop is now forceing the parish to put in place all of these liturgical “innovations” to make it identical to the other parishes in the diocese, despite the fact that such things as communion under both species, EMHCs and altar girls are optional. Now how can people who attend the Novus Ordo be in any way, shape or form be considered disobidient to a pastoral council such as Vatican II?

Anyways, Bp. Brown is basically destroying this parish, he is showing an extreme lack of charity to those who prefer both the old rite and a reverent celebration of the new rite.
40.png
JKirkLVNV:
If the writer of the article is representative of the sentiments expressed in the parish, maybe the bishop sees it as dealing with dissent! The author seems very hostile to the Church and the Mass of Paul VI (once again, cannot support one without denigrating the other:rolleyes: ). Parishes that have the Indult are NOT supposed to use it as a forum to critique or denigrate the Mass of Paul VI or the local ordinary. The last line is very telling: “**Such is the divide within the Roman Catholic Church. ****Unfortunately, the church leadership lacks the courage and wisdom to bridge it.” **Who’s he criticising here, the bishop or the pope? Also, I seem to recall that most of the priests who predated on children were rather old, and I think if you examine the issue, you’ll find that they were raised in and ordained in the pre-Vatican II Church. The article’s author is making huge leaps in logic and attempting to draw connections that cannot reasonably be made.

That said, why don’t the people of the parish petition the bishop for redress? He probably won’t grant it, but they can then retain a canon lawyer, approach the appropriate dicastery in Rome, and at least insure that the Holy See knows this kind of “pastoral” care is being inflicted on a portion of Christ’s flock. PJPII desired a generous application of the Indult.

I was just in San Juan Cap. and Huntington Beach this weekend. Where does the Latin Mass happen at San Juan, the Basillica or the Serra Chapel?
Click to expand...
 
One might note that St Mary’s sits on some very valuable property. :rolleyes:
 
40.png
JNB:
Let me give you a background about St Marys by the Sea parish. While it did host the indult in Orange County, it also hosted 4 other Sunday Masses that were Novus Ordo, but celebrated in a traditional manner such as using the altar rail for communion, communion under one species, no EMHCs and no altar girls. These things are allowed, but the bishop after taking away the indult(and by the way there were over 1,000 singatures collected begging the bishop to keep the indult in place), the Bishop is now forceing the parish to put in place all of these liturgical “innovations” to make it identical to the other parishes in the diocese, despite the fact that such things as communion under both species, EMHCs and altar girls are optional. Now how can people who attend the Novus Ordo be in any way, shape or form be considered disobidient to a pastoral council such as Vatican II?

Anyways, Bp. Brown is basically destroying this parish, he is showing an extreme lack of charity to those who prefer both the old rite and a reverent celebration of the new rite.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the information. That didn’t come out in the article’s tone, however. I’ve heard questionable things about the bishop. I’ve no way to verify them. It would seem to me that 1000 people would be enough to sustain a Mass. There are canon law societies (at least 2) that are willing to help the laity when there are problems such as this (I think one is Saint Joseph Canon Law Society or something like that). The old Holy Father wanted the Indult applied generously. I assume that means with a good heart on the part of the ordinary. I also assume that means that if 25 people call for it, the ordinary could reasonably deny it, due to manpower and resource shortages, but even then, surely one parish could be found to address the desires for one Indult Mass. I’m guessing that bishops, like everyone else, don’t want their boss (the Holy See) noticing them in anyway that isn’t good. I bet if enough waves were made properly, through the proper channels, the bishop would become a bit more accommodating. If, however, he can present evidence that those who desire the Indult are fomenting dissent, disparaging the Mass of Paul VI, etc., the Vatican might side with him.
 
40.png
JKirkLVNV:
I was just in San Juan Cap. and Huntington Beach this weekend. Where does the Latin Mass happen at San Juan, the Basillica or the Serra Chapel?
Click to expand...
The Serra Chapel.

Deacon Ed
 
Catholics must become proactive ( sounds liberal ) In defendig their rights inside the church.The scandal has proven, that regretfuly.Blind obedience to the bishops is a mistake.
Prayer is nice,but. Five hundered letters to the Pope about whats going on in your diocese might be better.
 
Have any of you noticed that we (as Americans) have different rules from Rome than the rest of the world? Do you notice that our churches are become more liberal and less reverent? Do you think that Rome might be letting our church suffer sothat it will become smaller? Why does the rest of the world HAVE to abstain from meat on Fridays and we have to do some sort of pennance, doea not have to be abstaining? Why do we get to not observe Holy days of obligation if they fall on a Saturday or Monday, yet the rest of the world does? Do you see a pattern here? Less time in church, more time for ourselves, destruction of the Catholic church in America. Just thought I would take this opportunity to point out a few things. 👍
 
40.png
Iohannes:
Why isn’t there a pastor for over a year? That is really suspicious.
Click to expand...
I don’t know for sure, but I suspect that no priest wants to step into this situation.

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon Ed:
I don’t know for sure, but I suspect that no priest wants to step into this situation.

Deacon Ed
Click to expand...
I suspect any priest who revealed a real burning desire to be pastor of St. Mary’s would automatically be pegged as a traditionalist or a sympathizer of the traditionalists. It seems to me if a priest wants to move up in this diocese he can do it a whole lot quicker if he’s progressive.
 
Unless a miracle happens, that parish sadly looks like a goner. I really hate to say that. For those who have not dealth with Ecclesiatical politics in SoCal. It is nasty! They will suspend or remove a priest who is too traditional while a priest who denies the immaculate conception is in good standing. I kid you not.

Not even money can buy them out. They really hate the TLM down here.

And yes, the indult folks appealed to CArdinal Hoyos and PCED. Sofar nothing yet.
 
40.png
Iohannes:
Unless a miracle happens, that parish sadly looks like a goner. I really hate to say that. For those who have not dealth with Ecclesiatical politics in SoCal. It is nasty! They will suspend or remove a priest who is too traditional while a priest who denies the immaculate conception is in good standing. I kid you not.

Not even money can buy them out. They really hate the TLM down here.

And yes, the indult folks appealed to CArdinal Hoyos and PCED. Sofar nothing yet.
Click to expand...
Sounds like something out of the Cardinal Mahony playbook.

While these people profess the same Catholic faith of 2000 years, and whom desire to practice it in a similar manner as their forefathers, they are for the most part treated by the ultra-modernist SoCal hierarchy as heretics.

Its as though they want us to forget our history and patrimony, as they appear to of themselves, “throw off the shackles of the middle ages” as their saying goes. But I say to that “Forget your history, you forget who you are”.
 
IT is really sad down here, they are after any traditionalist, or try to keep them down. They make no distinctions between indult and rad trad. To them, indult, SSPX are almost the same.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top