How do you "submit to your husband"?

[kittery]

Wow KCatheMommy! Great advice on how to communicate in a non-argumentative way. Thank you! I never would have thought to show him that I am honoring him by looking out for the betterment of all of us. I really think that that would have helped out the whole situation had I spoken from that place instead of a defensive place.

Thanks for the tips.

 

[luvmykids]

I wonder why we accept heads of offices or companies…but not in our families. We trust a stranger with our 401k’s and futures…but not our husbands with the household? I mean…at my place of employement, there is ONE CEO of the company…not several. Yeah, there are other managers, who manage their corner of the world…but the company has one ‘head.’ Kinda makes ya scratch your head, doesn’t it?http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/1.gif

Probably because the man in charge of our 401K and heads of offices are getting paid to do that. They could also go to jail or lose their job, if they screw up our money or cheat and steal. As far as our husbands go, it’s not even illegal anymore to cheat on your spouse!

 

[DRVSVS_VERAVIR]

Bottom line: Jesus was not an American. He was not an egalitarian. The husband represents Christ, thus you obey him as you obey Christ. Likewise, we obey our priests, bishops, and the Pope as we obey Christ. Even if they make fumbling, stupid decisions it is not in OUR authority to question them.

So long as the decision being made is not immoral, we must obey. Stupid decisions and even, yes folks, UNSAFE decisions, are not necessarily IMMORAL decisions. Life has suffering and sacrifice. That’s where our souls are truly tested and refined.

Let me add that a magnanimous extension of Christlike charity to a brother who has made horrible decisions and now needs help is most certainly hazardous and dangerous. But what about Christ’s love is NOT dangerous? Christ has not called us to live safe lives. Did God not love Job? Look at the trials He afflicted Job with.

The American desire to pad life with plastic and rubber has many attractive looking qualities that are also horrible pitfalls for souls who need to make courageous decisions.

 

[kbharbert]

Wives submit to your husbands as to the Lord. Husband, love your wives AS Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her.

In otherwords, we are to follow our husband when they are leading as Christ led-- servant leadership. My husband would never lead me into physical or financial peril because he cherishes me.

Your three examples show a lack of maturity on the part of your husband. If he was truly loving you in a sacrificial way he would not have proposed ANY of those items-- ex-con brother moving in, him taking a pay cut while you are pregnant, or you living in an unsafe house.

Yes, we wives are to defer to our husbands’ spiritual leadership (IF THEY ARE LEADING SPIRITUALLY), but not be doormats for every whim.

**not meaning to be argumentative but…
the OP didn’t give any reasons for WHY her husband wanted to make the choices she listed.
to say that HE was being less than mature is unfair.
in example 1—brother/prison—it might be that the husband was trying to help his brother in a way he felt would work the best.
to say that one can not be husband and wife sexually because there is someone else in the house is just silly.
while it may not have been an ideal situation, many families have multiple family members living in the same home and do just fine.
example 2—unsafe house—a fixer upper is a fixer upper, children or not. while steep stairways etc. can be menacing, that doesn’t mean that the overall picture of the future should be overlooked.
i’m sure the husband didn’t want his children in an unsafe evironment either but i also feel his attachment to the house and his vision of it as his familys home should have held more weight.
there SHOULD have been discussion as to making unsafe areas safer.
example 3—less money—sometimes a less paying job is better than one that pays more money.
no—the bills don’t get paid easier, the house doesn’t get remodeled faster BUT…again, there was no mention of WHY the husband was thinking what he was.

overall, it SEEMS as if the husband is ATTEMPTING to be the leader in the OP’s marriage and isn’t really getting much of a chance to be one.
it doesn’t appear that her husband is demanding she be a doormat but it does seem that he is expressing his need to be more of the ‘man of the house’.
further discussion needs to be had between them and both need to listen and really hear what needs the other is expressing.
**

 

[rush176]

I’m not going to attempt to add anything to the good advice already shared by the Godly women here. I am just speaking as a man who is lucky enough to still be married to the same Godly woman for 26 years. We got married young and neither of us really knew how to fulfill our new roles but time and several disasters have helped push us back to prayer and the Church for guidance. Now I understand better than ever how important it is for me to lead my family in lots of areas. A good leader is one who listens to everyone who he is resposible for and tries to communicate with everyone why he decides things in certain ways. My wife grew up in a home with an overbearing mother and an alchoholic father. He drank himself to death by her 14th birthday and her mother was bitter about this and many other things the remainder of her life. Trying to merge her background and expectations of marriage with mine was very difficult but through lots of prayer and false starts we are happier now than we have ever been.

Now I understand better what the Church teaches about this subject of wives submitting to their husbands. My role in our family is to protect and defend my family from all the bad stuff in the world. That includes being involved in my childrens lives and talking to them about the choices they make. That includes protecting my wife and children from harm, as best I can. I think men are made by God to be better at this just like the average man is larger and physically stronger than the average woman. I see my role as one of providing a safe home for my family to live and grow into whatever God has planned for them. This includes not allowing dangerous people access to the house and making sure it is a safe place to be. My wife has taken the “leap of faith” and defers to me so that there is one final decision maker in our home. She has stuggled with this due to her mothers and the liberal worlds influence as well as watching me screw up many times. I understand how hard it is for her to trust me with the final decision making authority and it humbles me to know I also have the authority to destroy our family’s financial future. That responsibility weighs heavily on me sometimes but it feels “right” somehow to provide that security to my family. That is one of the many ways I serve my wife and family. Many times I am humbled by this faith they have in me and feel totally unworthy. But at the end of the day it is my job to do this and I trust in God to help me do my best.

 

[actorgirl]

So long as the decision being made is not immoral, we must obey. Stupid decisions and even, yes folks, UNSAFE decisions, are not necessarily IMMORAL decisions. Life has suffering and sacrifice. That’s where our souls are truly tested and refined.

.

never. Although the submit thing makes my eye twitch. I understand the notion when the husband is proven a good “leader” But I will not blindly obey something stupid. becuase I am not stupid.

But, the again, I don’t obey, I may agree, but not obey. I’m 33 years old. Last people I obeyed were my parents.

 

[jman507]

never. Although the submit thing makes my eye twitch. I understand the notion when the husband is proven a good “leader” But I will not blindly obey something stupid. becuase I am not stupid.

But, the again, I don’t obey, I may agree, but not obey. I’m 33 years old. Last people I obeyed were my parents.

I think I might want your parents word on that.

My opinion is that in order to be a good leader, you first need to be able to obey.

 

[Eliza10]

I am responding top Kittery’s post, and have not read this whole thread yet.

I was married to a man who wanted to be in head of the marriage, and I supported that because it was taught by our Evangelical faith, and I believed it was God’s will for him to be the “head”. This translated as him having the final say, which in reality meant: we did what he wanted.

That meant we did what he wanted when he said we “couldn’t afford” for us to get pregnant, for years, and needed me to keep bringing home my professional full-time salary - even though it broke my heart and brought me many tears (which he saw).

Also, we pooled our money but he made all the decisions about it. And when he wanted to buy a house in the country, very, very far from my job, we did, and I took on the long commute. He expected me to do, and I cooperated with this expectation: all the housework, cooking, cleaning, laundry, and shopping, as well as regular yardwork - not mowing (he did that with the rider) but time-consuming bush-trimming and weeding, and also all the interior painting (it all needed done), and also the porch and door and window painting, allthose things without any of his help, in addition to my fulltime work, and long commute. and so I did. He filled his free time with time-consuming hobbies that did not include me.

I wanted things to be different. I knew things were wrong, but he controlled the situation with his anger and withholding.

So you see, all his decisions served him, not us. The Christian counselors we went to when I was at the end of my rope never saw this - they saw only the one sure thing: that he was the “head”, and I as wife needed to submit to his “leadership”.

When our baby came, I stayed home. This is because we could certainly afford it, and because about this I was adament, and fortunately, for this, we had the support of our Evangelical church. But he was restless, and resentful, and compared us to other double-income professionals in his office, who were buying, upgrading, vacationing, and investing. He began dreaming of owning a big bass boat, and was unhappy we couldn’t afford it. But he had more men-toys than any of our friends.

I could see that his leadership was not serving the family, only himself, and that was a disservice to us as a couple, and all of us as a family.

Our marriage ended in divorce, after nineteen years. I had thought I was divorce-proof, but it takes two to commit to a marraige vow, not one. Strains on the marraige satus-quo were having the baby, and my meeting the baby’s needs, and withdrawing of my cooperation with verbal abuse (I had a counselors advice, and withdrew my cooperation in a very gentle, firm, non-threatening way). This last was too much, and he secretly went out and found another person (also married) and established a realtionship and lined up to marry her before the intent to divorce me was revealed.

I was shocked at the time, but I realized later that this “doing whatever serves me” was no surprise - he was only living as he always had. Only I had always been in denial - I wanted to believe he was good at heart, in spite of the clear evidence in front of me all our married life. (I victimized myslf with wishful, hopeful thinking).

During the difficult cohabitation during the proceedings, I was seeing clearly who he was, and who in fact he had always been. Once, during this time, he shouted at me with with a fanatically desparate insistance: “You don’t matter!”. This was him telling me my place; and he was furious I did not show any sign of accepting this pronouncement. But, in fact, he was expresing his core belief - one he had always lived by.

You see the danger in giving all “headship” to one who lives with these core beleifs and this selfish orientation?

So, Kittery, I am not saying your case is like mine. Only that what you shared here displays a marked selfishness on your husband’s part. He does not seem to be putting your needs as a priority, or the baby’s, when he has his “choice” in the matters you mention. He is being selfish. I know that it is not right for you to “enable” or be a “codependant” to his selfishness. You do not want to cooperate and support his sin. So, if you can’t help him see the selfishness of his choices, a counselor perhaps can.

Also I tell you my story to warn you from getting caught up in any Evangelical teaching about husbandly-headship. *The Evangelical way of teaching this supported my husbands selfishness and my copperation with the same. *And it will make a mess of your marriage and your life and your husband’s!

So I urge you: look to solid Catholic teaching on husbandly headship. There you can’t go wrong.

…http://www.optimalearning.com/images/artposters/pamela.jpg

 

[FLCathMom]

To the pp: I am sorry you had such a bad experience, but what your husband was asking you to do was immoral, the only exception to the rule that you must obey your husband. Contraception is immoral, as is postponing pregnancy for any other than a serious reason.

 

[Eliza10]

To the pp: I am sorry you had such a bad experience, but what your husband was asking you to do was immoral, the only exception to the rule that you must obey your husband. Contraception is immoral, as is postponing pregnancy for any other than a serious reason.

Yes, it was a bad experience, but there have been worse, like losing a child, or having a child experience cancer. Many other things!

Yes, you are right, what he was asking me was immoral. If only I had been Catholic! Any Catholic would have told me.

But I didn’t talk to Catholics about this. Those years I thought those Catholics weren’t real Christians. So I was shielded from the whole revealed truth of God. I had only the part: the Evangelical part. With its errors.

I wanted to do God’s will. I was seeking to do the moral and right thing. Above my own desires, I wanted to do God’s will. My husbands choices seemed wrong and immoral to me. Therefore, over the years, I consulted my pastors, my pastors’ wives, older women in the church, the Bible, Bible studies, and Bible conferences, Christian radio, and Christian marriage conferences, Evangelcial books on marriage, whenever the suituation frustrated me.

All of these sources (Evangelical ones) told me that my job as a wife was to submit to my husband’s leadership. That was me doing Gods will. God would take care of the rest. In fact, I was often told that my doing Gods will would melt my husbands heart, and it would make him do God’s will.

But I could see that my doing my husbands will was only making him more selfish. So I had to live on pure faith. A faith that didn’t make sense to me. (Only much later, too late, I discovered the Catholic view of conscience, which* did* make sense. Also other Catholic truths shed light on all this, after the fact).

So I tell my story for Kittery, and others, who are tempted to gravitate towards that sensible-sounding, seemingly Bible-taught submission teaching, which a heart desireing to do God’s will, to do what is right. I say: if it comes from a Protestant source, its a can be a terrible snare! In my case, it hurt me, my husband, our marriage, and our child.

I often wonder how it could have been different if I had been exposed to Catholic teaching instead of Evangelcial. And especially if I had revcieved the graces God intends all of us Christians to have, the ordinary graces he pours out through His Holy Sacraments He entrusted through His One, Holy, and Apostolic Church.

Likely I would have seen and stood for truth early on. Maybe it would have changed things. Or, maybe my husband would have seen this situation was not serving him and would have left sooner. What the outcome would have been I will never know.

http://www.lems.brown.edu/vision/people/leymarie/Images/Paintings/Leonardo/leonardo2b.gif

 

[DRVSVS_VERAVIR]

never. Although the submit thing makes my eye twitch. I understand the notion when the husband is proven a good “leader” But I will not blindly obey something stupid. becuase I am not stupid.

But, the again, I don’t obey, I may agree, but not obey. I’m 33 years old. Last people I obeyed were my parents.

Again, your personal intelligence is not the question here. God is not an equal opportunity employer. He has created nature hierarchically and has placed man as the authority of the household. The Pope may make a decision I don’t agree with, but if it is a decision that is part of the Church, then it is a decision I must obey because I am NOT the Pope. I am NOT the authority. I might be smarter, in fact. That’s not the point.

The point is the created ORDER of things, not who’s got “talent.” Such individualism is nowhere found in the teachings of Christ, and is the fuel that has caused so much of the rebellions against authorities in our modern centuries. Even John Paul II while a priest and bishop in Poland submitted to the Communist authorities in all areas where he thought were not a matter of principle and morality.

God did not say “wives submit to your husband if they’ve proven themselves effective leaders in their field.” And it is this same rebellion from authority that has caused all our woes in history, for submission is the linked to the greatest Catholic virtue: humility. Rebellion is linked to the chief, captial vice: Pride. The satanic vice.

 

[dcgrad_2002]

Please all husbands and wives read Pope John Paul II’s apostolic letter, “On the dignity and vocation of women” esp .pg 83-85 of the booklet or paragraph 24.

 

[sandraladeda]

As I was brousing thru a gift shop a couple weeks ago, I found a book, The 7 Love Agreements by Douglas Weiss, PhD. I actually bought the book so I could remember the 7 agreements, which make a great deal of sense to me. Best of all, one partner can make these changes, and it can benefit the marriage.

1. Faithfulness I will be faithful to my spouse at all times and in all circumstances.
2. Patience I will not try to change things about my spouse that I do not like but will modify my behaviours that annoy my partner.
3. Forgiveness When I have offended my spouse, I will quickly ask forgiveness, and I will forgive my spouse’s offences in my heart even before being asked.
4. Service I will anticipate my spouse’s spiritual, emotional, physical, and material needs and will do everything I can to meet them.
5. Respect I will not act or speak in a way that demeans, ridicules, or embarrasses my spouse.
6. Kindness I will be kind to my spouse, eliminating any trace of meanness from my behaviour and speech.
7. Celebration I will appreciate my spouse’s gifts and attributes and celebrate them personally and publicly.

For me, submitting to these standards is the right thing to do - to put my husband first, treat him like he is the best man on earth, and to love him with great constancy and commitment.

For a woman living in the world in 2007, it is not easy to be submissive - our society encourages us to get what we want, not to take any nonsense from anyone, not to sell ourselves short, etc. I have made some changes to my behaviour (many months ago, before I found the book!) and it is interesting how, paradoxically, what we gain, when we give up some “control”.

Looking at one example given by the OP, a good question, looking back, might be “what is the worst case if I had said yes to my brother in law living with us?” You might have expressed your concerns to your husband about the loss of privacy, etc., but followed that by saying “if it is important to you, I’ll welcome him into our home” Maybe, upon hearing the concerns, your husband may have agreed with you. Or maybe you two could have come up with some rules for the brother in law - he can stay for 6 months and no longer, he has to do his share of the yardwork, he has to pay a nominal rent, he has to obey these rules of our household, etc.

Would that make you feel “submissive”, to the point of thinking you had given in to something simply intolerable or offensive?

imho

 

[actorgirl]

God did not say “wives submit to your husband if they’ve proven themselves effective leaders in their field.” And it is this same rebellion from authority that has caused all our woes in history, for submission is the linked to the greatest Catholic virtue: humility. Rebellion is linked to the chief, captial vice: Pride. The satanic vice.

Your not saying that if I don’t blindly do something my husband want, no matter how stupid it is, pridefully.

ex. I’m driving. He suggested that we take Street A. I KNOW street A will take 20 extra minutes b/c of traffic. I say uuh no, this way is better.

 

[sandraladeda]

Your not saying that if I don’t blindly do something my husband want, no matter how stupid it is, pridefully.

ex. I’m driving. He suggested that we take Street A. I KNOW street A will take 20 extra minutes b/c of traffic. I say uuh no, this way is better.

But what have you really lost if you go his way? You’re not giving up a kidney, for heavens sake, it’s the choice of whether to take a certain street or not. So what if it is slower? Could you not say “Against my belief that this way is slower, I will go YOUR way” and then do it, wih a smile and a sense of humor. If it is, indeed slower, he may say “you were right” or he may not. Hopefully you will have the maturity to not rub it in!

I suggest an experiment - give in on these little differences of opinion, try it for a week, or a month. See how surprisingly easy it is to let go of those little things we try to control that do no matter. See how he may just begin to compromise too!

 

[kittery]

Looking at one example given by the OP, a good question, looking back, might be “what is the worst case if I had said yes to my brother in law living with us?” You might have expressed your concerns to your husband about the loss of privacy, etc., but followed that by saying “if it is important to you, I’ll welcome him into our home” Maybe, upon hearing the concerns, your husband may have agreed with you. Or maybe you two could have come up with some rules for the brother in law - he can stay for 6 months and no longer, he has to do his share of the yardwork, he has to pay a nominal rent, he has to obey these rules of our household, etc.

Would that make you feel “submissive”, to the point of thinking you had given in to something simply intolerable or offensive?

imho

I really felt like if he wouldn’t consider my very strong feelings on this issue, and come to the conclusion that it would not be wise to have him move in with us, that I would be letting something very detrimental happen to us. This brother was a sex offender, who I had met only a couple of times in prison. I was VERY uncomfortable with the idea. I knew if I said “I feel strongly against it, but do as you see fit”, he would have moved him in. He has an extremely hard time telling people no, an exponentially more difficult time telling family no. It wasn’t fun for me to say no. What was the worst that could have happened? The world wouldn’t have ended over it, but I do think that our marriage would have suffered. Marriage (especially in the beginning) was hard enough.

On the job thing, I did, however, exactly as you suggested. I told him that it scared me to have a baby on the way, losing my income, and him taking a lesser-paying job all at the same time. But I told him that if he couldn’t be happy any other way, to go ahead and apply for some positions, which he did. He interviewed a few times, but it never went any farther than that. Once my income was gone and we had our first, it was clear that we couldn’t afford less pay.

Through the course of this discussion, I think I’ve clarified my view on submission. And yes, I must say that subscribing to the Catholic version of submission is a beautiful expression of true love, compared to the evangelical interpretation of submission. God gave woman to man, not so he could have someone to push around and fulfill his own whims, but in order to give the spouses someone who would help purify, sanctify, inspire, challenge, and love each other on the ultimate journey to eternity. A wife who gets in the way of that end goal is most definitely not submissive.

 

[actorgirl]

“**Against my belief that this way is slower, I will go YOUR way” and then do **it, wih a smile and a sense of humor. If it is, indeed slower, he may say “you were right” or he may not. Hopefully you will have the maturity to not rub it in!

I suggest an experiment - give in on these little differences of opinion, try it for a week, or a month. See how surprisingly easy it is to let go of those little things we try to control that do no matter. See how he may just begin to compromise too!

uuhh no, especially if we are running late.

I DO compromise. He compromises as well. That’s what a marriage is, imo. I’m not going to defer JUST b/c he is a XY and had the good fortune to be married to me.

 

[ColleenG]

I had a husband who was extremely selfish and fiscally irresponsible and it was everything I could do to keep us in our home and out of bankruptcy; I wanted desperately to stay home with our kids but I had to work at a job that I hated to pay for his eBay addiction. We finally divorced after 16 years of marriage because this behavior, his demeaning remarks toward me, and more that I won’t go into, were not enough abuse for him to dish out; he had to go out find himself a girlfriend so he could feel like a “real man”. Now I have my annulment in hand and someday would like to re-marry, but just thinking about being submissive makes me tremble with anger. I love the Church and want to obey God, but I often think that I would rather be drawn and quartered than be under a man’s thumb again. After reading so many of your postings, I feel like we women were given brains and are told not to use them; just lay down ladies and take it. I just don’t get it! Perhaps the way to remedy this immature and selfish behavior on the part of so many husbands is to have a special class just for the man during the six months we are required to go through pre-marriage counseling by the priest. In this men’s class they could be taught that they are not to be tyrants, and that they must earn the respect of their wives by being selfless, courageous and kind; then maybe they will be aloud to lead.

 

[kbharbert]

I had a husband who was extremely selfish and fiscally irresponsible and it was everything I could do to keep us in our home and out of bankruptcy

**i feel for you and all women who go through what you did.
too often though, the word ‘submission’ gets tied up with the immaturity and irresponsiblity of the supposed men in question.
the truth is: when the man is truly a God fearing ‘MAN’ and really wants what is best for his family, submission isn’t a chore.
yes…we women ARE given brains AND we are expected to use them.
being a helpmate to our husbands; being a good mother; making a house a home isn’t easy nor is it mindless work.
just as a king must take into account all the problems, wishes and hopes of his subjects, so must a husband take into account his wife and children.
‘submission’ is often thought of as a ‘do this; do that; it will be MY way’ sort of thing and it isn’t.
in a truly submissive marriage, the wife freely gives her opinions and has full trust that the final decisions made by her husband are A) spiritually led and B) in her and their children’s best interests.

**

 

[THutch04]

So long as the decision being made is not immoral, we must obey. Stupid decisions and even, yes folks, UNSAFE decisions, are not necessarily IMMORAL decisions. Life has suffering and sacrifice. That’s where our souls are truly tested and refined.

I respectfully have to disagree with you on this point. Making stupid decisions is one thing. Making UNSAFE decisions (ones that could put your FAMILY in danger) is another. As being representative of Christ, one shouldn’t force dangerous situations upon his family where his wife or children could be hurt.