How do you think Eastern vs. Western Catholics approach their faith?

[Vico]

How did iconoclasm prevent the progress of statuary in the Byzantine world, especially if the only Byzantine example of a statue to the Theotokos was carved two to three hundred years after the Triumph of Holy Orthodoxy?

How can you obtain a good understanding of art history from one example of Byzantine art?

You don’t. Classic Greek style was used till some time after the Sack of Constantinople under the rule of the Palaiologoi. During the iconoclastic controversy (715-843) many examples of Byzantine art were destroyed. Following this the Macedonian art period began (843-1025) when the ban was lifted. Much Byzantine art was destroyed in the sack of Constantinople 1204. It was in Russia that Orthodox Christian freedom in the use of images survived.

See this article:
westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/06/eastern-orthodox-statues.html

“The same may be said of the practical disappearance of statues as opposed to icons over large areas of the Orthodox Church. The lingering memory of the Iconoclasts encouraged reticence and the Moslem conquest froze Orthodox art in its most limited form”.

 

[Silyosha]

Thats the quick and simple explanation for it. But really it just reflects the view of the East vs. the West. The West hopes to humanize the image Jesus and the saints. The objective is to tell us they were on earth, therefore we can be as holy as they are. They walked the ground we walked, they ate food as we do. In 3D such as statues, we see them as physical, as we see ourselves and other people. We are made to realize that we too in this life can be holy as they were on earth.

In the East the view is always looking into the divine, looking forward to our place in heaven. Icons serve as windows from earth into heaven, we see Jesus and the Saints depicted as they are in heaven. That is why the symbolism in icons is about who they are now in their glory in heaven.

Good response…the only issue I have with it is the claim that the West seeks to establish that we can be “as holy as” Our Lady, Christ, etc…We can potentially be as holy as saints, but I don’t think it’s accurate to interpret that the focus on the human nature of Christ, etc. is an effort to make him more “like” us. In my experience, the emphasis on the human nature goes hand in hand with the Godly nature; you really can’t explain one without the other. I think this is emphasized to help people become closer to God, but not to, so to speak, dumb it down and detract from the holiness.
Otherwise, your comments about the “windows into heaven” was really beautiful and eye-opening; I always liked the idea of using a transfigured sense of reality in art to depict the divine, but I’d never thought to put it into those words before. I think altogether, I love the use of statues in the churches, but icons are just the greatest, very reverential, very holy, awe-inspiring. I wish they were used more widely in American RCCs.
View attachment 9612 View attachment 9613
Such a difference…but both are beautiful, no?

 

[Silyosha]

The Greek Orthodox should use the exact same liturgy minus the prayers for the Pope in three of the litanies, though in practice they sometimes take lots of shortcuts. We are allowed to fill our Sunday obligation at any church where the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass or Divine Liturgy is said, including Orthodox churches - legitimate reasons given by the Pope for going to an Orthodox church are pretty liberal and broad, and specifically include “the desire to be better informed”, which would certainly count in your case.

The reason why statues are absolutely forbidden in all Eastern Catholic and Orthodox churches is that what is depicted is not the fallen earthly, humanly reality, but rather the transfigured, “deified”, heavenly reality. Hence to depict something three-dimensional or realistic-looking for us would be to deny the transfiguration of the world through divine grace.

As I said before, the way I like to think of it is that the Roman Church depicts the mystery of the Incarnation from the viewpoint of the world - hence churches are adorned with three-dimensional statues, the theology is very rigid, cataphatic, and philosophically grounded, and the mystery of the Eucharist is veiled in a reverential silence (the reverence and awe also being expressed through kneeling). In the East, the mysteries are depicted from the viewpoint of Heaven - all the images are stylized to represent the transfigured reality, the mystery of the Eucharist is veiled through an iconostasis depicting the heavenly host, the entire Liturgy is sung, the theology is more apophatic and emphasizes the paradoxes of the Faith, reverence is expressed through standing, and the congregation gets blessed (and makes the Sign of the Cross) hundreds of times (153 is the traditional number of times the priest and congregation are supposed to make the Sign of the Cross during one Liturgy) rather than just once or a few times as in the West.

Also, in the West statues are regarded simply as psychological or sentimental aids to devotion, whereas in the East icons are actually sacramentals - they actually make present the heavenly mysteries they reveal. Statues don’t do this. It looks silly to incense a statue, but every icon in the church will be incensed several times in each Liturgy.

Hmm…so, the East expressed awe through sound, the West through silence? That makes sense and fits with what I’ve seen in my experiences. I’m pretty sure we don’t make the SOTC 153 times but there are periods in the TLM where the priest (turned away from the congregation) makes it very rapidly in succession, often in the middle of words. I’ll have to look up the number sometime…or maybe I can just so along in the missal and count. Or not…
Does the priest in an Eastern Catholic mass turn away from the congregation like in the TLM? Is the same emphasis placed on the ad orientem posture?

 

[dcointin]

I would like to ask a supplementary question if I might:

What is the goal of the Christian life for Catholics, western and eastern?

 

[CatholicFireman]

To get to heaven and make sure my family does also.

 

[Cecilianus]

Hmm…so, the East expressed awe through sound, the West through silence? That makes sense and fits with what I’ve seen in my experiences. I’m pretty sure we don’t make the SOTC 153 times but there are periods in the TLM where the priest (turned away from the congregation) makes it very rapidly in succession, often in the middle of words. I’ll have to look up the number sometime…or maybe I can just so along in the missal and count. Or not…
Does the priest in an Eastern Catholic mass turn away from the congregation like in the TLM? Is the same emphasis placed on the ad orientem posture?

Yes; both the priest and the deacon always face the east with their backs to the congregation, except during the chanting of the Gospel (the Epistle however is chanted ad orientem by the subdeacon or reader standing near the back of the church) and of course the homily, the two processions, and the frequent blessings. The deacon also stands ad orientem on the congregation’s side of the iconastasis when he chants the litanies, facing the icon of Christ.

 

[Cecilianus]

I would like to ask a supplementary question if I might:

What is the goal of the Christian life for Catholics, western and eastern?

For Eastern Catholics as for you the goal is deification - becoming conformed to the likeness of Christ and partaking of His divine nature through the Energies of God.

In the West where there is no good Latin (or English!) word for “energeios” the same reality is usually expressed in terms of the Beatific Vision (seeing God “face-to-face”) in Heaven and our sanctification on Earth. Deification is a Catholic dogma in the West, however; e.g. the Novus Ordo Mass the priests (silently according to the rubrics; in a low audible voice in practice ) “May the mingling of this water and wine enable us to partake of His divinity, who humbled Himself to share in our humanity.”

 

[ConstantineTG]

Good response…the only issue I have with it is the claim that the West seeks to establish that we can be “as holy as” Our Lady, Christ, etc…We can potentially be as holy as saints, but I don’t think it’s accurate to interpret that the focus on the human nature of Christ, etc. is an effort to make him more “like” us.

Jesus did ask us to be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect. Not to say that we achieve the perfection of God which is impossible for us created beings, but that we strive to be worthy of God’s perfection.

In my experience, the emphasis on the human nature goes hand in hand with the Godly nature; you really can’t explain one without the other. I think this is emphasized to help people become closer to God, but not to, so to speak, dumb it down and detract from the holiness.

Of course, its just the emphasis of the philosophy that developed in the West. The emphasis is on the here and now, we’re flesh and blood. We try to emulate the lives of the Saints, what did they do to achieve their holiness. Not to detract from the divine, but just to show us a road map to get there by following the footsteps of those who are already there.

Otherwise, your comments about the “windows into heaven” was really beautiful and eye-opening; I always liked the idea of using a transfigured sense of reality in art to depict the divine, but I’d never thought to put it into those words before. I think altogether, I love the use of statues in the churches, but icons are just the greatest, very reverential, very holy, awe-inspiring. I wish they were used more widely in American RCCs.
View attachment 9612 View attachment 9613
Such a difference…but both are beautiful, no?

Thanks, but I can’t take credit for that, I just read it somewhere when trying to learn about icons. Iconography is beautiful and deep. What we see is just the beginning of what is on the icon. Every element in the icon has a symbolism, hand gestures, etc.

Yes, I wish for more iconography in RCC parishes as well. I got married in a small chapel called the Chapel of the Transfiguration. The back wall is a floor-to-ceiling stained glass of the Transfiguration in 3 panels, Christ, Elijah and Moses. Truly awesome.

 

[Seamus_L]

Thanks for posting that link about Orthodox statues, Vico. Sure made my day.

 

[dcointin]

Thanks for posting that link about Orthodox statues, Vico. Sure made my day.

I found that very interesting as well! I’ve asked Orthodox priests and laymen why we don’t use statuary, and the only answer I received was that it was outside our tradition. I think I’ll pose the same question on another forum I frequent and see what kind of answers I get.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I found that very interesting as well! I’ve asked Orthodox priests and laymen why we don’t use statuary, and the only answer I received was that it was outside our tradition. I think I’ll pose the same question on another forum I frequent and see what kind of answers I get.

Could it also be a result of the schism, to be more distinct from the other? I heard that before the iconostasis, it was common in the Byzantine Rite to use some sort of altar rail. But given the beauty of many iconostasis today I wouldn’t trade them in for any altar rail.

 

[Cecilianus]

Could it also be a result of the schism, to be more distinct from the other? I heard that before the iconostasis, it was common in the Byzantine Rite to use some sort of altar rail. But given the beauty of many iconostasis today I wouldn’t trade them in for any altar rail.

I’ve seen pictures churches with altar rails in front of iconastases.

My understanding was that before the iconostasis, there was simply a curtain, like in Armenian churches today.

 

[UnityofTrinity]

It is truly inspiring that both Orthodox and Catholic can come together and contemplate on our commonalities: the beauties of our liturgies, our arts, and the beauties of our Eucharists. Thus said, I think whether it is a statue, or an icon, both are as sacred, for each represent an another aspect of the cultural diversities that we share in the love of Christ our Lord.

 

[Silyosha]

It is truly inspiring that both Orthodox and Catholic can come together and contemplate on our commonalities: the beauties of our liturgies, our arts, and the beauties of our Eucharists. Thus said, I think whether it is a statue, or an icon, both are as sacred, for each represent an another aspect of the cultural diversities that we share in the love of Christ our Lord.

I agree. I’m so glad to have a resource avaliable to use to discuss all these things with other people.It’s really inspiring and empowering. I’ve learned a lot about other rites from this thread.

Anyway: So, is it fair to say that Eastern churches generally discourage the use of statues? For those who are a part of churches that observe this, do you wish statues were used, or do you agree? I think it’s interesting that the west uses both…particularly in Europe, but as I said, we use icons in our US church as well.

There are some very eastern aspects to the TLM, particularly in the Solemn High Mass. On the Feast of the Assumption, an icon of the Immaculate Heart was displayed to the congregation, incensed, and each of the three priest chanting the mass kissed it. (At least I think it was an icon; i’m not sure if that’s technically the correct term, but it looked like one, in a decorative “frame” and everything.) There’s a video of clips from it if you’re interested.
youtube.com/watch?v=xMrZ39QeKgY

Also…if anyone knows anything about music theory, are you familiar with the idea of the western sacred musical arrangement being “vertical” and the eastern arrangements being “horizontal”? I can actually tell that when I hear the two, but I don’t know the theory behind it…if you don’t know what I’m talking about, it’s okay…I know I’m being really vague.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I agree. I’m so glad to have a resource avaliable to use to discuss all these things with other people.It’s really inspiring and empowering. I’ve learned a lot about other rites from this thread.

Anyway: So, is it fair to say that Eastern churches generally discourage the use of statues? For those who are a part of churches that observe this, do you wish statues were used, or do you agree? I think it’s interesting that the west uses both…particularly in Europe, but as I said, we use icons in our US church as well.

I think today its generally viewed that statues is not part of the tradition. It was there in the past but it hasn’t been for some time.

I personally as a life long Roman Catholic do prefer icons more than statues. I wouldn’t say its the reason I joined an Eastern parish, but it definitely is a plus.

There are some very eastern aspects to the TLM, particularly in the Solemn High Mass. On the Feast of the Assumption, an icon of the Immaculate Heart was displayed to the congregation, incensed, and each of the three priest chanting the mass kissed it. (At least I think it was an icon; i’m not sure if that’s technically the correct term, but it looked like one, in a decorative “frame” and everything.) There’s a video of clips from it if you’re interested.
youtube.com/watch?v=xMrZ39QeKgY

I wouldn’t say its Eastern but that its universal. Statues or icons have been brought out for devotions or feast days in the Roman Church in the past, similar to how in the Byzantine Rite the icon for a Feast Day would be placed on the tetrapod.

Also…if anyone knows anything about music theory, are you familiar with the idea of the western sacred musical arrangement being “vertical” and the eastern arrangements being “horizontal”? I can actually tell that when I hear the two, but I don’t know the theory behind it…if you don’t know what I’m talking about, it’s okay…I know I’m being really vague.

What I do not agree with the EF/TLM is that it seems that singing is limited to the choir only. Sure, people can follow along, as long as they are not heard too audibly. Whereas in the East its the opposite, the congregation should sing. A cantor’s job in the East is to simply direct or to lead, not to be the only one singing loudly. I love that this changed with the OF in the Roman Rite but the other problem is the overabundance of hymns. When I was younger and in elementary, I went to a Catholic school and as part of our music class, we would be taught and practice singing Mass hymns. That amount of familiarity helps you join the singing during Mass. But after I got older and new hymns were introduced, no practice time, so you usually are lost and again left depending on the choir for the singing. In the Divine Liturgy, most of the hymns are the same throughout the year. Sometimes there’s just a choice of a couple of music settings. This means you take the hymn to heart and you join the singing.

 

[Seamus_L]

I think you’ll find that in many of the larger Eastern Catholic churches, that the choir will dominate the singing as much as they do in many RC churches.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I think you’ll find that in many of the larger Eastern Catholic churches, that the choir will dominate the singing as much as they do in many RC churches.

Well, the idea at least is for everyone to get involved. The problem is many don’t want to, for one reason or another. Shyness? Don’t think they can sing? Some here feel that having choirs is a Latinization. I must admit that sometimes you have to have a choir, otherwise no one would be singing. In the OF the intention is the same, the choir should only lead, and people join in. Problem is some choir groups feel that the Mass is a stage for their performance, and would use a wide variety of hymns. Sure, good for them, but the people generally are left out of the singing due to unfamiliarity with the song. Not everyone can read notes on a music sheet.

 

[Silyosha]

I think today its generally viewed that statues is not part of the tradition. It was there in the past but it hasn’t been for some time.

I personally as a life long Roman Catholic do prefer icons more than statues. I wouldn’t say its the reason I joined an Eastern parish, but it definitely is a plus.

I wouldn’t say its Eastern but that its universal. Statues or icons have been brought out for devotions or feast days in the Roman Church in the past, similar to how in the Byzantine Rite the icon for a Feast Day would be placed on the tetrapod.

What I do not agree with the EF/TLM is that it seems that singing is limited to the choir only. Sure, people can follow along, as long as they are not heard too audibly. Whereas in the East its the opposite, the congregation should sing. A cantor’s job in the East is to simply direct or to lead, not to be the only one singing loudly. I love that this changed with the OF in the Roman Rite but the other problem is the overabundance of hymns. When I was younger and in elementary, I went to a Catholic school and as part of our music class, we would be taught and practice singing Mass hymns. That amount of familiarity helps you join the singing during Mass. But after I got older and new hymns were introduced, no practice time, so you usually are lost and again left depending on the choir for the singing. In the Divine Liturgy, most of the hymns are the same throughout the year. Sometimes there’s just a choice of a couple of music settings. This means you take the hymn to heart and you join the singing.

You’re probably right about the eastern vs universal nature of bringing out icons for important feasts. After all, the Church has to “breathe with both lungs” (Pope JP 2 + ). I think Pope Benedict XVI + is doing a good job with interfaith negotiations as well. There have been some important steps taken towards a little more East/West unity. We’re lucky to have a Pope like him.
Yes, the presence of a choir does sometimes seem to discourage congregational singing…but I think a choir or a cantor is absolutely nessesary. The people in our church sing along with the choir (which is awesome), and it’s a great experience. That’s interesting about the DL hymns being the same throughout the year. It seems like we use a different variation on the Kyrie every liturgical season. Not a bad thing, in my opinion, but I wouldn’t mind keeping the same one.
Though personally I wouldn’t even attempt some of the hymns that the choir sings. Way too complicated.
Gosh, I wish there was an EC parish nearby so I could see what it’s all about, so to speak…But I should just be thankful we have a Catholic church within a reasonable distance, not to mention a traditional mass! I shouldn’t complain.

 

[ConstantineTG]

You’re probably right about the eastern vs universal nature of bringing out icons for important feasts. After all, the Church has to “breathe with both lungs” (Pope JP 2 + ). I think Pope Benedict XVI + is doing a good job with interfaith negotiations as well. There have been some important steps taken towards a little more East/West unity. We’re lucky to have a Pope like him.
Yes, the presence of a choir does sometimes seem to discourage congregational singing…but I think a choir or a cantor is absolutely nessesary. The people in our church sing along with the choir (which is awesome), and it’s a great experience. That’s interesting about the DL hymns being the same throughout the year. It seems like we use a different variation on the Kyrie every liturgical season. Not a bad thing, in my opinion, but I wouldn’t mind keeping the same one.
Though personally I wouldn’t even attempt some of the hymns that the choir sings. Way too complicated.
Gosh, I wish there was an EC parish nearby so I could see what it’s all about, so to speak…But I should just be thankful we have a Catholic church within a reasonable distance, not to mention a traditional mass! I shouldn’t complain.

What we have is what God has given us. I believe that God brought me to Canada to become an Eastern Catholic. It would have been impossible to become Eastern Catholic in the Philippines as its predominantly Roman Catholic. There is a small community of Eastern Orthodox there today, but they’re not in communion with Rome obviously.

I said most of the hymns, not all. Of course there are some variations from time to time, but some of the most important hymns are the same like the Trisagion and Cerubikon, there are some with alternative musical settings. Off the top of my head I can’t recall all what they are called, still getting my head around the parts of Divine Liturgy.

As for choirs, I think part of what encourages people to join in is uniformity of hymns. If you use the same hymns over and over again, people learn them and join in. If you keep changing, people will never learn the songs and will just be passive. I try to join as much as I can but admittedly I shut up if a hymn is unfamiliar. Most people won’t spend time to go to a special choir practice. Although talking about it now, I think choir practices should always be in the church and open to the public, so those who want to learn the songs even though not join the choir can attend the practice from time to time. Its a good idea

 

[Silyosha]

I love that idea. I think it would be wonderful to know the hymns that the choir sings…of course, you can always sign up for the choir, but I see your point. It would help a lot of people to get familiar with the liturgical music, which is never a bad thing!
Another question I’ve been meaning to pose is, for those of you who switched rites, why did you do so? What is considered a good reason to switch rites? I know it isn’t just discontent with ones’ own liturgy…so, would it be just interest? Appreciation? A feeling of spiritual connection?

(As a side note: I think the vestments worn by eastern priests and beautiful. As beautiful as the RC vestments, but in a different way. There can be really awful
“modern” vestments, though…the sights of those free-flowing “grapevine” chasubles that you see from time to time generally in more modernized churches are not among my favorites. :nope

Does anyone have an affinity for the traditional western Latin hymns? I have quite a few Russian and Greek chants on my iPod. The singing is very rich.