How do you think Eastern vs. Western Catholics approach their faith?

[Cecilianus]

I love that idea. I think it would be wonderful to know the hymns that the choir sings…of course, you can always sign up for the choir, but I see your point. It would help a lot of people to get familiar with the liturgical music, which is never a bad thing!
Another question I’ve been meaning to pose is, for those of you who switched rites, why did you do so? What is considered a good reason to switch rites? I know it isn’t just discontent with ones’ own liturgy…so, would it be just interest? Appreciation? A feeling of spiritual connection?

Why I switched rites (or am switching - the bishops haven’t formally approved it yet)?

I was looking for the most authentic, most reverent, most beautiful, most Catholic, and most Traditional Mass I could find. Being Swedish-Minnesotan with a Lutheran upbringing I have no ethnic attachment to the Roman Rite, so after spending some time as a Tridentine Catholic I fell in love with the Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy. This particular parish was very heavily Latinized, with kneeling and confessionals and Rosaries before Liturgy but with a gorgeous iconostasis and a wonderful choir, so it was an easy transition from the Latin Mass. Over time I got to understand and know the Byzantine rite better, with the realization that unlike the case in a Tridentine Mass these Latinizations were not in fact traditional expressions of the Faith but rather relatively recent (19th-century) deformations detracting from the authenticity and integrity of the Byzantine Rite, which is why I have been mostly going to Ruthenian parishes and have requested a transfer to the Ruthenian Eparchy of Parma. The Liturgy at St. Constantine’s Ukrainian is still a very, very beautiful and orthodox service, however, and I do still go there on occasion; the liturgical problems in the Eastern Church are on a TOTALLY different order than they are in the Western Church today.

A second reason I went Eastern is because my brain and Scholasticism don’t mix, and my frustration both with Thomist soteriology (which looks the same to me as it does to the Molinists and Jesuits) and with the neo-Thomist disdain for modern science (I am one semester away from having degrees in physics, math, and astronomy) was becoming harmful to my faith. Eastern theology is an expression of the Faith which is entirely orthodox without using philosophical terminology coming from Aristotle.

Finally, I just feel at home in the East. Eastern parishes (except for the Ukrainian ones I’ve seen) always have a very strong sense of community WITHOUT detracting from the reverence or orthodoxy of the Liturgy - in the West it always seems to be one or the other. I’ve felt welcomed and even wanted in every Ruthenian and Melkite parish I’ve been to, and it really looks genuine - as if the parishioners and priests genuinely like me rather than just putting on a show in an attempt at hospitality or because the parishes might die without all the help they can get (I get this feeling at relatively large parishes too - and I travel between states every few months due to my state in life so I’ve been around a bit).

 

[Cecilianus]

Does anyone have an affinity for the traditional western Latin hymns? I have quite a few Russian and Greek chants on my iPod. The singing is very rich.

I love Gregorian Chant - more so in fact than either prostopinije (Ruthenian) or znamenny (Russian). My favorite is the Greek plainchant which employs an ison (eternity note or drone - the “tenor” in 13th-century Latin “ars antiqua”) beneath long exuberant melismas. Greek chant has a very plaintive, Eastern feel to it due to the microtonal modal system. Most Catholic churches don’t have many or any ethnic Greeks in them, so you don’t hear it very often - my Ruthenian parish at college used to have a pastor who was an Athonite schemamonk who translated to Catholicism and who knew the chants, and he would on rare occasion sing them for my enjoyment and that of one other friend of mine at the parish who liked them. If they were any more beautiful I would die and go to Heaven from sheer joy.youtube.com/watch?v=-BpBgU-gUMA

And the single most beautiful chant I ever heard was the Words of Institution sung in Aramaic at a Maronite church. Some Melkite chants (like one chant used for the apostikhon for Vespers on Thursday night) are also indescribably beautiful.

 

[Silyosha]

Why I switched rites (or am switching - the bishops haven’t formally approved it yet)?

I was looking for the most authentic, most reverent, most beautiful, most Catholic, and most Traditional Mass I could find. Being Swedish-Minnesotan with a Lutheran upbringing I have no ethnic attachment to the Roman Rite, so after spending some time as a Tridentine Catholic I fell in love with the Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy. This particular parish was very heavily Latinized, with kneeling and confessionals and Rosaries before Liturgy but with a gorgeous iconostasis and a wonderful choir, so it was an easy transition from the Latin Mass. Over time I got to understand and know the Byzantine rite better, with the realization that unlike the case in a Tridentine Mass these Latinizations were not in fact traditional expressions of the Faith but rather relatively recent (19th-century) deformations detracting from the authenticity and integrity of the Byzantine Rite, which is why I have been mostly going to Ruthenian parishes and have requested a transfer to the Ruthenian Eparchy of Parma. The Liturgy at St. Constantine’s Ukrainian is still a very, very beautiful and orthodox service, however, and I do still go there on occasion; the liturgical problems in the Eastern Church are on a TOTALLY different order than they are in the Western Church today.

A second reason I went Eastern is because my brain and Scholasticism don’t mix, and my frustration both with Thomist soteriology (which looks the same to me as it does to the Molinists and Jesuits) and with the neo-Thomist disdain for modern science (I am one semester away from having degrees in physics, math, and astronomy) was becoming harmful to my faith. Eastern theology is an expression of the Faith which is entirely orthodox without using philosophical terminology coming from Aristotle.

Finally, I just feel at home in the East. Eastern parishes (except for the Ukrainian ones I’ve seen) always have a very strong sense of community WITHOUT detracting from the reverence or orthodoxy of the Liturgy - in the West it always seems to be one or the other. I’ve felt welcomed and even wanted in every Ruthenian and Melkite parish I’ve been to, and it really looks genuine - as if the parishioners and priests genuinely like me rather than just putting on a show in an attempt at hospitality or because the parishes might die without all the help they can get (I get this feeling at relatively large parishes too - and I travel between states every few months due to my state in life so I’ve been around a bit).

Thanks for posting your experiences! I think it’s wonderful that the Church IS so universal and we’re able to have all these different liturgies in a single body…it makes it a lot more accessable to people who have converted, etc…there seems to be something for everyone. A feeling of community is very important in a church, but as you said, sometimes it seems that it must be one or the other: proper liturgy or a good sense of community. But we shouldn’t lose hope that there are some parishes that can encompass both. I’d really like to attend an eastern mass someday, though I do just love the TLM. I hope I have a good enough reason to want to go. In my case, since my family is Italian we do have something of an ethnic attatchment to the Latin rite, if you could call it that. Obviously the Latin rite is everywhere but the use of Latin in Italian masses obviously isn’t all that radical over there because it’s really so close to the vernacular or the country.
Aside from the language used in the mass, is are the Greek/Russian/Ukrainian/Melkite/Ruthenian/etc. the same or close to the same? There are so many different rites…it can get confusing. I do notice marked differences in the music. My favorites, I believe, are the Russian hymns.
On the subject of music, the link you posted was so beautiful. There’s something about the deep, rich solemnity of the chanting that seems so reverent and holy. I imagine that sort of music to be in heaven too…Greek, Latin, Russian, and everything else together. After all, the mass is the closest thing to heaven on earth for us.

 

[dcointin]

And the single most beautiful chant I ever heard was the Words of Institution sung in Aramaic at a Maronite church. Some Melkite chants (like one chant used for the apostikhon for Vespers on Thursday night) are also indescribably beautiful.

I had the pleasure of attending a Maronite liturgy at St. Raymond’s Maronite Cathedral here in St. Louis, and I had the same feeling. The chant for the consecration was simple and beautiful, and I felt a profound sense of holiness and awe at hearing the words that our savior himself used. I highly recommend anyone to experience this if you are able.

 

[Cecilianus]

Thanks for posting your experiences! I think it’s wonderful that the Church IS so universal and we’re able to have all these different liturgies in a single body…it makes it a lot more accessable to people who have converted, etc…there seems to be something for everyone. A feeling of community is very important in a church, but as you said, sometimes it seems that it must be one or the other: proper liturgy or a good sense of community. But we shouldn’t lose hope that there are some parishes that can encompass both. I’d really like to attend an eastern mass someday, though I do just love the TLM. I hope I have a good enough reason to want to go. In my case, since my family is Italian we do have something of an ethnic attatchment to the Latin rite, if you could call it that. Obviously the Latin rite is everywhere but the use of Latin in Italian masses obviously isn’t all that radical over there because it’s really so close to the vernacular or the country.

Where in Italy was your family from, if I might ask? Sicily and Calabria used to be entirely of the Byzantine rite, which steadily declined due to the demographic shifts after the Muslim invasion in 902 and the subsequent Norman repopulation, despite the attempts of Popes and Norman kings to keep it alive - it experience a rebirth in the 1500s due to Albanian emigrants but is dying again. Naples and Venice also had strong Greek Catholic presences. If you’re from any of those places, you might have some Italo-Greek ancestors.

There were in fact 13 Popes of the Greek rite from Sicily or Calabria.

I also have some Sicilian on my mother’s side, though most of them weren’t practicing Catholics (I was raised with a much stronger sense of Swedish identity).

Aside from the language used in the mass, is are the Greek/Russian/Ukrainian/Melkite/Ruthenian/etc. the same or close to the same? There are so many different rites…it can get confusing. I do notice marked differences in the music. My favorites, I believe, are the Russian hymns.
On the subject of music, the link you posted was so beautiful. There’s something about the deep, rich solemnity of the chanting that seems so reverent and holy. I imagine that sort of music to be in heaven too…Greek, Latin, Russian, and everything else together. After all, the mass is the closest thing to heaven on earth for us.

Pretty much the same. The Ukrainians and Ruthenians use the “Ruthenian recension” of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, with different translations, but the differences in translation are much more stark than the difference between the “Ruthenian recension” and whatever recension the Melkites use. (The new Ruthenian translation is rather controversial and a bit disappointing - 1/3 of the Eparchy of Parma left for Orthodoxy over it. It’s still very reverent and traditional by post-VII Western standards, however.)

The Ukrainians are more likely to have choirs and less likely to have congregational singing than the Ruthenians are; the Ukrainians also have the entire congregation venerate the Gospel during the Minor Entrance rather than just the clergy and acolytes as with the Ruthenians and Romanians. The Melkites stopped administering Holy Communion with a spoon sometime during an epidemic in the late 19th century of early 20th century and now use intinction instead. Those are the only differences that I know of.

There are some other very minor differences. One very learned Melkite once explained to me some very subtle difference in the vestments for a subdeacon (or maybe some other rank) in the Ukrainian versus the Ruthenian churches.

 

[Cecilianus]

I had the pleasure of attending a Maronite liturgy at St. Raymond’s Maronite Cathedral here in St. Louis, and I had the same feeling. The chant for the consecration was simple and beautiful, and I felt a profound sense of holiness and awe at hearing the words that our savior himself used. I highly recommend anyone to experience this if you are able.

There’s just something about the Middle Eastern lilt that makes it sound more heartfelt, and less like a musical performance.

 

[Cecilianus]

Also, Silyosha, the Melkites are more likely to say the Liturgy of St. James, which was their original liturgy before they adopted that of St. John Chrysostom. It’s still said only very rarely, but you will find priests with permission to say it.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Also, Silyosha, the Melkites are more likely to say the Liturgy of St. James, which was their original liturgy before they adopted that of St. John Chrysostom. It’s still said only very rarely, but you will find priests with permission to say it.

I heard that its looooooooong

 

[Cecilianus]

I heard that its looooooooong

Wouldn’t know, 'cause I’ve never heard it!

 

[ConstantineTG]

Wouldn’t know, 'cause I’ve never heard it!

I think Wikipedia says its like 3 hours long. I don’t know for sure as well

 

[Silyosha]

Three hours? Wow…I wonder if anyone here has ever heard it? I mean, it must be long for the laity hearing it…but think of the priest!!
In response to Constantine’s question, the family is from Naples. I’m not sure about the historical evidence surrounding the Byzantine/Latin rite alignment, but I’m sure somebody can tell me. It’s interesting how Italy only became a united country fairly recently…due to the Roman Empire, so many things and customs were able to be brought in from other lands.
So, there are marked differences in the Ukranian liturgy? Seeing the comment about the choir, are these differences considered Latinization? I wonder also about the difference between Ukranian and Russian parishes/liturgy…I mean, the two were part of the same nation for a reeeeally long time, so how different could they be?
I personally don’t think the absense or presence of a choir is too big a deal as long as the music is LITURGICALLY APPROPRIATE (pardon the caps) unlike the music used in some highly “modernized” parishes. I heartily agree with the comment made about the eastern music (or was it Arabic?) being very heartfelt. I discovered this Christmas chant on youtube and fell in love with it.
youtube.com/watch?v=FFbg9FtFWDA
Do EC parishes have altar girls? In traditional Latin parishes it isn’t allowed.

 

[Jakub]

In my brief 8 year exploration of Eastern Catholics and Orthodox, I have found them deeply spiritual and devoted to their traditions…however I have also seen some younger folks drift away in part to the demands of the fasting and liturgical practices attached to the particular rites / Churches.

Being a Latin Rite Catholic of a certain age I have no problems with their practices, in fact my rule of prayer is 75% Eastern…

The path of the East is not as easy as in the West …

Silyosha, nice signature avatar, may I ask where it originated from ?

James

 

[Silyosha]

In my brief 8 year exploration of Eastern Catholics and Orthodox, I have found them deeply spiritual and devoted to their traditions…however I have also seen some younger folks drift away in part to the demands of the fasting and liturgical practices attached to the particular rites / Churches.

Being a Latin Rite Catholic of a certain age I have no problems with their practices, in fact my rule of prayer is 75% Eastern…

The path of the East is not as easy as in the West …

Silyosha, nice signature avatar, may I ask where it originated from ?

James

I agree. I think it’s easier to slide away from the Western church practices like fasting, etc. because the church is so large and widespread, and filled with so many different takes on the faith (some heretical, some just with different ideas). I think this vast array of differences in whether we need to be properly observant, sorta-kinda observant, or a do-what-you-feel-like kind of attitude (the two latter of which I don’t approve) can confuse some people. Therefore, a lot of people, especially young people, slide away. I wish it weren’t so. But I think it’s improving somewhat. There has recently been a BIG influx of young people and families (in their 20s or so) at my parish…a very traditional parish at that.

Thanks! I found the picture at the website below:
ilianrachov.com/ikons/index.htm#123
The icons are so BEAUTIFUL. Obviously eastern but with a kind of western feel in the manner of shading and et cetera. I love them. The “artist” is apparently from Bulgaria but many of the icons have Italian on them.

 

[Jakub]

Thanks for the link, your avatar looked familiar, my grandaughter has a few favorites on there…

James

 

[Silyosha]

They’re some of the most beautiful icons I’ve seen.

 

[UnityofTrinity]

Although I love the Eastern Rite Church(my teacher is Eastern 2), I somehow is attached more to the Latin rite. Somehow Latin “speak” to me more than Greek or Aramaic, even the chanting in Latin sound better IMO.

But I must agree with many up there, the Church in itself is truly “Catholic” in all conventional sense which encompasses all nations, all regions, and all traditions.

 

[Silyosha]

What I like about Latin is, if the mass is said in it, you could theoretically go to any parish in the world and understand what is being said. Very universal/very catholic.

 

[Cecilianus]

What I like about Latin is, if the mass is said in it, you could theoretically go to any parish in the world and understand what is being said. Very universal/very catholic.

Yes, although this was always a bit of a pleasant illusion, since none of the Eastern Rites ever said Latin - so it only works if you stay in Latin-rite countries. (Also, the idea that a priest could go to any country and be able to say Mass likewise only holds true in Latin-rite countries.)

 

[jimmy]

In the east beauty plays a central role. Spirituality is a pursuit of beauty. The object is divine beauty, and we try to imitate, and make our own, the beauty of the virtues. Beauty is central to the liturgy and everything else in the east. The pursuit of beauty is natural to every man and it drives man toward his end.

In the west law plays a larger role. ‘This is what we have done, and this is what needs to be done.’ Sin is like breaking the law, whereas in the east it is more like a distortion of our nature or a sickness.

 

[Silyosha]

Yes, although this was always a bit of a pleasant illusion, since none of the Eastern Rites ever said Latin - so it only works if you stay in Latin-rite countries. (Also, the idea that a priest could go to any country and be able to say Mass likewise only holds true in Latin-rite countries.)

True, true…I suppose it’s kind of similar to using Old Church Slavonic in eastern European churches? I’m not well versed at all on that particular language or how widely it’s used, but if it is widely used, is it kind of the same idea?