How do you translate 2 Tim 2:15?

[StevEdward]

How did our translation go from “handiling” to “dividing?”

2Timothy 2:15 should read: “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.”

Some Protestants are telling me that’s not how it reads, and their version gives them some authority for their doctrine of sola scriptura: “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

Is this deliberate medling? Or is it really just one translation vs. another?

 

[crazzeto]

I’ve put this verse back into context, and I will provide it in the following translations of the bible. This will show that this verse is does not support sola scriptura

Translations used:

Douay-Rheims - Literal translation of the Vulgate (I would argue most accurate english bible available)
ISV - An evangelical leaning translation, from the original languages (note the source materials however are several hundred years younger than Vulgate)
KJV-1611 - Translated from many sources including Tyndales Bible
Gods Word - I don’t know much about this one, probably from source languages
Greek Interliniar Provided by Faith Database

DRB
13 If we believe not, he continueth faithful, he cannot deny himself.
14 Of these things put them in mind, charging them before the Lord. Contend not in words: for it is to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15 Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they grow much towards ungodliness.
17 And their speech spreadeth like a canker: of whom are Hymeneus and Philetus:
18 Who have erred from the truth, saying that the resurrection is past already, and have subverted the faith of some.
19 But the sure foundation of God standeth firm, having this seal: the Lord knoweth who are his; and let every one depart from iniquity who nameth the name of the Lord.

ISV
13 Our faith may fail, his never wanes- For thus he is, he cannot change!
14 Remind others about these things, and warn them in the sight of God not to argue over words. Arguing does not do any good but only destroys those who are listening.
15 Do your best to present yourself to God as an approved worker who has nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of truth with precision.
16 However, avoid pointless discussions. For people will become more and more ungodly,
17 and what they say will spread everywhere like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are like that.
18 They have abandoned the truth by claiming that the resurrection has already taken place, and so they destroy the faith of others.
19 However, God’s solid foundation still stands. It has this inscription on it: “The Lord knows those who belong to him,” and “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord must turn away from evil.”

KJV-1611
13 If we beleeue not, yet he abideth faithfull, he cannot denie himselfe.
14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord, that they striue not about words to no profite, but to the subuerting of the hearers.
15 Studie to shewe thy selfe approued vnto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly diuiding the word of trueth.
16 But shun profane and vaine bablings, for they will increase vnto more vngodlinesse.
17 And their word will eate as doth a canker: of whom is Hymeneus and Philetus.
18 Who concerning the trueth haue erred, saying that the resurrection is past alreadie, and ouerthrow the faith of some.
19 Neuerthelesse the foundation of God standeth sure, hauing the seale, the Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let euery one that nameth the Name of Christ, depart from iniquitie.

GW
13 If we are unfaithful, he remains faithful because he cannot be untrue to himself.
14 Remind believers about these things, and warn them in the sight of God not to quarrel over words. Quarreling doesn’t do any good but only destroys those who are listening.
15 Do your best to present yourself to God as a tried-and-true worker who isn’t ashamed to teach the word of truth correctly.
16 Avoid pointless discussions. People who pay attention to these pointless discussions will become more ungodly,
17 and what they say will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are like that.
18 They have abandoned the truth. They are destroying the faith of others by saying that people who have died have already come back to life.
19 In spite of all that, God’s people have a solid foundation. These words are engraved on it: “The Lord knows those who belong to him,” and “Whoever worships the Lord must give up doing wrong.”

END PART 1

 

[crazzeto]

BEGIN PART 2

Greek:
13: ei <1487> {IF} apistoumen <569> (5719) {WE ARE UNFAITHFUL,} ekeinoV <1565> {HE} pistoV <4103> {FAITHFUL} menei <3306> (5719) {ABIDES;} arnhsasqai <720> (5664) {TO DENY} eauton <1438> {HIMSELF} ou <3756> dunatai <1410> (5736) {HE IS NOT ABLE.} [R] +]
14: tauta <5023> {THESE THINGS} upomimnhske <5279> (5720) {PUT IN REMEMBRANCE OF,} diamarturomenoV <1263> (5740) {TESTIFYING EARNESTLY} enwpion <1799> {BEFORE} tou <3588> {THE} kuriou <2962> {LORD} mh <3361> {NOT} logomacein <3054> (5721) {TO DISPUTE ABOUT WORDS} eiV <1519> {FOR} ouden <3762> {NOTHING} crhsimon <5539> {PROFITABLE,} epi <1909> {TO} katastrofh <2692> {SUBVERSION} twn <3588> {OF THOSE WHO} akouontwn <191> (5723) {HEAR.} [R] +]
15: spoudason <4704> (5657) {BE DILIGENT} seauton <4572> {THYSELF} dokimon <1384> {APPROVED} parasthsai <3936> (5658) tw <3588> {TO PRESENT} qew <2316> {TO GOD,} ergathn <2040> {A WORKMAN} anepaiscunton <422> {NOT ASHAMED,} orqotomounta <3718> (5723) {STRAIGHTLY CUTTING} ton <3588> {THE} logon <3056> thV <3588> {WORD} alhqeiaV <225> {OF TRUTH;} [R] +]
16: taV <3588> de <1161> bebhlouV <952> {BUT PROFANE} kenofwniaV <2757> {EMPTY BABBLINGS} periistaso <4026> (5732) {STAND ALOOF FROM,} epi <1909> {TO} pleion <4119> {MORE} gar <1063> {FOR} prokoyousin <4298> (5692) {THEY WILL ADVANCE} asebeiaV <763> {OF UNGODLINESS,} [R] +]
17: kai <2532> {AND} o <3588> logoV <3056> autwn <846> {THEIR WORD} wV <5613> {AS} gaggraina <1044> {A GANGRENE} nomhn <3542> {PASTURE} exei <2192> (5692) {WILL HAVE;} wn <3739> {OF WHOM} estin <2076> (5748) {IS} umenaioV <5211> {HYMENAEUS} kai <2532> {AND} filhtoV <5372> {PHILETUS;} [R] +]
18: oitineV <3748> {WHO} peri <4012> {CONCERNING} thn <3588> {THE} alhqeian <225> {TRUTH} hstochsan <795> (5656) {MISSED THE MARK,} legonteV <3004> (5723) {ASSERTING} thn <3588> {THE} anastasin <386> {RESURRECTION} hdh <2235> {ALREADY} gegonenai <1096> (5755) {TO HAVE TAKEN PLACE;} kai <2532> {AND} anatrepousin <396> (5719) {ARE OVERTHROWING} thn <3588> {THE} tinwn <5100> {OF SOME} pistin <4102> {FAITH.} [R] +]
19: o <3588> mentoi <3305> {NEVERTHELESS} stereoV <4731> {FIRM} qemelioV <2310> tou <3588> {FOUNDATION} qeou <2316> {GOD’S} esthken <2476> (5707) (5758) {STANDS,} ecwn <2192> (5723) {HAVING} thn <3588> sfragida <4973> tauthn <3778> {THIS SEAL,} egnw <1097> (5627) {KNOWS} kurioV <2962> {[THE] LORD} touV <3588> {THOSE THAT} ontaV <5607> (5752) {ARE} autou <846> {HIS,} kai <2532> {AND} aposthtw <868> (5628) {LET DEPART} apo <575> {FROM} adikiaV <93> {UNRIGHTEOUSNESS} paV <3956> {EVERYONE} o <3588> {WHO} onomazwn <3687> (5723) {NAMES} to <3588> {THE} onoma <3686> {NAME} cristou <5547> {OF CHRIST.}

You will note, the doctrine of Sola Scriptura pulmigates the idea that the bible is the sole rule of faith, that is if it isn’t in the bible then it isn’t to be believed. I’m really not sure how you eek that out of this verse in any one of the 5 different tranlations I’ve provided. In fact the message it convey’s is to study up on the faith, and from there “rightly handling it”, that is to say abiding by a correct orthodox teaching. Here are the Rev Haydock’s notes on the verse:

2Ti 2:15 Thyself approved,[5] or acceptable to God. — Rightly handling.[6] In the Greek, cutting or dividing the word of truth, according to the capacities of the hearers, and for the good of all. (Witham) — The Protestant version has, dividing the word of truth. All Christians challenge the Scriptures, but the whole is in the rightly handling them. Heretics change and adulterate them, as the same apostle affirms, 2 Corinthians xi. and 4. These he admonishes us (as he did before, 1 Timothy vi. 20.) to avoid, for they have a popular way of expression, by which the unlearned are easily beguiled. “Nothing is so easy,” says St. Jerome, “as with a facility and volubility of speech to deceive the illiterate, who are apt to admire what they cannot comprehend.” (Ep. ii. ad Nepot. chap. 10)

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[BIBLIOGRAPHY]

Probabilem, Greek: dokimon.

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[BIBLIOGRAPHY]

Recte tractantem, Greek: opthotomounta.

 

[crazzeto]

BEGIN PART 3

Here are the verses referenced by Haydock:

2 Cor XI

4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Christ, whom we have not preached; or if you receive another Spirit, whom you have not received; or another gospel, which you have not received: you might well bear with him.

1 Tim VI

20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding the profane novelties of words and oppositions of knowledge falsely so called.

 

[StevEdward]

It may be that the Protestant writer, to whom I am responding, is using this verse in our discourse to point out something that I was unaware. Our subject has been Sola Scriptura, and perhaps the writer is simply reading more into the verse then you and I can see (is there any wonder?). Certainly your diligent work has illuminated this question better then I expected, or was prepared for. But you have re-sparked my interest in a part of history that I had forgotten, insofar as that wonderful discipline of interpreting the differing manuscripts of the Holy Bible. This was a subject that was originally introduced to me by a friend - Dr. Barbara Watterson, about twenty years ago!

Thank you very much, and peace be with you!

Steven

 

[crazzeto]

No problem, I would certainly recommend using several different translations of the bible when studying a problem, as well as seeking the opinion of the Fathers (one good place to look is the Catechism of the Catholic Church) when interpreting passages.

I found it interesting that this individual tried misapplying 2 Tim 2:15 to mean Sola Scriptura. Usually it’s 2 Tim 3:16:

2Ti 3:16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice:

Of course in this case the Sola Scriptura evangalist is actually reading

2Ti 3:16 -]All/-] cripture [alone is], inspired of God, -]is/-] profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice:

Anything look wrong there?

God bless,

 

[StevEdward]

No problem, I would certainly recommend using several different translations of the bible when studying a problem, as well as seeking the opinion of the Fathers (one good place to look is the Catechism of the Catholic Church) when interpreting passages.

I found it interesting that this individual tried misapplying 2 Tim 2:15 to mean Sola Scriptura. Usually it’s 2 Tim 3:16:

Of course in this case the Sola Scriptura evangalist is actually reading

Anything look wrong there?

God bless,

Perhaps I’ve been a little hasty in trying to conclude this thread. What you expected has arrived, but in the form of verses from the NKVD, which is apparently even more adulterated. Let me share just an excerpt from this rather provocative post from ChristianMingle’s Bible Study & Theology board, which was provided last night:

There is nothing here that is taken out of context, as you suggest:

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
2 Tim 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. NKJV

The Bible is the sole authority… not Universities and certainly not the Pope who is a most fallible man. It is not necessary to “learn” from so called scholars and teachers from Universities and Seminaries for that matter. I am not saying that we do not need to understand how to apply good biblical methods of interpretation. We certainly should not rely upon the teachings of men though we can learn “Historical” perspectives from the Early Church Fathers…Ante-Nicene. Through the study of Early Church History we can examine and follow doctrinal beliefs and the development of later beliefs which are heretical. Consider these scriptures for your enlightenment.

Col 1:9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

1Cor 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
16 For “WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD THAT HE MAY INSTRUCT HIM?” But we have the mind of Christ.

James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

If a person is truly a Christian then they have the Holy Spirit indwelling them and if they truly have a humble heart before God and are willing to learn the true of God no matter what and can put away personal bias, then God will give them HIS wisdom of His word.

All the above here, save our exchange from Catholic Answers of course, is copied from this gentleman’s post. Can you see all the differences in these verses as they now appear in the New King James Version? Which incidentally, is a version I have yet to inspect myself. Now, as a beginner in Catholic apologetics, I’m not inclined to go after this gentleman’s reasoning since he appears to use some evangelistic apologetics himself, for which I am not yet skilled enough to refute. Thank you very much crazzeto!

Vivat Jesus,

Steven

 

[crazzeto]

Perhaps I’ve been a little hasty in trying to conclude this thread. What you expected has arrived, but in the form of verses from the NKVD, which is apparently even more adulterated. Let me share just an excerpt from this rather provocative post from ChristianMingle’s Bible Study & Theology board, which was provided last night:

There is nothing here that is taken out of context, as you suggest:

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
2 Tim 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. NKJV

Sorry to cut out much of that individuals post and your comments, with regard to this scripture just present him the bastardization of 2 Tim 3:16 that he is doing. Make him see the edits, and ask him to read both versions and see what they say… He’s utterly bastardized 2 Tim 3:16, the KVJ reads very straight forward and it doesn’t say what he insists it says. If he persists, tell him to rip the new testament right out of his bible and burn it because it’s not “God Breathed”, why would you tell him that? Here’s 2 Tim 3:14-15:

KJV
2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Notice “and that from a child hast known the holy scriptures”? The Scriptures Paul are talking about are the ones Timothy has known since childhood, it’s the old testament alone!!! So if you’re evangelical friend wants to continue along this line, then the Old Testament alone, is God breathed, useful for correction et. al.

His posts from Corinthians really don’t address the bible what so ever, your evangelical friend doesn’t really understand the history of the bible… Here is a book you should read

catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/wbible.htm
amazon.com/Where-Bible-Debt-Catholic-Church/dp/0895557967/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1274542749&sr=8-1

I too recommend you read the Ante-nicean fathers… Here’s a real jem from St. Polycarp:
Chap. XII. — Exhortation to Various Graces.
For I trust that ye are well versed in the Sacred Scriptures, and that nothing is hid from you; **but to me this privilege is not yet granted.**17 It is declared then in these Scriptures, “Be ye angry, and sin not,” (Psa_4:5) and, “Let not the sun go down upon your wrath.” (Eph_4:26) Happy is he who remembers18

What Polycarp is talking about is the reality that not every Christian had access to the scriptures, but yet somehow they got saved. Let your evangelical friend ponder the meaning of this.

 

[crazzeto]

BTW,

Can’t remember if I mentioned it before, but one more justification they use is that the “Word of God” must mean the bible, and the bible alone… After all, the only Words of God we have are written right there right? Couldn’t be any other place right?

Let’s see how that idea stacks up against scripture:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
…
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So several uncomfortable questions, right off the bat our Evangelical brothers and sisters need to deal with is:

1. In the Beginning was the Bible?
2. And the bible was with God? Which version?
3. Which version of the bible was God? KJV?
4. At what point in time was it made God?

As catholics we know the answers, no version of the bible may be spoken of like this, that is idolotry. Rather, Jesus Christ alone is the Eternal Word of God most fundamentally. That isn’t to say the bible isn’t the word of God, it’s just not the Word of God if you catch my drift, the source is Jesus Christ. Let’s examine one more scipture:

Revelation 19

Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

So again, is that the bible who’s eye’s are as a flame, with many crowns on his head riding on a while horse (sorry, snipped that part)? Or is that Jesus in heaven wearing a name tag that says “The Word of God”.

Jesus alone is the Word of God, and the catholic church is most certainly subserviant to it as our own writings attest to many times (I think Lumen Gentium might discuss this, but don’t quite me).

 

[StevEdward]

Crazzeto,

As far back as I can remember, it has always been my contention that too much can be lost, or misquoted, with the translation of languages and the resulting loss from additional connotations. Allow me to share with you this Protestant reply to your excellent argument for “The Word of God” (which incidentally, I paraphrased and shared with my friends on ChristianMingle.com):

There are two words which are translated Word. One is Logo, and the other Rhema. Logos is the entire word. And Rhema is the specific spoken word(s).

The verses you quoted in John are all Logos, the entire word. And Jesus is the embodiment of the entire Word of God. Because every word of the Bible was inspired by God, it too is considered the Logos. That is why each book of the Bible was scrutinized before adding it to the canon. And right or wrong, that is why some books were considered apocrypha or pseudepigrapha.

In the beginning at creation the Father envisioned the act, Jesus spoke the word, and it was done by the power of the Holy Spirit. And wa lah - a chicken. (This proves which came first…)

Now Rhema is the spoken word to a specific person and for a specific purpose. My favorite verse happens to have this word in it and I will subtitute rhema so you can see how he has used it with me. It is a very personal verse to all who apply it and meet the conditions.

John 15:7 "If you abide in Me, and my words/rhema (specific spoken words to your heart) abides in you, you shall ask what you desire and it shall be done for you.

One doesn’t take a verse out of context from the entire word of God and apply it to themselves, especially if when doing so they are justifying a sin. But, in the case of John 15:7 you see if you are close enough to Jesus spirit that you can hear his spoken words to your heart about a specific thing, you just have to put those spoken words in a form of a prayer and it will be done for you.

There is another set of verses in Psa. 37 (another favorite chapter, this time from the Old Testatment). It basically is promising the same thing.

"Trust in the Lord, and do good; Dwell in the land, and feed on His faithfulness. Delight yourself also in the Lord, and He shall give you the desires of your heart. Commit your way to the Lord, Trust also in Him, and He shall bring it to pass. He shall bring forth your righteousness as the light, and your justice as the noonday.

Both of these texts John 15 and Psalm 37 both require undying trust in the Lord. And love, where obeying His commands is a joy, not a burden. When we “commit our way to the Lord” we seek to do his will, and when that happens God will bring it to pass. It is so wonderful to have such a personal relationship with the creator of the whole universe, of everything.

My question, as a response to the above post from ChristianMingle.com, is the following:
Is it not merely a translation from only the Greek, and does it not account for earlier translations where the added meanings compounded the first recordings of the scribes?

 

[crazzeto]

On a technical level, yes these protestants are correct there is a significant difference between Logos/Rhema… But let us not forget, that we get Rhema from the Logos and there for the usages are not as disconnected as they would wish to believe them to be.

So when the “word of God” is used, it’s root meaning can always be found in Christ wheter we’re talking about the written tradition of the Church (bible) or the continued and constant oral tradition of the Church (apostolic tradition). Both are different recordings of the words of Christ and his Apostles, but all can only be understood in Christ and there for only with the help of the Holy Spirit.

So at this point a Protestant might want to discuss the idea of the common priesthood, or the promise of the spirit to all believers. And again on some level they’re right, we do have a common priestly obligation and we were all in fact promised (and have received at baptism the spirit), but what we don’t all have individually is fully priestly factulties nor the promise to be guided infallibly into all Christian truth.

It’s that second point which is most directly relivent to your discussions (the first is more relivent to the administration of sacraments). Christ promised his Apostles that we would be lead into all truth. We lay believers can be lead into the same truth only by remaining loyal to and learning from the successors of Christ’s vary apostles (the Bishops). On a side note, particularly since your friend likes the KJV, so a search on the KJV for the word “Bishop”, then ask him what’s wrong with this faith tradition… But that’s just an aside.

Now I did introduce a new concept here (I’m sure you already knew about it, but perhaps not in an apologetics mode)… The idea of the constant oral teaching of the Church, that is to say the Tradition of the Church. This is a scriptual idea, that not everything a Christian ought to believe may be found in Scripture. For instance find the word “Trinaty” in scripture, it’s not there. If your friend decides to attack on this front, then I would for starts, bring up saturday’s Gosple ready (5/22/10)

Joh 21:20 Peter turning about, saw that disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also leaned on his breast at supper and said: Lord, who is he that shall betray thee?
Joh 21:21 Him therefore when Peter had seen, he saith to Jesus: Lord, and what shall this man do?
Joh 21:22 Jesus saith to him: So I will have him to remain till I come, what is it to thee? Follow thou me.
Joh 21:23 This saying therefore went abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die. And Jesus did not say to him: He should not die; but: So I will have him to remain till I come, what is it to thee?
Joh 21:24 This is that disciple who giveth testimony of these things and hath written these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
Joh 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself. I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

This is actually the second time this appears in two consecutive chapters of John, the first is:

Joh 20:29 Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen and have believed.
Joh 20:30 Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book.
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name.

Additionally St. Paul tells us in his Episitles

2Th 2:14 (2:13) Whereunto also he hath called you by our gospel, unto the purchasing of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 2:15 (2:14) Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.

And

1Ti 3:14 These things I write to thee, hoping that I shall come to thee shortly.
1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.