How do you understand this paradox of the marital embrace?

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mommamaree

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This is just a thought that has been tumbling around in my brain for quite some time, since I began reading everything I could find that contained Church teaching regarding the proper use of our sexual faculties. Okay, here goes…
🙂

Sexual intercourse is meant to be self-donative. Each spouse ideally should be concerned with the experience of the other. Neither spouse should use the other for their own pleasure.
That part I think is agreeable to all Catholics, right?

Okay, furthermore…
A man’s orgasm is fairly easy to accomplish, generally speaking. In fact, it can occur quicker than he would desire it to occur sometimes.
A woman’s climax is not that easy to accomplish, generally speaking. In fact, it can take longer than the duration of intercourse for it to occur, and sometimes not at all.
These things most people would agree are true, right?

Okay, so the paradox…
How is a woman supposed to be focused upon loving her husband with all her being during the marital act, and still be able to receive pleasure in the process, if she MUST PAY ATTENTION to the sensations occurring within her own body in order for pleasure and arousal and climax to occur?

I would really like to hear how Catholics view and accept and understand this paradox for a healthy expression of sexuality within Christian marriage. Still being a rather new Catholic myself, I am still working diligently to expunge prior non-Catholic and pagan conditioning. It honestly can be a painful struggle to root out the lies and to embrace the truth, and I do not want to develop a neurotic attitude instead of doing the hard work of growing in virtue. But most writings I have found so far seem to be treatments of male sexuality, and while there is an acknowledgement that female sexuality, sexual response, and sexual function is different than that of males, there is no treatment of the actual nature of female sexuality, and of moral attitudes and behaviors for wives. Far and away, the largest focal point seems to be to direct husbands to love their wives with a Christ-like love, and then nothing is said to wives about how to receive that love without being selfish.
 
Why doesn’t this come up when you’re cooking–that is, do you worry so much about choosing and preparing and seasoning your husband’s food that it would be in bad faith to take your own preferences into account in the process? Would he want you to do that? Not in a million years! No, you take both into account in one package, because you both will enjoy the most if the needs of both are taken into account. Going without this or waiting for that for the sake of the other is the kind of self-sacrifice that you gladly and willingly make when you are sharing something pleasurable with someone in a spirit of love, whether it is food, or a walk on the beach or parenting your children or the marital embrace. You also don’t punish yourself (I hope) when you are kept from doing all you’d like because of other demands in other spheres of your life or lack of aptitude or illness. It is just like that. Don’t make it out to be something foreign to all the other things you do in your marriage!
 
I am not making this out to be anything. Rather, I am just trying to throw off an old paradigm and embrace a new one. As I read, questions are raised as I struggle to understand. You must understand me please, I was raised in a Christian in-name-only family and community. The ideas about marriage and sexuality that I inherited were terribly warped. I am striving mightily to root out the vestiges of those beliefs. The only way I am capable of doing that is by diving into the Catholic teaching and becoming able to understand it from the inside out. This approach is working for me, but sometimes I encounter obstacles. And with regards to marriage and the natural give-and-take, well, no one can take for granted that I understood that prior to conversion either, because I did not. Christian marriage was shown to me to be the husband as totalitarian dictator, the wife as resentful but obedient servant, the children as property, yada yada. 😦

I have some ideas floating around in my thoughts that could help me to resolve this paradox in a Catholic way, but I really want to hear from people who were actually raised with the proper instruction from the get-go, or at least who had plenty of access to Catholic teaching and opportunity to properly form their conscience and learn about marriage and love and sex.

Thanks! 🙂
 
At Christmas or your Anniversary, even though you lovingly focused on getting your husband a nice present, and since you love him, you enjoy giving him his present, you certainly should accept and enjoy the present he is lovingly giving you. It is possible to do this without your main focus being “what am I going to get?”.
 
Christ said that It’s better to give than to receive. This applies even to sex, as in your post. It’s not wrong to receive, but it is better to give.

I don’t know the reason (from God’s point of view) why women have a harder time climaxing than men do. From what I understand from your original post, you seem to feel that a woman is responsible for her own orgasm. Well, don’t pressure yourself so much. It takes the joy out of it: I know from experience that worrying about your spouse’s orgasm or even your own climax takes away from the good of the experience.

In sex, give your best and thank God that you’re even able to have sex with your spouse.
 
lifeisbeautiful said:
At Christmas or your Anniversary, even though you lovingly focused on getting your husband a nice present, and since you love him, you enjoy giving him his present, you certainly should accept and enjoy the present he is lovingly giving you. It is possible to do this without your main focus being “what am I going to get?”.
Click to expand...
This analogy kind of goes straight to the heart of what I have been thinking. How loving would it be, really, for the wife to say with her body “I love you and I want to give myself to you to bring you joy, but I reject the gift you desire to give me and refuse to enjoy your loving me.”?
Another possible resolution is this:
A husband can receive through giving.
A wife can give by receiving.
There may be many more possible resolutions to the paradox. My main concerns for this thread are to consider the possible resolutions and to make sure my resolutions are truly Catholic. Thanks! 🙂
 
bsroufek said:
Christ said that It’s better to give than to receive. This applies even to sex, as in your post. It’s not wrong to receive, but it is better to give.

I don’t know the reason (from God’s point of view) why women have a harder time climaxing than men do. From what I understand from your original post, you seem to feel that a woman is responsible for her own orgasm. Well, don’t pressure yourself so much. It takes the joy out of it: I know from experience that worrying about your spouse’s orgasm or even your own climax takes away from the good of the experience.

In sex, give your best and thank God that you’re even able to have sex with your spouse.
Click to expand...
I do not feel the wife is responsible for her own climax. Rather, her climax is impossible unless she relaxes, lets her husband give her sensations which she accepts and pays attention to. This requires her to remain passive and to concentrate for a while. It means that during that time, she is not focused upon pleasing her husband, but instead allowing for him to please her. I know this is good, I just wanted to explore the how and why it is good. Thanks! 🙂
 
mommamaree said:
I am not making this out to be anything. Rather, I am just trying to throw off an old paradigm and embrace a new one. As I read, questions are raised as I struggle to understand. You must understand me please, I was raised in a Christian in-name-only family and community. The ideas about marriage and sexuality that I inherited were terribly warped. I am striving mightily to root out the vestiges of those beliefs. The only way I am capable of doing that is by diving into the Catholic teaching and becoming able to understand it from the inside out. This approach is working for me, but sometimes I encounter obstacles. And with regards to marriage and the natural give-and-take, well, no one can take for granted that I understood that prior to conversion either, because I did not. Christian marriage was shown to me to be the husband as totalitarian dictator, the wife as resentful but obedient servant, the children as property, yada yada. 😦

I have some ideas floating around in my thoughts that could help me to resolve this paradox in a Catholic way, but I really want to hear from people who were actually raised with the proper instruction from the get-go, or at least who had plenty of access to Catholic teaching and opportunity to properly form their conscience and learn about marriage and love and sex.

Thanks! 🙂
Click to expand...
I had a friend who told me that the Treasury Department, when they teach people who to spot fake money, do not teach them about all the fakes out there. They only teach the agents to be totally familiar with the real thing. So as you go through this, spend your energy concentrating not on the false, but on the true. “Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence and if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.” (Phil 4:8)

This is something that you learn by living it. Even people who were raised with an idea in their head about what is right still have the age-old problem of wrestling with both their own concupiscence and their own self-doubt. Again, it is like that other problem in our life, which is how to give people charity without giving in to feeding their own undue self-aggrandizement. How do we help each other along, how do we guide ourselves when we don’t trust our desires to be correct? It is an ongoing work. Don’t punish yourself for that nor come to believe that your upbringing is all to blame. It isn’t, trust me. The path to holiness has both difficulties and consolations for all of us, no matter how saintly and articulate our parents were!

I like reading “Story of a Soul”. It gives such a wonderful idea of how a saintly soul copes with these concerns. I think you’ll find both comfort and guidance in it, if you’ve not read it yet.
 
mommamaree said:
How is a woman supposed to be focused upon loving her husband with all her being during the marital act, and still be able to receive pleasure in the process, if she MUST PAY ATTENTION to the sensations occurring within her own body in order for pleasure and arousal and climax to occur?
Click to expand...
I’d concur with lifeisbeautiful and take it a step further actually. Part of the giving is receiving. That is, part of your giving yourself to your husband is receiving physical pleasure from him and emotionally bonding with him. The way I see it, it’s actually a little more obvious from the feminine perspective when one considers simply the anatomical configuration of intercourse. The wife receives her husband; therefore a large part of her giving to him is in the very act of her reception.

This extends to physical pleasure as well. Part of my wife giving to me is in the very fact that she is being receptive and feeling good! I don’t consider this merely appreciation for a gift the way one expresses thanks for a Christmas present. It in and of itself is a part of her gift to me. Her concentrating on getting to that certain point, to me, is not her getting lost in her own little world. It is instead focusing on most properly receiving from me and giving back to me via her pleasure.

Put simply, I view my wife climaxing from my stimulation as another way in which she gives to me. It’s not a selfish thing or even a self-centered thing. It’s actually at least partially selfless.
 
My husband would be disappointed and feel badly about a sexual experience that did not include my pleasure. More than half of the fun for him is pleasing me. It would hurt him if I didn’t try (and yes, often it takes a ton of focus and effort on my part) to reach orgasm. He would feel he was taking advantage of me, and that he wasn’t “man enough” to satisfy his woman. It is a service to my husband that I focus on my own pleasure. I often don’t care either way, but I want him to feel good at the end of sex and I hate faking it 🙂
 
mommamaree said:
I do not feel the wife is responsible for her own climax. Rather, her climax is impossible unless she relaxes, lets her husband give her sensations which she accepts and pays attention to. This requires her to remain passive and to concentrate for a while. It means that during that time, she is not focused upon pleasing her husband, but instead allowing for him to please her. I know this is good, I just wanted to explore the how and why it is good. Thanks! 🙂
Click to expand...
What you are going to find is that your marriage bed is about you and your husband figuring out the workings of your one flesh together. You are right, it is far better to let go of boundaries that say “this if for me” or “this is for you”. When it is working the best, the whole thing is what “we” do and what “we” decide together, and there really is no “you” vs “me” involved. It is more like deciding which direction the dance is moving, whether she is going backward and he is going forwards or the other way around. It will naturally change back and forth between those two, as the general motion of the whole dictates. The artificial considerations kind of dissolve in a very lovely way, don’t they?
 
The_Bucket said:
I’d concur with lifeisbeautiful and take it a step further actually. Part of the giving is receiving. That is, part of your giving yourself to your husband is receiving physical pleasure from him and emotionally bonding with him. The way I see it, it’s actually a little more obvious from the feminine perspective when one considers simply the anatomical configuration of intercourse. The wife receives her husband; therefore a large part of her giving to him is in the very act of her reception.

This extends to physical pleasure as well. Part of my wife giving to me is in the very fact that she is being receptive and feeling good! I don’t consider this merely appreciation for a gift the way one expresses thanks for a Christmas present. It in and of itself is a part of her gift to me. Her concentrating on getting to that certain point, to me, is not her getting lost in her own little world. It is instead focusing on most properly receiving from me and giving back to me via her pleasure.

Put simply, I view my wife climaxing from my stimulation as another way in which she gives to me. It’s not a selfish thing or even a self-centered thing. It’s actually at least partially selfless.
Click to expand...
These are helpful points, too, because first and foremost, a wife is giving her husband her very receptivity and vulnerability. Also, after the embrace, the wife gives her husband yet another gift, provided she received pleasure and joy during the embrace. That gift is her, for lack of a better term, pliability. Meaning, she more easily “molds” to her husband emotionally. There is a greater ability for her to respond to his words and actions with smiles and trust. This leads the husband to feel loved even more.
Seriously great feedback so far. Thanks! 🙂
 
JackieMom said:
My husband would be disappointed and feel badly about a sexual experience that did not include my pleasure. More than half of the fun for him is pleasing me. It would hurt him if I didn’t try (and yes, often it takes a ton of focus and effort on my part) to reach orgasm. He would feel he was taking advantage of me, and that he wasn’t “man enough” to satisfy his woman. It is a service to my husband that I focus on my own pleasure. I often don’t care either way, but I want him to feel good at the end of sex and I hate faking it 🙂
Click to expand...
Very nice thoughts here! Thanks for sharing. 🙂
 
EasterJoy said:
What you are going to find is that your marriage bed is about you and your husband figuring out the workings of your one flesh together. You are right, it is far better to let go of boundaries that say “this if for me” or “this is for you”. When it is working the best, the whole thing is what “we” do and what “we” decide together, and there really is no “you” vs “me” involved. It is more like deciding which direction the dance is moving, whether she is going backward and he is going forwards or the other way around. It will naturally change back and forth between those two, as the general motion of the whole dictates. The artificial considerations kind of dissolve in a very lovely way, don’t they?
Click to expand...
I like the dancing analogy, especially since as in ballroom dancing, the male leads and his lady follows his subtle cues, but it also about enjoying the graceful motion of two embodied persons in love! Thanks again! 🙂
 
Well just because she’s focusing on trying to reach climax herself, doesn’t mean she’s “using” her husband or not caring about what things feel like to him. Heck, he probably WANTS her to climax, so it would be beneficial to them both for her to do so.

Either way, the CCC clearly states that we’re allowed to enjoy and take pleasure in sex. Doing so doesn’t necessarily mean you’re using the other person or not caring about the other person.
 
mommamaree said:
This is just a thought that has been tumbling around in my brain for quite some time, since I began reading everything I could find that contained Church teaching regarding the proper use of our sexual faculties. Okay, here goes…
🙂

Sexual intercourse is meant to be self-donative. Each spouse ideally should be concerned with the experience of the other. Neither spouse should use the other for their own pleasure.
That part I think is agreeable to all Catholics, right?

Okay, furthermore…
A man’s orgasm is fairly easy to accomplish, generally speaking. In fact, it can occur quicker than he would desire it to occur sometimes.
A woman’s climax is not that easy to accomplish, generally speaking. In fact, it can take longer than the duration of intercourse for it to occur, and sometimes not at all.
These things most people would agree are true, right?

Okay, so the paradox…
How is a woman supposed to be focused upon loving her husband with all her being during the marital act, and still be able to receive pleasure in the process, if she MUST PAY ATTENTION to the sensations occurring within her own body in order for pleasure and arousal and climax to occur?

I would really like to hear how Catholics view and accept and understand this paradox for a healthy expression of sexuality within Christian marriage. Still being a rather new Catholic myself, I am still working diligently to expunge prior non-Catholic and pagan conditioning. It honestly can be a painful struggle to root out the lies and to embrace the truth, and I do not want to develop a neurotic attitude instead of doing the hard work of growing in virtue. But most writings I have found so far seem to be treatments of male sexuality, and while there is an acknowledgement that female sexuality, sexual response, and sexual function is different than that of males, there is no treatment of the actual nature of female sexuality, and of moral attitudes and behaviors for wives. Far and away, the largest focal point seems to be to direct husbands to love their wives with a Christ-like love, and then nothing is said to wives about how to receive that love without being selfish.
Click to expand...
Do you want to read my view? The summary of my answer is in the following words:
“The marital act is a phenomenon in three moments between two types of sexuality: the female sexuality and the male sexuality, each member of couple has to agree with its own sexuality and with the sexuality of the other: a passive agent and an active agent in functions of each moments (before, during and after). The marital act is a liturgy like in each sacrement with differents moments (the introduction, the hard core, the conclusion)”.

Do you understand that? Do you want an explicative text in the details with all the subtelties via my personnal manner of explaining??? Do you want? I am very ready, if you want really!!!
 
fpt said:
Do you want to read my view? The summary of my answer is in the following words:
“The marital act is a phenomenon in three moments between two types of sexuality: the female sexuality and the male sexuality, each member of couple has to agree with its own sexuality and with the sexuality of the other: a passive agent and an active agent in functions of each moments (before, during and after). The marital act is a liturgy like in each sacrement with differents moments (the introduction, the hard core, the conclusion)”.

Do you understand that? Do you want an explicative text in the details with all the subtelties via my personnal manner of explaining??? Do you want? I am very ready, if you want really!!!
Click to expand...
Lol!

Fpt,
Your thoughts, as always, are welcome in response to my questions. Thanks. 🙂
!!! 😃
 
What I have been taught is that the woman does not need to climax during actual sexual intercourse like her husband. She is allowed to be manually stimulated by her husband during the foreplay before the husband even comes inside her vagina. The man must of course only climax while inside his wife’s vagina. It is also alright for the woman to be stimulated to climax by her husband after he climaxes inside his wife and “exits” her vagina. The only two things that must take place for this to be allowed. is an act of sexual intercourse with the husband climaxing only vaginally and that this act be open to life.

So, with this option in mind, I don’t see what the problem would be. The wife can focus on her climax during this before or afterplay, and still be able to focus fully on the actual marital embrace and pleasing her husband and his climax.

Hope this makes since. 👍
 
To be clear, I understand the moral permissability of all this. My questions are concerning the underlying theology that explains it all. I really like to dig deep into meanings and reasons why something is true. It helps me to fully internalize the truth and spot the lies. 🙂
 
mommamaree said:
To be clear, I understand the moral permissibility of all this. My questions are concerning the underlying theology that explains it all. I really like to dig deep into meanings and reasons why something is true. It helps me to fully internalize the truth and spot the lies. 🙂
Click to expand...
My husband and I have concluded (through our own personal pondering of this subject) why God might allow the climatic curves to be so different. It requires be the man to slow down and take the time and effort to selflessly and self-sacrificially love and please his wife even to climax. As the old saying goes, and if it were solely up to the husband’s climatic curve only, it would be “wham, bam, thank-you mam” and be over in five minutes. :o Hence, the wife wouldn’t get the necessary emotional satisfaction of prolonged close contact with her husband that her much longer climatic curve requires. Hence she gets both the emotional connection time with her husband AND the physical pleasure of a climax. If the climatic curves were equal, the woman would not get that much desired (and needed) emotional satisfaction.
 
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