How do you view doctrines?

[SSTeacher]

Do you view them as,

a) Pivotal – without doctrines there can be no basis for religion
b) Important – ideas have consequences
c) Desirable – doctrines help us to understand something about God
d) Relative – doctrines aren’t the same thing as truth
e) Unhelpful – doctrines tend hinder holiness
f) Unwelcome – doctrines cause disagreements and all we need is love
g) Dangerous – one can never be sure whether doctrines are true or false

Funk & Wagnalls defines the word “doctrine” as follows:

That which is taught or set forth for acceptance as belief; that which is held to be true by any person, sect, or school; especially, in religion, a tenet, or body of tenets; belief; dogma.

Peace,
Mick

 

[crazzeto]

I go with option a, and I think we see the clear result of any other option. Disunity, in fighting and a host of different (incorrect) beleifs about the faith. This is why Jesus prayed that we (Christians) might “all be one, and we are one”. This is why St. Left Timothy behind (as Bishop) when he moved on to Macedonia, so that “no other doctrine (teaching) may be taught”.

 

[Departed_Light]

I guess I have a hard time knowing what is and is not doctrine.

The Trinity as doctrine I would say is pivotal.
The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin as doctrine I would say is unwelcome to dangerous.

I would have to look at each as a case by case basis. There can be a lot of in between.

 

[Publisher]

Do you view them as,

a) Pivotal – without doctrines there can be no basis for religion
b) Important – ideas have consequences
c) Desirable – doctrines help us to understand something about God
d) Relative – doctrines aren’t the same thing as truth
e) Unhelpful – doctrines tend hinder holiness
f) Unwelcome – doctrines cause disagreements and all we need is love
g) Dangerous – one can never be sure whether doctrines are true or false

Funk & Wagnalls defines the word “doctrine” as follows:

That which is taught or set forth for acceptance as belief; that which is held to be true by any person, sect, or school; especially, in religion, a tenet, or body of tenets; belief; dogma.

Peace,
Mick

I would say both b. and d. Doctrines are important as “ideas have consequences”. If we held a doctrine that certain races or groups of people were inferior…that is a doctrine which fosters ideas damaging to the soul.

Doctrines are not the “Source”…they point to the “Source”…they are not “Truth”…they are human expressions of Truth…some doctrine is more profound in character than others…that God would enter our humanity as one of us and effect the work on our behalf that we ourselves could not do is a statement of an “idea” that can change one’s life in deep and profound ways…that we are loved and grace is available…I am amazed at the astounding love of God expressed in Christ. Other doctrines such as “one true church” or “papal infallability” really pale to nothingness…IMO…in comparison.

 

[crazzeto]

I guess I have a hard time knowing what is and is not doctrine.

The Trinity as doctrine I would say is pivotal.
The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin as doctrine I would say is unwelcome to dangerous.

I would have to look at each as a case by case basis. There can be a lot of in between.

Thankfully Christ left us a Church, which the Apostles faithfully built up so that we can have an answer to this question:

drbo.org/chapter/61003.htm

14 These things I write to thee, hoping that I shall come to thee shortly. 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

The authoritative, physical, spirital, universal (Catholic) church.

 

[chaunceygardner]

It depends on the purpose of doctrine. Is it a way of stating a position or agreement on a belief? “this is what WE believe”; or is it a requirement? - “This is what YOU MUST believe.”

I would agree with Publisher that most doctrine is human defined, and is based on our poor understanding of God’s Word, and our human limitations in relating to God. That so many people and groups disagree over doctrine shows that to be the case. Just like with civil laws and many other organizational processes, we tend to expand and complicate doctrine, rather than trying to distill and simplify.

I TRY to look at any doctrine from the point of view of Jesus. Is it critical or important to what He was showing and telling us? Or is the doctrine opposed to His message, or does the doctrine detract from it, or just not important to it? In that respect I appear to be similar to Departed Light.

So in summary I would say the answer is “all of the above”.

 

[ckempston]

Thankfullly, we have a Biblical answer to this:

John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.

If it came to us from the Apostles, then it is some combination of A through C. Since Jesus said that the Apostles would be led into all truth, then anything that came after the Apostles would be some combination of D through G.

We have a fairly simple choice: believe what Jesus said, that all truth was revealed to the Apostles, and therefore nothing further is necessary, or that man is free to come up with all kinds of absurd doctrines mingling Western Philosophy with revealed truth. I’ll take Jesus.

 

[agiosotheos]

A, B, and C.

 

[Nine_Two]

A. Certainly.

 

[dzheremi]

Are we supposed to pick just one? Because I see A, B, and C as all working together, while D through G also work together but for the opposite viewpoint.

I would say A through C. Are there really self-identified Christians out there who believe that doctrines are unhelpful, especially in light of the definition given out of F&W? That blows my mind. Or are we talking about non-religious doctrines?

 

[SSTeacher]

Are we supposed to pick just one? Because I see A, B, and C as all working together, while D through G also work together but for the opposite viewpoint.

I would say A through C. Are there really self-identified Christians out there who believe that doctrines are unhelpful, especially in light of the definition given out of F&W? That blows my mind. Or are we talking about non-religious doctrines?

In a small group setting during a discussion as to the subject of a future Bible study I once heard a senior Evangelical make the following statement:

We don’t want to get involved in doctrine – that just causes arguments.

So I guess a reasonable conclusion is that he considered doctrine in some sense as unhelpful.

Peace,
Mick

 

[ralphinal]

The problem with throwing doctrines out is that you are ignoring WHY the doctrines were developed in the first place. We have dogmas because misunderstandings and heresies developed. Was Jesus Truly God and Truly man? What is the relationship between Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit? These things are not clear enough in the Bible. They had to be clarified under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

All of the choices have a level of truth to them. Some are completely true and some are almost completely false, but even those have merit.

A, B, and C are completely true, the rest are not.

D is true when we are looking at man-made doctrines

E is almost never true, but does hold water when looking at people who miss the forrest for the trees

F is almost completely false. If all we need is love, what is love?

G is true 100% of the time when you do not trust Jesus’s promise to send the Holy Spirit to guide his Church to all Truth. It is 100% false if you do

 

[SSTeacher]

F is almost completely false. If all we need is love, what is love?

God is love.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[ralphinal]

God is love.

Cordially,
Mick

God is also Truth.

If all we need is God, is Islam = Judaism = Christianity?

How do you define “having God?”

 

[2nd_Adam]

Do you view them as,

a) Pivotal – without doctrines there can be no basis for religion
b) Important – ideas have consequences
c) Desirable – doctrines help us to understand something about God
d) Relative – doctrines aren’t the same thing as truth
e) Unhelpful – doctrines tend hinder holiness
f) Unwelcome – doctrines cause disagreements and all we need is love
g) Dangerous – one can never be sure whether doctrines are true or false

Funk & Wagnalls defines the word “doctrine” as follows:

That which is taught or set forth for acceptance as belief; that which is held to be true by any person, sect, or school; especially, in religion, a tenet, or body of tenets; belief; dogma.

Peace,
Mick

Sound doctrine will grow our love and affection for God. Unsound doctrine will inflame our love for the idols that we have in our hearts. Without this insight, you will not grow in your love and affection for God.

 

[StrawberryJam]

There are so many of them in the Catholic Church that are all interconnected there is no way you can take some out without it effecting a lot of other doctrines. Nevermind the dogmas since they can’t be touched at all. So, I guess tons and tons of doctrines must be learned and understood and practiced. At first I found it comforting seeing how nearly every topic under the sun has been analyzed by the church so a person is never in the dark about anything and can know what is expected of them but now I’m seeing it as a ton of superfluous stuff and a lot of people here are agonizing, really agonizing over topics that they should not be wasting a second of their life thinking about- like can I go to this baby shower type of stuff and even more trivial matters. I feel so sorry for these types of folks that are terrifyed of the thought they may be sending themselves to purgatory or hell over these things. It makes me angry that the church does not get help for these people they scared so badly. Something should be done.

 

[ralphinal]

There are so many of them in the Catholic Church that are all interconnected there is no way you can take some out without it effecting a lot of other doctrines. Nevermind the dogmas since they can’t be touched at all. So, I guess tons and tons of doctrines must be learned and understood and practiced. At first I found it comforting seeing how nearly every topic under the sun has been analyzed by the church so a person is never in the dark about anything and can know what is expected of them but now I’m seeing it as a ton of superfluous stuff and a lot of people here are agonizing, really agonizing over topics that they should not be wasting a second of their life thinking about- like can I go to this baby shower type of stuff and even more trivial matters. I feel so sorry for these types of folks that are terrifyed of the thought they may be sending themselves to purgatory or hell over these things. It makes me angry that the church does not get help for these people they scared so badly. Something should be done.

I think you might have lumped several different things together. Most of the doctrines are there to assure people of what is True and what is not. These are not trivial issues. Most people who get stressed out over things are not stressed over the doctrines but over disciplines or over actual behavior. More than likely, they would find something else to stress over.

If I am wrong about what you are saying, I am sorry. Please feel free to correct my concept of what you are saying

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5900731:

God is love.

Cordially,
Mick

God is also Truth.

If all we need is God, is Islam = Judaism = Christianity?

How do you define “having God?”

Those are challenging questions. Paragraph 841 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church is the subject of current thread wherein Catholics are struggling to answer them. I note that in your last post on that thread you conceded that you’d misunderstood the Original Poster the whole time you’d been posting. So, given that it’s difficult for members of at least one faith community to reach a consensus, I guess the only answer acceptable to all is that in the final analysis everything depends upon one’s presuppositions.

Helpfully,
Mick

 

[ralphinal]

Those are challenging questions. Paragraph 841 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church is the subject of current thread wherein Catholics are struggling to answer them. I note that in your last post on that thread you conceded that you’d misunderstood the Original Poster the whole time you’d been posting. So, given that it’s difficult for members of at least one faith community to reach a consensus, I guess the only answer acceptable to all is that in the final analysis everything depends upon one’s presuppositions.

Helpfully,
Mick

Ah, no. I understand full well what the Church teaches. What I did not understand was HIS understanding of what the Church teaches. His understanding will always be his, even if that understanding changes. That does not change the teachings of the Church. A million people can read things a million ways. That does not make any of them right about it. The Truth is still the Truth even if no one accepts it.

If we look at that topic, that passage of the CCC is not actually a doctrine of the Church. It can change as information comes to light. What it is saying is that Muslims claim something and, if we accept that claim, they are praying to the same God as us. If, later, we learn that they did not claim that, then the teaching can change.

Doctrines are there to clarify issues. They typically arise when we are faced with heresy.

 

[ralphinal]

Ah, no. I understand full well what the Church teaches. What I did not understand was HIS understanding of what the Church teaches. His understanding will always be his, even if that understanding changes. That does not change the teachings of the Church. A million people can read things a million ways. That does not make any of them right about it. The Truth is still the Truth even if no one accepts it.

If we look at that topic, that passage of the CCC is not actually a doctrine of the Church. It can change as information comes to light. What it is saying is that Muslims claim something and, if we accept that claim, they are praying to the same God as us. If, later, we learn that they did not claim that, then the teaching can change. His position, as I now understand it, is that Muslims make no such claim and that they do NOT pray to our God. My original position was that he misunderstood what the Church meant by “profess.” I was wrong.

Doctrines are there to clarify issues. They typically arise when we are faced with heresy.