How do you view Matthew 16:13 through 20? What does it mean to you?

[Wannano]

Wannano:

While thinking on this more I realize I could ask more direct questions. Does the CC not teach that Jesus meant that He would build his Church upon the man Peter/rock based on that verse?

I think the import thing that we are to keep in mind is that Jesus said “He would build His Church”.

Jesus is the one to build the Church, we don’t deny that here. I’m wondering if this is the hang up. We fully believe Jesus built His Church. But when we get down to the nitty gritty how exactly did Jesus perform this miracle? Did He just snap His fingers and say here’s the Church? or Did He build it on the blood, sweat and tears of the Apostles and all the Christian Martyrs throughout the world, whom (as you asked) yes many other verses of scripture make it definitively evident, that St. Peter was their visible leader still present here on earth.

If I had more time right now I would be happy to go through the many verses that make it so obvious that Jesus set St. Peter apart from the other Apostles for something very important.

On a final note, it is common sense to me, I know of no organization that has survived without a visible leader.

I would love to discuss this more if you have any further questions.

God Bless

I am not a Biblical scholar of any kind but just a simple lay man so my thinking may not satisfy the wise of the world.

It seems that Jesus builds his church one convert at a time. I do not believe He ever intended to build an earthly organization of riches, power and splendor. At Pentecost, Peter being a man of leadership quality preached the message of salvation: Repent and be baptized. They added 3000 “souls” in that day when the Word was preached. This is how Jesus builds His Church, that is, one changed person at a time. The Church is the people who have surrendered to Jesus. This Church is completely voluntary and no one can be forced into it. It has Jesus Himself as the Leader and if individual members are completely surrendered to Him and follow His simple message of love and follow His greatest commandment to love God and our neighbor as ourself the world would be changed. Jesus emphasized that His Kingdom is not of this world. His message is foolishness to the world.

Acts 2:47 …“And the Lord added to the Church daily such as should be saved.” Jesus builds His Church one saved soul at a time. When we repent and are baptized we join in His catholic church. We are to live our lives in relationship with Him and that is for every person not just those we term as the “religious.” When we die, we will stand before God alone. Will we hear Him smile and say “well done thou good and faithful servant?”

 

[lanman87]

Also, how can you ever know if you are forgiven? Other than your gut feeling what evidence do you have that you “REALLY” confess Christ?

I’ll take a stab at this one.

To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name. Acts: 10:43

So the question that comes is “What does it mean to believe?”

I was taught that to believe means to understand ,accept, and trust the message of the Gospel because of a work of the Holy Spirit on the persons heart. This change of heart results in repentance, confession, worship, service, study, ministry and so forth. Therefore, true belief means to have been born again by the spirit, made a new creation in Christ, and to be adopted as a child of God by the Holy Spirit.

If you truly believe(trust) in Christ then can be confident that you have been forgiven. We are saved by belief/faith/trust in Christ. We repent because we believe, we confess because we believe, we worship because we believe, we serve because we believe… We are saved and it is made evident when the things we do come from a heart change from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh. If what we do doesn’t reflect this heart change then our heart hasn’t been changed and we are deceiving ourselves. Or if we do things that we know we are supposed to do (confess, repent, worship…) out of our own power and due to intellectual or religious zeal without the heart change we are also deceiving ourselves.

 

[MT1926]

It seems that Jesus builds his church one convert at a time. I do not believe He ever intended to build an earthly organization of riches, power and splendor.

Not sure what you are trying to say here so I won’t jump to conclusions. I think the only thing I would ask is can we spread the gospel message to the entire world using absolutely no money?

At Pentecost, Peter being a man of leadership quality preached the message of salvation: Repent and be baptized. They added 3000 “souls” in that day when the Word was preached. This is how Jesus builds His Church, that is, one changed person at a time.

Amen, Jesus built his Church 3000 souls larger that day on Peter’s preaching. This is the exact point I’m trying to get across. Jesus doesn’t do it by himself, don’t get me wrong I’m sure He could do it faster and better, but that is not how He wanted it done. He wanted our involvement.

This is how Jesus builds His Church, that is, one changed person at a time.

Yes and He used us to initiate the change.

It has Jesus Himself as the Leader and if individual members are completely surrendered to Him and follow His simple message of love and follow His greatest commandment to love God and our neighbor as ourself the world would be changed.

Amen preach it brother.

Acts 2:47 …“And the Lord added to the Church daily such as should be saved.” Jesus builds His Church one saved soul at a time. When we repent and are baptized we join in His catholic church. We are to live our lives in relationship with Him and that is for every person not just those we term as the “religious.” When we die, we will stand before God alone. Will we hear Him smile and say “well done thou good and faithful servant?”

Amen. But nothing you say here proves that Jesus did not intend to leave us faithful men in charge to make sure that we don’t twist His message and end up following our own desires or what we believe it means to be in relationship with Jesus.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

I was taught that to believe means to understand ,accept, and trust the message of the Gospel because of a work of the Holy Spirit on the persons heart. This change of heart results in repentance, confession, worship, service, study, ministry and so forth. Therefore, true belief means to have been born again by the spirit, made a new creation in Christ, and to be adopted as a child of God by the Holy Spirit.

This sound pretty close to Catholic teaching to me.
Catholics understand ,accept, and trust the message that Jesus left us a teaching Authority here on earth so that we can have assurance that when we interpret the Gospels we can know that we are in line with what Jesus truly taught.

Catholics change of heart results in…
repentance in the Sacrament of Confession
worship in the Sacrament of the Eucharist
service, study, ministry and so forth which to us would fall into the category of good works.

I have no objections here.

continued…

 

[MT1926]

If you truly believe(trust) in Christ then can be confident that you have been forgiven.

This I believe is the heart of this entire thread. How can you know that you truly believe(trust) in Christ? If this is what is needed for forgiveness then how do you know you truly(which I would define to mean fully) trust Christ and not just trusting in what you believe Christ wants.

Here is an example.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Guy A states I know my sins are forgiven because I truly trusted everything Christ taught and when He said this I got Baptized.

Guy B states I know my sins are forgiven because I truly trusted everything Christ taught and when He said this in John 3 I didn’t get Baptized, like those heathen Catholics do, but I said the sinners prayer and was born again which is what Jesus meant here.

John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “ Truly , truly , I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;

Guy A states I know my sins are forgiven because I truly trusted everything Christ taught and when He Literally said this I believe in the real presence.

Guy B states I know my sins are forgiven because I truly trusted everything Christ taught and when He Symbolically said this I know He was referring to believing in Him.

Now I’m not going to get into which one of these guys interpretations are correct but I’m sure you would at least agree that one of them isn’t “Truly Trusting in Christ”, correct?

Which brings me back to the point I was trying to make how can you know that you “REALLY” confess Christ? Both Guy A and Guy B claim they do but it is obvious that one of them must be wrong.

To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name. Acts: 10:43

Final verse.

Guy A uses Acts 10:43 to claim that we don’t need to confess to a priest because our sins are forgiven though His name.

Guy B states Acts 10:43 has nothing to do with confession. If you read this verse in the context of the Chapter it is plain to see that this is speaking of the forgiveness of sins coming through the invocation of Christ’s name when we are Baptized.

Guy C states Baptism is only symbolic and your sins aren’t forgiven in Baptism.

Guy D states Baptism isn’t even needed as a symbol.

I’m sure you see where I am going here, who is Truly Trusting Christ and how do they know?

Thanks for the dialogue.

God Bless

 

[Wannano]

I believe Jesus did leave us faithful men to carry on in truthfulness. I also believe He inspired the writers of the New Testament to provide all that is necessary to convey His plan of salvation. What is not found in Scripture is not what gives most people a problem rather it is what is found in Scripture. There is no guarantee though that unfaithful men won’t do the things you suggest. I think Paul even suggested they were already there inside the Church.

 

[mcq72]

If you are claiming everything we do and believe had to be written is stone, in some instruction manual (which the Bible is not) and performed by the Apostles before they died then the entire Christian faith falls apart.

No back pedaling…we both do plenty that is quite scriptural, as done by apostles and first church…yet as you seem to be pointing out, there is also a pattern found in OT, where indeed many things done by Jews at the time of Jesus were quite in harmony and done as their first forefathers in the faith, but not all.

There is the catch…are all things that “developed” in harmony with apostles?..I know CC thinks so in terms of faith and morals, that things have not fallen apart, even if resting on tradition and not explicit by apostles and scripture…and her teachings claim to be “apostolic”, and having “unanimous consent of fathers”, and without error. Yet the church is divided, as Judaism was, as to who has rightly followed God’s intent on a matter.

Both testaments, covenants, have same challenge, of having correct understanding of founding forefathers and their writings…and that being conditionally dependent on reliance on God’s gracious guidance and promises, even under our better dispensation of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Wannano]

lanman87:

If you truly believe(trust) in Christ then can be confident that you have been forgiven.

This I believe is the heart of this entire thread. How can you know that you truly believe(trust) in Christ? If this is what is needed for forgiveness then how do you know you truly(which I would define to mean fully) trust Christ and not just trusting in what you believe Christ wants.

Here is an example.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Guy A states I know my sins are forgiven because I truly trusted everything Christ taught and when He said this I got Baptized.

Guy B states I know my sins are forgiven because I truly trusted everything Christ taught and when He said this in John 3 I didn’t get Baptized, like those heathen Catholics do, but I said the sinners prayer and was born again which is what Jesus meant here.

John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “ Truly , truly , I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;

Guy A states I know my sins are forgiven because I truly trusted everything Christ taught and when He Literally said this I believe in the real presence.

Guy B states I know my sins are forgiven because I truly trusted everything Christ taught and when He Symbolically said this I know He was referring to believing in Him.

Now I’m not going to get into which one of these guys interpretations are correct but I’m sure you would at least agree that one of them isn’t “Truly Trusting in Christ”, correct?

Which brings me back to the point I was trying to make how can you know that you “REALLY” confess Christ? Both Guy A and Guy B claim they do but it is obvious that one of them must be wrong.

To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name. Acts: 10:43

Final verse.

Guy A uses Acts 10:43 to claim that we don’t need to confess to a priest because our sins are forgiven though His name.

Guy B states Acts 10:43 has nothing to do with confession. If you read this verse in the context of the Chapter it is plain to see that this is speaking of the forgiveness of sins coming through the invocation of Christ’s name when we are Baptized.

Guy C states Baptism is only symbolic and your sins aren’t forgiven in Baptism.

Guy D states Baptism isn’t even needed as a symbol.

I’m sure you see where I am going here, who is Truly Trusting Christ and how do they know?

Thanks for the dialogue.

God Bless

You forgot about guy E. He states that it means that only through faith in Jesus can one be right with God. He says the verse has nothing to do with confession or baptism.

 

[JeremiahB]

Simon is referred to as Simon Barjona in verse 16.17
“And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”

Barjona is “Son of Jonah”.

Jonah was called upon by God to warn Nineveh to repent of its sins or face retribution. Instead, Jonah boarded a ship to Tarshish. Caught in a storm, Jonah ordered the ship’s crew to cast him overboard, whereupon he was wallowed by a giant fish. Three days later, after Jonah agreed to go to Nineveh, the fish vomited him out onto the shore. Jonah successfully convinced the entire city of Nineveh to repent, but waited outside the city in expectation of its destruction. God shielded Jonah from the sun with a plant, but later sent a worm to cause it to wither. When Jonah complained of the bitter heat, God rebuked him.

As Jonah was imperfect, so was Simon Barjona and therefore the “rock” also. Even the hardest granite has its weaknesses and anything built on it is still prone to earthquakes. Building on sand, on the other hand, forces one to adapt, reappraise and regularly rebuild, stronger each time.

Mathew 7.9
Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

Contemplate this verse.

 

[njlisa]

I don’t know whether these verses have been discussed.

I offer these verses from James 5:

14 Is anyone among you sick?* He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint [him] with oil in the name of the Lord,j 15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.*

Here, I’m noting that presbyters (elders) are given the unique authority to anoint the sick.

Verse 16 states:
Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.

The role of the priesthood dates back to the time of Moses. Leviticus 16 explains the High Priest’s role on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur). Through elaborate rituals, the Priest places all the sins of himself and the rest of the sins on the scapegoat.

The truth of the Scriptures does not rely on a few verses. We must look at the arc of the teachings, as interpreted through tradition.

 

[lanman87]

Now I’m not going to get into which one of these guys interpretations are correct but I’m sure you would at least agree that one of them isn’t “Truly Trusting in Christ”, correct?

They may have wrong interpretations, but being forgiven/saved doesn’t come from having the correct interpretation, it comes from belief/faith/trust. It is possible to have a changed heart and faith/belief in Christ and have the wrong interpretation of scripture. When we come into to judgement Christ isn’t going to ask us if we “got it right” He is going to say “I knew you” or “I didn’t know you”. He isn’t going to say, “I changed your heart, filled you with the Holy Spirit, you were adopted into my family and you lived a life of faith and love, but your understanding about baptism is wrong so sorry it is off to hell with you”.

 

[MT1926]

You forgot about guy E. He states that it means that only through faith in Jesus can one be right with God. He says the verse has nothing to do with confession or baptism.

OK now we have 5 different people all claiming to be fully trusting 5 different and contradictory teachings of Jesus and your point is?

Because it sure sounds like you are agreeing with me

 

[MT1926]

They may have wrong interpretations, but being forgiven/saved doesn’t come from having the correct interpretation, it comes from belief/faith/trust. It is possible to have a changed heart and faith/belief in Christ and have the wrong interpretation of scripture. When we come into to judgement Christ isn’t going to ask us if we “got it right” He is going to say “I knew you” or “I didn’t know you”. He isn’t going to say, “I changed your heart, filled you with the Holy Spirit, you were adopted into my family and you lived a life of faith and love, but your understanding about baptism is wrong so sorry it is off to hell with you”.

Ok so now you are saying we don’t need to Truly Trust Christ to have our sins forgiven? We just have to have faith? Which one is it?

I even said I wasn’t getting into the interpretation because I knew you would hone in on that and totally ignore my argument.

So let’s make it simple, if Jesus says we must do X and we say nope that’s not what We believe he meant are we truly trusting Him?

Yes or No it’s that simple.

 

[lanman87]

So let’s make it simple, if Jesus says we must do X and we say nope that’s not what We believe he meant are we truly trusting Him?

I’m re-posting because I misread your statement.

The problem is instead of just doing what Jesus says many will say “Jesus says X and this is what X means”. Most of theology is speculating on what X means. All of those things are the opinions on men. Granted, they are sometimes very educated and learned men but they are still men. Every Early Church Father, Doctor of the Church, Protestant Theologian and every person who talks theology on this board (including me) is influenced by what we have been taught, our culture, our experiences, our prejudices, our politics and so on. We filter what X means through all of those things. Which is why there are sometimes different views on what X means.

It is possible for people to have different answers to X and still be in Christ and Christ in them. God’s grace is bigger than our understandings or lack thereof. Our status as a new Creation in Christ/adopted Child of God is the basis of our relationship with Christ, not our different understandings of what X means.

 

[MT1926]

Sorry I’m having a hard time understanding what you are responding to?

About the only thing I understood and agree with is,…

Yet the church is divided, as Judaism was, as to who has rightly followed God’s intent on a matter.

Totally agree Christianity is divided, it really is sad that we are.

My opinion of the division is because of our fallen human nature. Nothing has changed since the garden. Adam and Eve wanted God’s knowledge for themselves, they didn’t want to submit to His authority. Same Goes today. The Apostles put some of God’s knowledge in a book called the Bible. For 1500 years humans were willing to submit to the authority Jesus left to keep His knowledge from being userped by humans. But just like the garden we have fallen again. We said no we will not submit, we grabbed God’s knowledge and now tell Jesus what he really meant when he taught.

How far we have fallen.

I pray a God has mercy on us sinners.

God Bless

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

You forgot about guy E. He states that it means that only through faith in Jesus can one be right with God. He says the verse has nothing to do with confession or baptism.

OK now we have 5 different people all claiming to be fully trusting 5 different and contradictory teachings of Jesus and your point is?

Because it sure sounds like you are agreeing with me

I thought the guys were stating what Acts 10:43 says to them and as far as my Guy E is concerned they all had it wrong. Actually verse 43 isnot actual teaching of Jesus right?

Guy E forgot to mention that he was unsure of where you were going with that.

 

[MT1926]

Most of theology is speculating on what X means. All of those things are the opinions on men.

If the best we can do with the Bible is to bring out of it opinions of men why would Jesus leave us the Bible as our sole rule of faith?

Sure seems to me, as a business man, that it would’ve been smarter to leave someone in charge so we wouldn’t end up with nothing more than a bunch of opinions.

It is possible for people to have different answers to X and still be in Christ and Christ in them. God’s grace is bigger than our understandings or lack thereof. Our status as a new Creation in Christ/adopted Child of God is the basis of our relationship with Christ, not our different understandings of what X means.

You are still not understanding my point. I never claimed it was based on X. It just seemed to me if you are to truly trust someone you would need to trust everything they told you to do. I was just trying to understand how you can truly trust someone even though you might not believe what they say or teach.

Just wanted to add it not being based on us coming up with our own understanding of X is Catholic teaching and the teaching of Jesus. That’s why he left us faithful men with one particular man in charge to teach us, this way we wouldn’t have to try and figure it out on our own.

 

[Wannano]

Sorry I’m having a hard time understanding what you are responding to?

About the only thing I understood and agree with is,…

mcq72:

Yet the church is divided, as Judaism was, as to who has rightly followed God’s intent on a matter.

Totally agree Christianity is divided, it really is sad that we are.

My opinion of the division is because of our fallen human nature. Nothing has changed since the garden. Adam and Eve wanted God’s knowledge for themselves, they didn’t want to submit to His authority. Same Goes today. The Apostles put some of God’s knowledge in a book called the Bible. For 1500 years humans were willing to submit to the authority Jesus left to keep His knowledge from being userped by humans. But just like the garden we have fallen again. We said no we will not submit, we grabbed God’s knowledge and now tell Jesus what he really meant when he taught.

How far we have fallen.

I pray a God has mercy on us sinners.

God Bless

You have some good thought here but allow me to challenge you ok? I am fairly positive you are talking about “Protestants” and that they are the ones challenging God. How do you explain that Catholics are not doing the very same thing for as I read it is quite popular now for Catholics to not believe in the Genesis account of creation and in fact belueve in evolution. The Church no longer apparently requires belief in the Biblical account of Creation and that Adam and Eve were the two people made by God from dust and bone. Is that submission?

 

[MT1926]

You have some good thought here but allow me to challenge you ok? I am fairly positive you are talking about “Protestants” and that they are the ones challenging God. How do you explain that Catholics are not doing the very same thing for as I read it is quite popular now for Catholics to not believe in the Genesis account of creation and in fact belueve in evolution. The Church no longer apparently requires belief in the Biblical account of Creation and that Adam and Eve were the two people made by God from dust and bone. Is that submission?

Because the Catholic Church never taught an official position with regards to Genesis. They never infallible proclaimed that the creation account was a historically accurate account of creation.

So not real sure what you are trying to prove?

Just wanted to add that the fact She hasn’t taken an official position kind of shows to me that She isn’t challenging God. Basically, She says yep God created everything if you wanna know the fine details your gonna have to ask Him when you get there

 

[lanman87]

It just seemed to me if you are to truly trust someone you would need to trust everything they told you to do. I

Except for a few minor groups, Christianity as a whole teaches to trust in Christ, be baptized, repent, confess and overcome sin in our life, love God and love others, serve the poor and help those in need, observe the Lord’s Supper, pray, study, worship God, meet together, and to invite people to come to faith in Christ. Assuming that I’m doing/have done those things, what exactly am I not trusting/doing that Christ calls us to do?