How do you view Matthew 16:13 through 20? What does it mean to you?

[MT1926]

Again, on somethings either/or is unwise.For instance the thread has discussed creation, and that the church allows differing understandings of sacred sources. It is not right/ wrong so long as we all understand that there is an Author of it all, that indeed God created.

OK I’m still confused here? Because I’m the one who said either/or is unwise when claiming it has to be either Peter or his confession. Instead of it being the man Peter and his confession.

I agree with your example of creation, to claim it has to be either creationism or evolution is unwise it would be better to state it could be both and which would mean that God created everything.

Can you see why I am not following your response? What am I missing here?

Also, not seeing how comparing our belief on creation, which Jesus does not teach on, to say Baptism, which He does, can be thought to be on the same level “dogmatic” level?

So now are we being dogmatic on some things unwisely ? So did the priest and his parish/communion participants in France in the 9th century show signs of less spiritual vitality than his doctrinal rival, in same city, due to communion views?

Sorry my name is not Jimmy Akin (the walking encyclopedia). I don’t know what you are referencing here.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

Not saying it is right to be wrong but you can be wrong in saying It’s the only game for all things.

Was it wrong for eastern churches to celebrate Easter differently than western churches, to continue their tradition going back to apostles?

I thought that issue was settled, wasn’t it?

 

[paul_abrahamsa]

Its talking about Jesus giving the keys to the disciples. Rick means Faith in Jesus and Jesus is Messiah who died for my sins.

 

[MT1926]

The flip side is how healthy is a relationship when someone else always decides for you what is right.

I don’t know how healthy is your relationship with God? After all isn’t He the one who always decides for you what is right?

My guess would be your relationship with God only wavers when you are the one who decides for yourself what is right? Would you agree that is a true statement?

I would also like to point out that it seems you are insinuating the Catholic Church rules our lives. Something here that is a misconception. Personally, I think the way the Catholic Church addresses the Bible is far more freeing. In her wisdom she has given us teachings on faith an morals. If we take those teachings to heart then we are free to interpret the Bible any way we want, as long as we don’t contradict one of her teachings on faith and morals. I find it far more freeing to know where the line is than reading the Bible never really knowing if I stepped over that line or not?

Read up on all of the early heresies most of them are from someone taking a baby step over the line which led to a landslide.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

No, but it has to make you think when Jesus seems to have a like wise relationship with those who think differently than ourselves on some issues.

Could you expand on where you are going with this a little more please?

Because what it makes me think is we have an all loving God who loves us even when we are wrong.

It also, makes me think God deserves better than merely what I think on an issue. If God actually says this is what I desire am I being a good Christian by saying well this is what I’m willing to give?

I have a “like wise” relationship with all 5 of my children. Does that mean I no longer desire the oldest to say thank you or I love you as often as the youngest does? I love all 5 of my children differently based on what they need, but you know what, even though they don’t, I still desire all 5 of my children to love and respect me the same.

God Bless

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

I don’t mean to be unkind either but I thought if one subscribes to Catholicism he does not have to really worry about the right path because if he follows the Catechism he is guaranteed to be on the right path. Am I wrong about that?

For the most part you got it right.

As for guarantees, we have an assurance but no guarantees. Just like many do with the Bible, I speak to people all of the time who pick and choose what they want from the Catechism or twist it to say what they want to hear. What can I say, it’s human nature. I see this same problem happening whether you are Catholic or Protestant. To me this just reinforces all the more that Jesus had to leave someone in charge. Human nature is just way to corrupt to go it alone.

God Bless

Thank you for being so honest. I agree that whether one is Catholic or Protestant the same problems arise. And if I may say so, it appears that even with a stringent hierarchical system there are problems that are manifest as a result of having that kind of system. Priests, bishops, cardinals and even Popes have shown that they are human and aren’t always in tune with the Holy Spirit. I read often of Catholics advising other Catholics to seek out a different parish or priest if necessary. I think Catholics who relish pointing out the defiencies of Protestantism are often not being honest and are justifying themselves by trying to expose and put down the other. However, I do also believe that is true in many cases on behalf of Protestants as well. I do not agree with a lot of what I have read or heard about Catholics on Protestant sites. It has not been my experience in my church services to hear put downs of Catholics at all so that practice is foreign to me. I have no doubt that it happens though.

So in fairness, while looking over at the Protestant side one might see numerous independent groups seemingly running willy nilly with no leadership but that of one man… I see that, and often it drives me crazy. Many of the big mega churches seem to me to be nothing more than a circus. However, most of the established Protestant denominations have a structure of leadership that enables discernment and application of the leading of the Holy Spirit within the churches and if error comes from the top down they have the option of realigning with other synod or conferences. Also within these churches at the congregational level there are elder boards and overseers that discern the leading of the Holy Spirit in their situations.

I know that Catholics will look at what I have said and say “but our church has never erred and cannot err.” Well, one has only to look at history honestly as well as the present day happenings to have doubt about that.

Peace,

 

[Vonsalza]

They provide the basis of authority for the bishops of the Church.

Let’s not overlook that the power to bind and loose is granted to all the disciples just a few verses later in Matthew 18:18.

“Truly I tell you whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven”.

Jesus was speaking to all of them, here. Not just St. Peter.

 

[lanman87]

How is me asking how one can have certainty that their claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit isn’t just their gut being unkind? Is this not a legitimate question? Especially when the Holy Spirit isn’t guiding you the same as He is guiding someone else who also claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit?

If we look at Romans 14 we see Paul addressing differences in understanding among believers. There were different practices and understandings about what is proper to eat, what days are esteemed, when to eat and and when to fast and so forth. And while this doesn’t address every difference in opinions and understandings that have happened in all of Christian history it does give us guidelines on how to deal with differences.

Romans 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Romans 14:10-12 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,

“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess o God.”

12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Romans 14:17-18 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

The Kingdom of God is not not about hard and fast rules of conduct and opinions of men but is about righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

 

[Vonsalza]

That’s a nice thought, but it’s a little superficial.

Lesbians for Jesus feel righteous and peaceful about their ministry, but I bet you’d argue them as being wrong.

Such is the state of affairs when you argue the church is invisible rather than visibly apostolic.

 

[MT1926]

…even with a stringent hierarchical system there are problems…

I totally agree. However, may I ask what you believe is the root of this problem? From my point of view I see it being the same problem…an unwillingness to recognize that Jesus left us a visible authority here on earth. To me it all comes down to authority. The way I honestly see it is either I believe Jesus left us a Pope, whom He builds His Church upon, or we are just following the desires of men.

Just being honest here, Catholics are accused of following the traditions of men, the Pope, all them time. (not saying you said this). But think this through honestly are those accusers really doing anything differently? If they are the ones doing the interpreting then they are just following men as well. That’s why I am Catholic, either Jesus did what He said He would do or He left us to be our own guides. There is pretty much nothing I haven’t accomplished, on my own, why on earth would I believe anyone else can do it better than I can?

…aren’t always in tune with the Holy Spirit.

Yep totally agree. We have had some bad Popes

I think Catholics …are justifying themselves by trying to expose and put down the other.

If I come across as trying to expose I apologize, for me it is the intellectual side. I am just trying to understand. I love studying the deep deep stuff like Typology. I think that’s one reason I love being a Catholic, there is so much thought and study done in the Church through the years. I have yet to ask her a question that she could not answer. That’s why I ask so many questions, that is my litmus test, that is my basis for other religions. Ask the question, if I don’t get a good answer ask again or cross it off my list.

However, most of the established Protestant … they have the option of realigning with other synod or conferences.

I was following you until you got to the end. That’s where you lose me. just can’t see how you can have an option to pick and choose who you align yourself with or how something could change to make you want to realign yourself.

I know that Catholics will look at what I have said and say “but our church has never erred and cannot err.” Well, one has only to look at history honestly as well as the present day happenings to have doubt about that.

I hear this stated quite often but no one has ever pointed out where the Church has erred by changing what She taught. Sure I totally agree many, many people in the Church have majorly erred throughout history, but I don’t see how this proves the Church has erred in what She teaches about Christ. If you can point one out I would love to read about it.

How is your father today?

God Bless

 

[lanman87]

That’s a nice thought, but it’s a little superficial.

Lesbians for Jesus feel righteous and peaceful about their ministry, but I bet you’d argue them as being wrong.

Such is the state of affairs when you argue the church is invisible rather than visibly apostolic.

Well, Paul (and the Bible) had a lot to say about sexually immorality. He didn’t say anything about a liturgical calendar, holy days, feast days, when to fast, the order of worship and so forth.

We must be very careful not to call things sin or “wrong” or to say things are required that are not addressed by Christ and the Apostles.

 

[Wannano]

Great reply…I am going to the hospital now…his death could be the next breath or a week or to. Thanks for the prayers.

Interesting. …he is 96 and even in the hospital he has in two weeks left his testimony telling the nurses he is excited about going to see Jesus. This is in a medium sized town. The staff are in love with him and are telling me how they admire him. They sense his genuine gentle sincerity. I have always lived in his shadow. I have been so blessed to have such a father!
G

 

[Vonsalza]

I don’t think the visible church is hamstrung into being unable to make decisions on emerging issues that didn’t exist in the time of Christ and the apostles - and all Christian history until the reformation agrees with me.

Now I agree that if you’re an evangelical Christian, then yes. You’re stuck with what you decide is scripture. If scripture doesn’t directly address something like the trinity or nuclear weapons, then the decentralized nature of the invisible church will produce nothing but varied answers that claim divine inspiration with no real ability to decry any other’s as being wrong.

And yet another church will probably get started over it sigh

 

[lanman87]

I hear this stated quite often but no one has ever pointed out where the Church has erred by changing what She taught. Sure I totally agree many, many people in the Church have majorly erred throughout history, but I don’t see how this proves the Church has erred in what She teaches about Christ. If you can point one out I would love to read about it.

Part of the problem is circular thinking. “The church cannot err therefore everything the church teaches is correct.” By that definition the church could declare anything as truth and it is not truth because it is fact, but because the church declared it to be truth.

Part of my issue with the Roman Church and to a lesser extent the Orthodox church is that it took legends, cultural practices, and religious practices and traditions that developed within the first 400-600 years and declared them as “truth”.

The definition of apostolic teaching is that it was taught by Christ and that apostles. Not that it was practiced and believed by the early church. Those two things aren’t the same thing.

 

[Vonsalza]

My ears perked up-

What about Orthodox doctrine do you think is made up or defies apostolic teaching?

 

[lanman87]

then the decentralized nature of the invisible church will produce nothing but varied answers that claim divine inspiration with no real ability to decry any other’s as being wrong.

The only thing is we don’t claim divine inspiration. And we are suspicious of anyone who does.

But isn’t it funny how the Evangelical churches in America are the one’s who are standing up for traditional Christian views on homosexuality and abortion. The American denominations that have caved to the political correct moral teachings are rapidly shrinking and the denominations that have held firm to Biblical morality are growing. Even without a central authority the people of God stand behind the the teaching of God for the Glory of God.

 

[lanman87]

What about Orthodox doctrine do you think is made up or defies apostolic teaching?

I don’t know near as much about the Orthodox church but it appears to be Catholic without the pope and as much dogmatically defined doctrine.

 

[Vonsalza]

lanman87:

Even without a central authority the people of God stand behind the the teaching of God for the Glory of God.

Sure. On the most basic doctrines, most evangelicals join most Catholics and Orthodox in their protest of abortion and homosexual behavior.

I say “join” because these two churches were doing it centuries before evangelicals existed.

 

[Vonsalza]

At a glance, that’s pretty fair.

Orthodoxy is council and thus consensus driven, ergo their doctrinal “development” isn’t nearly as rapid as it is for their Catholic brethren.

 

[mcq72]

thought that issue was settled, wasn’t it?

Was there realy an issue that needed to be settled to begin with was my point.

Had nothing to do with spiritual efficacy, save one group telling another what is more right and lording it over, in the name of “unity”.