How do you view the relationship between the RC, EC, & EO?

[Zabdi_Premjit]

Curiosity.

1. The Catholic church and Orthodox Church are actually two parts of a single Church, and each is fully orthodox.
2. The Catholic church and Orthodox Church are actually two parts of a single Church, but one is heterodox.
3. The Catholic church and Orthodox Church are actually two parts of a single Church, but one is heretical.
4. The Catholic church and Orthodox Church are separate churches, but each is fully orthodox.
5. The Catholic church and Orthodox Church are separate churches, and one is heterodox.
6. The Catholic church and Orthodox Church are separate churches, and one is heretical.
7. The Catholic church and Orthodox Church are separate churches. The true Church consist of only one in its entirety, but also includes any individuals within the other who adhere to orthodox belief.
8. The Catholic church and Orthodox Church are separate churches, but the status of orthodox/heterodox/heretical differs for Latin and Eastern portions of the Catholic church.
9. The Catholic church and Orthodox Church are one Church, but the status of orthodox/heterodox/heretical differs for Latin and Eastern portion of the Catholic church.
10. The Latin church constitutes one church. The EC and EO constitute another church, despite the fact that they may not both have the same status regarding orthodox/heterodox/heretical.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Curiosity.

1. The Catholic church and Orthodox Church are actually two parts of a single Church, and each is fully orthodox.
2. The Catholic church and Orthodox Church are actually two parts of a single Church, but one is heterodox.
3. The Catholic church and Orthodox Church are actually two parts of a single Church, but one is heretical.
4. The Catholic church and Orthodox Church are separate churches, but each is fully orthodox.
5. The Catholic church and Orthodox Church are separate churches, and one is heterodox.
6. The Catholic church and Orthodox Church are separate churches, and one is heretical.
7. The Catholic church and Orthodox Church are separate churches. The true Church consist of only one in its entirety, but also includes any individuals within the other who adhere to orthodox belief.
8. The Catholic church and Orthodox Church are separate churches, but the status of orthodox/heterodox/heretical differs for Latin and Eastern portions of the Catholic church.
9. The Catholic church and Orthodox Church are one Church, but the status of orthodox/heterodox/heretical differs for Latin and Eastern portion of the Catholic church.
10. The Latin church constitutes one church. The EC and EO constitute another church, despite the fact that they may not both have the same status regarding orthodox/heterodox/heretical.

Oddly, for all these options, I still did not feel like I had a choice that represented my Catholic sensibilities.

 

[Wyatt]

1. The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are two separate churches. The Orthodox Church maintains valid Apostolic Succession and valid Sacraments, and is thus a valid Church. It is currently in schism with the See of Peter.

 

[Badaliyyah]

Oddly, for all these options, I still did not feel like I had a choice that represented my Catholic sensibilities.

That provides you with the challenge of trying to succinctly of trying to state what your sensibilities are.

I admit I am trying to do the same. I am sympathetic to 1, but…

…but my thoughts are not going to be any clearer before morning. I need to go to sleep.

Leila Saeeda!

 

[Zabdi_Premjit]

1. The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are two separate churches. The Orthodox Church maintains valid Apostolic Succession and valid Sacraments, and is thus a valid Church. It is currently in schism with the See of Peter.

Okay. You stated that it is separate. The only thing that prevents you from answering is whether the EO are orthodox, heterodox, or heretical.

Orthodox = “Right Belief”; They in no way deviate from the true teachings of the Church.
Heterodox = They in do deviate from the true teachings of the Church, but their teaching a not contrary to the Church’s teaching.
Heresy = They hold teachings contrary to the Church’s teachings.

There should be no problem answering that, unless you, or your church in general, are either not sure what you believe, or not sure what the Orthodox believe.

 

[Wyatt]

Okay. You stated that it is separate. The only thing that prevents you from answering is whether the EO are orthodox, heterodox, or heretical.

Orthodox = “Right Belief”; They in no way deviate from the true teachings of the Church.
Heterodox = They in do deviate from the true teachings of the Church, but their teaching a not contrary to the Church’s teaching.
Heresy = They hold teachings contrary to the Church’s teachings.

There should be no problem answering that, unless you, or your church in general, are either not sure what you believe, or not sure what the Orthodox believe.

Easy now…I wasn’t fishing for a fight. It’s likely me that is confused, not the Church. I’ve only been Catholic for a little over a year (used to be Protestant like yourself…although not Oneness Pentacostal, though I have cousins who are).

Thank you for clarifying the definitions of all of those above. According to your definitions, I would have to say two separate churches, Orthodox being heretical.

 

[Zabdi_Premjit]

Easy now…I wasn’t fishing for a fight. It’s likely me that is confused, not the Church. I’ve only been Catholic for a little over a year (used to be Protestant like yourself…although not Oneness Pentacostal, though I have cousins who are).

Thank you for clarifying the definitions of all of those above. According to your definitions, I would have to say two separate churches, Orthodox being heretical.

I’m sorry if I sounded combative. I didn’t intend to.

Oneness Pentecostal cousins, eh? 'Tis an odd bunch: those Oneness Pentecostals. They’re also rather staunch in their beliefs and are not afraid to tell you to your face that your wrong. I dread the day I finally tell my parents and family that about my religious conversion. I don’t think they’ll be too happy about my “apostasy”.

 

[Wyatt]

I’m sorry if I sounded combative. I didn’t intend to.

Oneness Pentecostal cousins, eh? 'Tis an odd bunch: those Oneness Pentecostals. They’re also rather staunch in their beliefs and are not afraid to tell you to your face that your wrong. I dread the day I finally tell my parents and family that about my religious conversion. I don’t think they’ll be too happy about my “apostasy”.

It’s quite alright. I talk on another message board that is quite a bit more hostile than this one, so sometimes it gets confusing going from that hostile environment to this relatively calm one.

Stay strong. When my Baptist aunt found out I was becoming Catholic, she was rather freaked out about it, but she said she still believed I was “saved” so I guess that is a good thing.

I’m a little doubtful of the original answer I gave now. I don’t think that’s how the Catholic Church views the Orthodox Church, as heretical, and obviously my answer is the Church’s answer since I follow the Church. The reason I doubt it is because the Orthodox are allowed to receive the Eucharist in our church, and Catholics aren’t generally in the business of communing heretics.

Perhaps someone else can clear this up.

 

[Zabdi_Premjit]

It’s quite alright. I talk on another message board that is quite a bit more hostile than this one, so sometimes it gets confusing going from that hostile environment to this relatively calm one.

Stay strong. When my Baptist aunt found out I was becoming Catholic, she was rather freaked out about it, but she said she still believed I was “saved” so I guess that is a good thing.

I’m a little doubtful of the original answer I gave now. I don’t think that’s how the Catholic Church views the Orthodox Church, as heretical, and obviously my answer is the Church’s answer since I follow the Church. The reason I doubt it is because the Orthodox are allowed to receive the Eucharist in our church, and Catholics aren’t generally in the business of communing heretics.

Perhaps someone else can clear this up.

Thank you for the encouragement!

From what I can tell, most Catholics seem to view Orthodox as heterodox. They see us as deviating in the sense that we haven’t developed dogmas further, but don’t consider our teachings contrary to the the teachings of their church. I don’t know if there has ever been an official declaration regarding the issue though. I think the Catholic church just points out that they are schismatic, but does delve deeper. I’m not sure though. However, I know as a fact that they don’t consider us heretical.

 

[Dauphin]

The only legitimate answer, in conformity with reality, is number 6. The fact that anyone would choose a different option is a sign of just how much confusion Satan has wrought - so much that people lose their capacity for reason.

 

[mardukm]

I voted #1. I would like to add, though, that polemicists on both sides often like to madly highlight percieved differences, instead of trying to work at understanding the objective reality of the similarities of our respective doctrines/dogmas.

HH Pope Shenoute stated in 1973 that the differences between the Coptic Orthodox and Catholic Churches were merely in language and doctrine, but not in Faith. Oriental Orthodox in general, and Coptic Orthodox in particular, understand that doctrine is merely man’s attempt to formalize the eternal Truths which comprise our Faith. What we need to do to achieve unity is try to understand each other’s Faith, instead of focusing on the doctrines. This is nothing more nor less than the teaching of Pope St. Cyril of Alexandria, who opposed the demands of some of the Council Fathers of Ephesus that he should express his faith only according to the Creeds. St. Cyril rightfully asserted that our Faith goes beyond Creeds and formulations.

Once we can get past the lens of our respective doctrinal and dogmatic Traditions, we will more easily discover that we all share the same Faith.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

The only legitimate answer, in conformity with reality, is number 6. The fact that anyone would choose a different option is a sign of just how much confusion Satan has wrought - so much that people lose their capacity for reason.

Or maybe Satan’s real work is to prevent common understanding.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Dauphin]

Or maybe Satan’s real work is to prevent common understanding.

Blessings,
Marduk

Which is a codeword for “ignoring doctrinal differences”. The fact that very few people here would acknowledge that the Eastern Orthodox are at least material heretics demonstrates just how faregone most Catholics are.

Apparently, it’s just dandy to reject Catholic dogma if it’s not part of your “tradition”.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Dauphin,

Which is a codeword for “ignoring doctrinal differences”. The fact that very few people here would acknowledge that the Eastern Orthodox are at least material heretics demonstrates just how faregone most Catholics are.

Apparently, it’s just dandy to reject Catholic dogma if it’s not part of your “tradition”.

And so what if we are “ignoring doctrinal differences.” Doctrines are merely man’s forumalations of divine Truths comprising our Faith. Let’s try to understand each others’ FAITH, which, once we get beyond the doctrinal language, we may find to actually be the same.

I think people will view EO as material heretics only if they don’t bother to try to understand what the EO are really trying to teach by their doctrines. I have the same view of EO who believe that Catholics are heretics - i.e., they are not trying to understand what the Catholic Church is trying to teach.

I’ll give you an example (among numerous): EO polemicists always like to lambast the Latin Catholic belief that God is simple because Latins don’t recognize the formal distinction between the essence and energies of God. But the early Fathers who make the distinction ONLY make that distinction in an attempt to reconcile the idea that God is totally “other” from his Creation, and the fact that God in fact permits us to share in His divinity. EO polemicists are simply looking at the difference in language/doctrine of essence/energies. They need to realize that the Latin Catholics DO believe that God is totally “other,” from His creation, but this is expressed by Latins in different terms (i.e., in discussions regarding the Beatific Vision). The belief that God is totally “other” from His creation is the FAITH that we share in common (East, West and Orient). It goes beyond our respective doctrinal formulations of God’s simplicity/essence/energies.

Likewise, Latin Catholic polemicists should get beyond the fact that Easterns use the language of “Essence/Energies.” The fact that they EQUATE the essence and energies TO GOD is their way of expressing the indivisibility/simplicity of God, DESPITE using the language of essence/energies. It’s just language and doctrinal formulation, but the Easterns actually possess the same basic FAITH as Latins do that God is simple.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Dauphin]

This is a perfect example of the diabolical disorientation.

When a person’s mind is functioning correctly, they recognize that the Eastern Orthodox reject certain dogmatically defined Catholic doctrines. The rejection of the doctrine is not just the rejection of words or a particular formula, but of the underlying idea:

Either the Blessed Virgin Mary was born without a real stain of original sin (which all the rest of us are born with), or she wasn’t.

Either the Pope is incapable of error when he speaks ex cathedra, or he isn’t.

It’s so simple, yet modernists insist on confusing it. If the Eastern Orthodox reject any article of Catholic doctrine as it is defined by the Church’s magisterium, that makes them heretics. The Eastern Orthodox aren’t entitled to their own truth and their own faith in virtue of their “tradition”.

 

[mardukm]

Either the Blessed Virgin Mary was born without a real stain of original sin (which all the rest of us are born with), or she wasn’t.

Orthodox in general will reject the dogma of the IC because they erroneously believe that it claims Mary did not die a bodily death (as their doctrinal forumation of original sin is different from the Latin Church’s), or that it deprives Mary of free will, or that her physical birth was radically different from other humans. There is a misunderstanding there. They are not rejecting the dogma, but their own misunderstanding of it.

Either the Pope is incapable of error when he speaks ex cathedra, or he isn’t.

EVERY EO I’ve had the privilege of speaking to, whether converted from Catholicism or born and bred have the misunderstanding that

1. when the Pope speaks ex cathedra, he speaks alone, without conference or agreement with the Church of history, the Church of the present, or his brother bishops.
2. the infallibility of the Pope is a charism totally unique and separate from the infallibility of the Church.
   They are not rejecting the dogma, but their own misunderstanding of it.

What else have you got?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Badaliyyah]

One Eucharist, One Faith, One Church.

salaam.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

The only legitimate answer, in conformity with reality, is number 6. The fact that anyone would choose a different option is a sign of just how much confusion Satan has wrought - so much that people lose their capacity for reason.

1. The Orthoox Catholic Church and the churches under the Vatican two seperate Churches, the latter joined to the former but seperated by heresy, those churches in the former dating from a schism within Orthodox Churches forming an overlap of various shads of gray, depending on whom you talk to.

 

[Dauphin]

Orthodox in general will reject the dogma of the IC because they erroneously believe that it claims Mary did not die a bodily death (as their doctrinal forumation of original sin is different from the Latin Church’s), or that it deprives Mary of free will, or that her physical birth was radically different from other humans. There is a misunderstanding there. They are not rejecting the dogma, but their own misunderstanding of it.

And what do we call someone who rejects a dogma? Their reasons are irrelevant.

EVERY EO I’ve had the privilege of speaking to, whether converted from Catholicism or born and bred have the misunderstanding that

1. when the Pope speaks ex cathedra, he speaks alone, without conference or agreement with the Church of history, the Church of the present, or his brother bishops.
2. the infallibility of the Pope is a charism totally unique and separate from the infallibility of the Church.
   They are not rejecting the dogma, but their own misunderstanding of it.

What else have you got?

Blessings,
Marduk

So this time they’re rejecting an understanding? I don’t think that makes sense.

Ask any Eastern Orthodox here. They resoundingly reject the dogma. It’s not part of what was believed “always, everywhere, and by all”.

 

[Aramis]

Oddly, for all these options, I still did not feel like I had a choice that represented my Catholic sensibilities.

Me either.

Both are separated parts of the same church, both are orthodox, and both are riddled with bits of heterodoxy and heteropraxis in the fringes. (for this purpose, the US counts as a fringe for the Romans.)

Futhermore human errors of pride and uncharitable ignorance (on both sides) result in continued separation.