How does a Catholic Divine Liturgy differ from an Eastern Orthodox one?

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MattofTexas

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Hi,
I realize this is probably a complex question, but, is the liturgy used in EC parishes the same as used in EO parishes? I know the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is often the standard liturgy in many of the Eastern Catholic Sui iuris’ and the Orthodox Churches. As such I was wondering if the Divine Liturgy is the Divine Liturgy no matter if it’s Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, or if the Divine Liturgy differs between the Churches.

On a side note, I’ve seen the Divine Liturgy be referred to as a “service” on both EC and EO websites, and I was curious if this is standard terminology for referring to the Divine Liturgy? If so, why is it that so many Roman Catholics freak out if the same term is applied to the Mass?
 
They are the same. The difference is that the Orthodox Churches mention their own heirarchal leaders (Patriarchs, Metropolitans (Major Archbishop), Bishops, Abbotts, etc) in the litanies of peace, supplication and other applicable prayers whereas the Eastern Catholics mention the Pope and respective hierarchs in the applicable litanies and prayers.
  1. Divine Liturgy in the Greek Orthodox Church Source: newbyz.org/3partliturgy.pdf
For our Archbishop (Name), our Bishop (Name), the honorable presbyters, the deacons in the service of Christ, and all the clergy and laity, let us pray to the Lord…Above all, remember, Lord, our Archbishop (or Metropolitan) _________ . Grant that he may serve Your holy churches in peace. Keep him safe, honorable, and healthy for many years, rightly teaching the word of Your truth.
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  1. Divine Liturgy in the Byzantine Catholic Church. (There are 23 Churches that compose the Church Universal, the Latin Church being the largest led by the Pope who governs all the churches). Source: esoptron.umd.edu/ugc/liturgy1.html
For our holy universal Supreme Pontiff N . . ., the Pope of Rome, for our most Reverend Archbishop and Metropolitan N . . . , for our God-loving Bishop N . . ., for the venerable priesthood, the diaconate in Christ, for all clergy and the people, let us pray to the Lord…Again we pray for His Holiness, our universal Pontiff N . . . Pope of Rome, and for our most reverend Archbishop and Metropolitan N . . . , for our God-loving Bishop N . . ., for those who serve and have served in this holy church, for our spiritual fathers, and for all our brethren in Christ…May the Lord God remember in His kingdom, Our Holy universal Supreme Pontiff N . . ., the Pope of Rome, our most reverend Archbishop and Metropolitan N . . ., and our God loving Bishop N . . ., and the entire priestly, diaconal, and monastic order, our civil authorities, and all our armed forces, the noble and ever memorable founders and benefactors of this holy Church, (our suffering brethren), and all you orthodox Christians, always, now and ever, and forever.
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Ideally, yes, the Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is identical to the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. In the real world, however, it doesn’t really work that way for a number of reasons.
  1. Eastern Catholics very often have their own translations of the DL that may differ from their Orthodox counterparts. For example, the Melkite Greek Catholics have their own translation in a very beautiful modern-English, while their Orthodox counterparts, the Antiochian Orthodox, have their translation(s) in a more archaic style of English.
  2. Eastern Catholics very often have their own “recensions” or “usages” of the DL. The most extreme example from the Byzantine tradition would be the current Ruthenian “revised” edition of the DL here in the U.S. It bears little to no resemblance to the Ruthenian Orthodox DL, despite the fact that prior to the “revisions” the two Churches used the same translation(s).
  3. Translations and usages vary from one Church to another - and often from one parish to another - within both the Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox traditions. You must understand that, unlike the Roman West, the East has not been too concerned with having identical editions or translations of the DL until very recently (and even now they aren’t nearly as concerned with that as is the West). The Ruthenians have their translation(s), the Ukrainians have theirs, the Russians have theirs, the Melkites have theirs, and the Romanians have theirs. Even among the Orthodox you will find differing translations between the Greeks, Serbians, Russians, Romanians, Ukrainians, etc. In essence the Liturgies are the same, but there will be minor differences in translation, action, and general usage.
  4. Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox will often share liturgical books with one another, adding to “confusion” of differing translations. There are a good number of books used in just one Byzantine Divine Liturgy. I’ve known Greek and Antiochian parishes that will often use the Melkite books for the varied part of the Liturgy, and I’ve known Ruthenian, Melkite, and Romanian parishes that will use Orthodox books for the same parts. It’s often left up to the pastor and cantors to determine which books they use for those parts as, in essence, they are identical.
Those are just a few things I can think of at 5:45 AM. Now, it gets even more complex if we involve the Oriental Catholic and Orthodox Churches that are not part of the Byzantine tradition. But that’s a whole different can of worms. 😛
 
HI,
No, Divine Liturgy of the Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, and Serbian Orthodox are not cohesive with the Catholic faith. The two biggest problems are the reasons why the two churches split. One is the Catholic church uses the Filioque a slightly different translation of the Lord’s Prayer the Orthodox refused to change the wording from the Original with out a council. Secondly is the Holy Communion should be all from on body. The Catholic church uses unleavened wafers from different sources mass produced. The Orthodox Church still continues to use 1 body to serve to people and the bread is leavened as the Doxology says. The service at a Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is not Orthodox at all but Catholic but finding one state side is tough.

Fr. Achilles
 
Phillip_Rolfes said:
Ideally, yes, the Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is identical to the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. In the real world, however, it doesn’t really work that way for a number of reasons.
  1. Eastern Catholics very often have their own translations of the DL that may differ from their Orthodox counterparts. For example, the Melkite Greek Catholics have their own translation in a very beautiful modern-English, while their Orthodox counterparts, the Antiochian Orthodox, have their translation(s) in a more archaic style of English.
  2. Eastern Catholics very often have their own “recensions” or “usages” of the DL. The most extreme example from the Byzantine tradition would be the current Ruthenian “revised” edition of the DL here in the U.S. It bears little to no resemblance to the Ruthenian Orthodox DL, despite the fact that prior to the “revisions” the two Churches used the same translation(s).
  3. Translations and usages vary from one Church to another - and often from one parish to another - within both the Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox traditions. You must understand that, unlike the Roman West, the East has not been too concerned with having identical editions or translations of the DL until very recently (and even now they aren’t nearly as concerned with that as is the West). The Ruthenians have their translation(s), the Ukrainians have theirs, the Russians have theirs, the Melkites have theirs, and the Romanians have theirs. Even among the Orthodox you will find differing translations between the Greeks, Serbians, Russians, Romanians, Ukrainians, etc. In essence the Liturgies are the same, but there will be minor differences in translation, action, and general usage.
  4. Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox will often share liturgical books with one another, adding to “confusion” of differing translations. There are a good number of books used in just one Byzantine Divine Liturgy. I’ve known Greek and Antiochian parishes that will often use the Melkite books for the varied part of the Liturgy, and I’ve known Ruthenian, Melkite, and Romanian parishes that will use Orthodox books for the same parts. It’s often left up to the pastor and cantors to determine which books they use for those parts as, in essence, they are identical.
Those are just a few things I can think of at 5:45 AM. Now, it gets even more complex if we involve the Oriental Catholic and Orthodox Churches that are not part of the Byzantine tradition. But that’s a whole different can of worms. 😛
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It is true that there are variations in translations, but the RDL of the BCC is still very similar in practice to the liturgy used in the ACROD.
 
Achilles said:
HI,
No, Divine Liturgy of the Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, and Serbian Orthodox are not cohesive with the Catholic faith. The two biggest problems are the reasons why the two churches split. One is the Catholic church uses the Filioque a slightly different translation of the Lord’s Prayer the Orthodox refused to change the wording from the Original with out a council. Secondly is the Holy Communion should be all from on body. The Catholic church uses unleavened wafers from different sources mass produced. The Orthodox Church still continues to use 1 body to serve to people and the bread is leavened as the Doxology says. The service at a Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is not Orthodox at all but Catholic but finding one state side is tough.
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The points brought up as distinctions between the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic practice are misinformed and simply incorrect.
 
Achilles said:
HI,
No, Divine Liturgy of the Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, and Serbian Orthodox are not cohesive with the Catholic faith. The two biggest problems are the reasons why the two churches split. One is the Catholic church uses the Filioque a slightly different translation of the Lord’s Prayer the Orthodox refused to change the wording from the Original with out a council. Secondly is the Holy Communion should be all from on body. The Catholic church uses unleavened wafers from different sources mass produced. The Orthodox Church still continues to use 1 body to serve to people and the bread is leavened as the Doxology says. The service at a Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is not Orthodox at all but Catholic but finding one state side is tough.

Fr. Achilles
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There is a lot of misinformation in this post. It seems to be contrasting the DL of St. John Chrysostom with the Roman Mass, which is not even the point of this thread.

Eastern Catholic Churches, at least of the Byzantine Rite, do not include the Filioque in the Creed. So far as I know, and I’ve been both Eastern Orthodox and Ruthenian Catholic, we use the same version of the Lord’s Prayer. We use one prosphora of leavened bread, just like the Orthodox.
 
MattofTexas said:
If so, why is it that so many Roman Catholics freak out if the same term is applied to the Mass?
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Service is the general term, however since Protestants don’t tend to have specific terms for their services I think many RC see it as being a Protestant thing. We Orthodox don’t really have this hang-up, and because we frequently have a number of different types of services, we use the term as a catch-all.
 
Phillip_Rolfes said:
  1. Eastern Catholics very often have their own “recensions” or “usages” of the DL. The most extreme example from the Byzantine tradition would be the current Ruthenian “revised” edition of the DL here in the U.S. It bears little to no resemblance to the Ruthenian Orthodox DL, despite the fact that prior to the “revisions” the two Churches used the same translation(s).
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First of all, I’m no fan of the Revised Divine Liturgy…

We absolutely did not use the same translation as ACROD prior to the promulgation of the RDL. A notable example is that ACROD uses the term “Birthgiver of God”, while we used to use “Mother of God”. (We now do not translate the term, but use “Theotokos”.)

Have you ever actually attended a RDL? Again, I’m not a fan, but your statement is ridiculously misleading. To say that it bears little or no resemblance to an ACROD Divine Liturgy is simply not true. A person who is unfamiliar with the problematic changes to the Divine Liturgy would probably not notice much of a difference.

Here is a link to the current ACROD translation: acrod.org/prayercorner/textsresources/divineliturgy

Hymn of the Incarnation:
O Only Begotten Son and Word of God, * Who being immortal, * willed for the sake of our salvation * to become incarnate of the holy Birth-giver of God, * and ever Virgin Mary * and without change became man. * And was crucified for us, O Christ our God. * Who by Your death did conquer death, * O You Who are One of the Holy Trinity * equally glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit, save us.
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Here we have the current translation of the Byzantine Catholic Church: metropolitancantorinstitute.org/servicebooks/DivineLiturgiesOrdinary.pdf

Hymn of the Incarnation

Ο only-begotten Son and Word of
God, who, being immortal, deigned
for our salvation to become
incarnate of the holy Theotokos and
Ever-Virgin Mary, and became man
without change; you were also
crucified, O Christ our God, and by
death have trampled Death, being
One of the Holy Trinity, glorified
with the Father and the Holy Spirit,
save us.
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*As a side note, this particular hymn is identical to the hymn before the RDL was promulgated, except for the change from “Mother of God” to “Theotokos”.

Compare for yourself. There are unfortunate differences in practice and translation, but they are one and the same liturgy.
 
Achilles said:
HI,
No, Divine Liturgy of the Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, and Serbian Orthodox are not cohesive with the Catholic faith. The two biggest problems are the reasons why the two churches split. One is the Catholic church uses the Filioque a slightly different translation of the Lord’s Prayer the Orthodox refused to change the wording from the Original with out a council. Secondly is the Holy Communion should be all from on body. The Catholic church uses unleavened wafers from different sources mass produced. The Orthodox Church still continues to use 1 body to serve to people and the bread is leavened as the Doxology says. The service at a Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is not Orthodox at all but Catholic but finding one state side is tough.

Fr. Achilles
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Fr. Achilles,

In the Eastern Catholic churches, we do not use the Filioque. My own parish uses prosphora baked at home by our priest. If these issues are the basis for your statement that the “service at a Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is not Orthodox at all but Catholic”, then it appears you are misinformed about Greek Catholic practice and liturgy.
 
dvdjs said:
It is true that there are variations in translations, but the RDL of the BCC is still very similar in practice to the liturgy used in the ACROD.
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This has been my experience as well. There are the occasional differences in wording (especially the prayers during the Great Entrance for “Christians of the true faith” (Ruthenian Catholic) vs. “Orthodox Christians” (ACROD)), but outside of that, there’s not really many noticeable things aside from occasional bits of word order and slight wording differences that already exist among the various Orthodox jurisdictions.
 
RyanBlack said:
There is a lot of misinformation in this post. It seems to be contrasting the DL of St. John Chrysostom with the Roman Mass, which is not even the point of this thread.

Eastern Catholic Churches, at least of the Byzantine Rite, do not include the Filioque in the Creed. So far as I know, and I’ve been both Eastern Orthodox and Ruthenian Catholic, we use the same version of the Lord’s Prayer. We use one prosphora of leavened bread, just like the Orthodox.
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The Lord’s prayer can vary in wording in Orthodox churches. This is the version used in ROCOR:

Our Father who art in THE HEAVENS, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our DEBTS as we forgive our DEBTORS.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the EVIL ONE. Amen

The doxology is also slightly different:

For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory. of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Now and ever and unto ages of ages.
 
andrewstx said:
The Lord’s prayer can vary in wording in Orthodox churches. This is the version used in ROCOR:

Our Father who art in THE HEAVENS, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our DEBTS as we forgive our DEBTORS.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the EVIL ONE. Amen

The doxology is also slightly different:

For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory. of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Now and ever and unto ages of ages.
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Sure. I took the meaning of the post to which I was responding to be referring differences in the basic form of the doxology, not slight variations such as “debts” vs. “trespasses.” In other words, Latin Catholics pray “For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, forever, and ever, Amen” (or some slight variation thereof), while Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics pray “For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, now and unto the ages of ages, Amen” (or some slight variation thereof). So just as is the case with the creed and the use of unleavened bread, with the Lord’s Prayer, Eastern Catholics use the same form as the Orthodox.
 
RyanBlack said:
Sure. I took the meaning of the post to which I was responding to be referring differences in the basic form of the doxology, not slight variations such as “debts” vs. “trespasses.” In other words, Latin Catholics pray “For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, forever, and ever, Amen” (or some slight variation thereof), while Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics pray “For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, now and unto the ages of ages, Amen” (or some slight variation thereof). So just as is the case with the creed and the use of unleavened bread, with the Lord’s Prayer, Eastern Catholics use the same form as the Orthodox.
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If I were to become Eastern Catholic since I am now Russian Orthodox would I be Ruthenian?

Practically it makes little difference since the nearest Ruthenian church is over 500 miles distant.
 
andrewstx said:
If I were to become Eastern Catholic since I am now Russian Orthodox would I be Ruthenian?

Practically it makes little difference since the nearest Ruthenian church is over 500 miles distant.
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I think you’d become Russian Catholic.
 
andrewstx said:
😦 even worse. I think there is only one perhaps two Russian Catholic churches in the entire US.
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One in NYC and one in California. But among Byzantine Catholics I’ve realized there’s a much looser sense of Byzantineness, by that I mean it’s very common for Melkites to be common attendees at the Russian parish and for Ruthenians to be at the Melkite parish, etc.
 
According to this there are 4 Russuan GC churches in the US:

St Andrew the First-Called Russian Greek-Catholic parish (El Segundo, CA)
Our Lady of Fatima Byzantine (Russian Greek-Catholic) parish (San Francisco)
Ss Cyril & Methodius Russian Greek-Catholic Community (Denver, CO)
St Michael the Archangel Russian Greek-Catholic parish (NYC)
 
andrewstx said:
😦 even worse. I think there is only one perhaps two Russian Catholic churches in the entire US.
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I lurk here sometimes and I saw this go unanswered so I want to respond.

Your church ascription is determined by your baptism. You don’t say if you were baptized Orthodox or before your conversion to Orthodoxy, so there’s no way to know which church you’d be automatically ascribed to.

You can petition to change the automatic ascription and if it is for the salvation of your soul there is little reason it would be denied. The Holy See also said in previous cases when there isn’t an Eastern Catholic equivalent available a convert from Orthodoxy can choose from any of the churches that are available.

Which of the Eastern churches was on the record would have little effect in faith life and would really only surface in ordination, which could be addressed then.

The issue is of little significance or importance in deciding where to go. Follow God and the rest will fall into place.
 
MattofTexas said:
Hi,
I realize this is probably a complex question, but, is the liturgy used in EC parishes the same as used in EO parishes? I know the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is often the standard liturgy in many of the Eastern Catholic Sui iuris’ and the Orthodox Churches. As such I was wondering if the Divine Liturgy is the Divine Liturgy no matter if it’s Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, or if the Divine Liturgy differs between the Churches.

On a side note, I’ve seen the Divine Liturgy be referred to as a “service” on both EC and EO websites, and I was curious if this is standard terminology for referring to the Divine Liturgy? If so, why is it that so many Roman Catholics freak out if the same term is applied to the Mass?
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Byzantine Rite Catholic and Eastern Orthodox services are the same. The only difference is which hierarch is commemorated. Greek and Antiochian Orthodox only commemorate their own Bishop. We do not commemorate our Patriarch. There are three Divine Liturgies in the Byzantine Rite, The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom which is used most of the time, the Divine Liturgy of St Basil the Great that is used on Jan. 1, St. Basil’s feast day and during Great Lent, Holy Week and the Presanctified Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory Pope of Rome, which is really Vespers with Communion using a Lamb (host) consecrated on Sunday. The Presanctified Liturgy is used on Wednesday and Friday during Great Lent, as in the Byzantine tradition the Liturgy with a consecration is only served on Saturday and Sunday during Great Lent. The major difference between the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and the Liturgy of St. Basil is the Anaphora (Canon) is different. At least, in the Orthodox Church we do not usually serve a daily Divine Liturgy. Instead, we serve Vespers and Matins on most days.

Fr. John W. Morris
 
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