How does a Catholic increase the chance of getting into Heaven?

[guanophore]

Can you show me in Scripture where it talks about “gracious works?” needed for salvation?

A “gracious” work is a work done in, of, and through grace. It is one of the works that God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

When scripture has the word “should”, we believe it means what it says. Unlike your use of the word “should” above, which is “optional” (recommended, but not necessary).

What is necessary is that we work out our salvation with fear and trembling, because God is at work in us to will and to do His good pleasure. In grace, we die to ourselves, so that it is no longer we who live, but He who lives in us. God intends that the life we live, we live to Him. This is our spiritual worship, and doing works in grace (graciously).

I certainly do concede that, according to the Scriptures, those who "*have been saved* by grace through faith, a gift of God...**not as a result of works**" (Eph. 2:8-9) are now "*created in Christ Jesus FOR* good works," that they "*should* walk in them" (Eph. 2:10).  But I have yet to find where any man is ever saved (or, to Catholics its, "*being saved*") by ANY works at all, "*gracious*" or otherwise.

I agree. We are saved by grace. That saving grace manifests itself in us through faith, and through works of righteousness. However, it is neither the faith nor the work that saves
but Grace.

 

[moondweller]

paul c:

So, moon…if the love Paul speaks of is only God’s love, not ours, why is it that in 1 Cor 13, Paul refers to “love” multiple times as being his (Paul’s) own love?

1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

This is written to those who ARE saved, my good man. It’s in the context of believers operating gifts of the Spirit.

This is what I mean that Catholics, who have no concept of saved in this lifetime, interpret everything in Scripture in reference to conduct as just another condition to be met in hopes to be saved at a future event (at the “particular judgment”).

You keep saying this. It’s interesting. Let’s be more specific, yes? There is no concept of 100% absolute assurance of eternal life in heaven while one is still alive on earth in Catholicism.

Thank you!!!

That’s the only thing you can say, md. We certainly have a “concept of saved”.

You do not. Through your sacerdotalism and “process” of sacramentalism you hope you’re “being saved,” and hope that in the future you “will be saved.” But you have absolutely no concept of “saved,” as a past, completed divine gift to all who have believed. Those who have truly believed know they’'re saved.

 

[brb2]

All that Christ accomplished on the cross is applied to the believer, in full, at the time of personal belief in Him (not baptism).

]

Md … is this your answer ? Have you undergone Baptism, subsequent to your Faith Alone conversion ?

 

[moondweller]

Tomster:

And, it must stated, that an individuals ultimate salvation or damnation does not occur until the split second AFTER one takes their last breath. And, yes, a person’s works will be taken into consideration at that moment.

It’s called the particular judgment.

Thank you!!! Yes, this is “salvation” according to Catholicism; ultimately, salvation by works. For this reason Catholicism has no concept of “saved” in this lifetime.

 

[moondweller]

Md … is this your answer ? Have you undergone Baptism, subsequent to your Faith Alone conversion ?

I was baptized as a religious unbeliever and again as a believer. Neither baptisms saved me.

 

[moondweller]

A “gracious” work is a work done in, of, and through grace. It is one of the works that God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Those “good works” are prepared for those who are “created in Christ Jesus.” Those who are now “created in Christ Jesus” were (past tense) “saved by grace through faith…a GIFT of God, not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:8-10).

I agree. We are saved by grace. That saving grace manifests itself in us through faith, and through works of righteousness. However, it is neither the faith nor the work that saves but Grace.

No, guanophore, “grace” doesn’t save; GOD saves “by grace through faith” in Jesus Christ - according to the Scriptures.

 

[nuntym]

Wow, there are lots to respond to

Anyways…

Solid response!

Catholic definition:
Penance is a sacrament of the New Law instituted by Christ in which forgiveness of sins committed after baptism is granted through the priest’s absolution to those who with true sorrow confess their sins and promise to satisfy for the same.

newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm

Biblical definition:
"repentance" or as a couple of translations use “penance” = “metavnoia” a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done

Are these the same? Do you see any significant differences? Do these differences change the simple way the Bible speaks repentance in relation to the Catholic definition?
Did the apostles hire a priest or have a priest administer “penance” as a sacrament? Did the apostles speak of a priest or a Pope? Is there more than one apostolic teaching? If two things are in opposition to each other, how can you know which is true?

uch: Tanner, you could have avoided embarrassing yourself by reading the links we post in our responses, like this from my response. If you just read the beginning:

I. WHAT IS THIS SACRAMENT CALLED?

1423 It is called the sacrament of conversion because it makes sacramentally present Jesus’ call to conversion, the first step in returning to the Father5 from whom one has strayed by sin.

It is called the sacrament of Penance, since it consecrates the Christian sinner’s personal and ecclesial steps of conversion, penance, and satisfaction.

1424 It is called the sacrament of confession, since the disclosure or confession of sins to a priest is an essential element of this sacrament. In a profound sense it is also a “confession” - acknowledgment and praise - of the holiness of God and of his mercy toward sinful man.

It is called the sacrament of forgiveness, since by the priest’s sacramental absolution God grants the penitent "pardon and peace."6

It is called the sacrament of Reconciliation, because it imparts to the sinner the love of God who reconciles: "Be reconciled to God."7 He who lives by God’s merciful love is ready to respond to the Lord’s call: "Go; first be reconciled to your brother."8

Are you saying that anytime anyone (or at least any Catholic) says conversion, penance, confession, conversion, forgiveness, reconciliation he/she means always the Sacrament of Reconciliation/Conversion/Penance/Confession/Conversion/Forgiveness?

But anyways read Thing’s post to clarify this more. Thanks Thing

 

[SteveGC]

All that Christ accomplished on the cross is applied to the believer, in full, at the time of personal belief in Him

md, please describe for us this “time of personal belief”…the time at which one is instantaneously destined for heaven.

I mean, how do you explain this to the unregenerate when they ask you what level of belief is necessary? What precisely IS “heart-felt” belief in terms of defining the transitional moment where one moves from unsaved to saved?

Is it just a “you’ll know it when it happens” sort of thing? Is that how you describe it to someone…“you’ll know because the Spirit of God will affirm it to you”…?

Certainly you would agree that there are varying levels of belief, and not all of them warrant the authenticity of “being saved”, right?

Can someone possess merely the emotional fear of hell in them, and submit to a fear-based, self-willed level of belief in Christ, confess Him and invite Him into their heart, and be born again (saved)? On the flip-side, can it be an emotional desire for eternity in a blissful heaven, and a subsequent sinners prayer? Or must it be based on a genuine, heart-felt love of Christ? How much belief is necessary to be born again in your theology, and be 100% assured of eternal life in heaven?

Forgive all the questions related to this…but I wanted to be sure you understood what I’m asking…and I sincerely presumed that a “once saved always saved” advocate would be very capable of thoroughly explaining the truest essence of the “once saved” part.

Thanks.

 

[guanophore]

John the Baptist wasn’t an Apostle, nor was he commissioned to preach the gospel of Christ which is based on His sacrificial death and subsequent resurrection.

John’s heralding of the Kingdom is not to be separated from Christ. As the forerunner, John is part and parcel of the coming of the good news.

He was commissioned to preach, and to prepare the way of the Lord.

He was an Apostle in the way the term is applies as “one who is sent”. He was Hebrew, though, and Apostle is a Gk. word.

He knew nothing of these things.

This is simply a false statement. John was a prophet, and preached about what was revealed to Him by God.

John 1:28-30
28 This took place in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

You are suggesting that John did not know what he was saying!

I’ll ask again for you to show me where men lined up for miles to personally confess their sins to they Apostles that they might absolve them.

Confessions were made publicly, in the assembly, for centuries. Private confession was not developed until later.

The sins absolved in the book of Acts were so primarily in baptism.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that people lined up to be baptized by John for the remission of sins, and confessed their sins.

Even under the Law forgiveness of sins was by the shedding of blood, not confessing.Heb 9:22 And according to the Law, {one may} almost {say,} all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."

Both things are true. The supplicant made confession, and blood was shed.

Num 5:6-8
of Israel, When a man or woman commits any of the sins that men commit by breaking faith with the LORD, and that person is guilty, 7 he shall confess his sin which he has committed; and he shall make full restitution for his wrong, adding a fifth to it, and giving it to him to whom he did the wrong.

Lev 4:24-26
25 Then the priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and pour out the rest of its blood at the base of the altar of burnt offering. 26 And all its fat he shall burn on the altar, like the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings; so the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin, and he shall be forgiven.

Now compare this with the Apostolic message concerning the  forgiveness of sins in Acts 10:43; 13:38; Acts 26:18; Col. 1:14).The Apostles never taught confession as the means for the divine act of forgiving sins.

No, and Catholics never claimed that they did. Sins are forgiven by grace, through faith in the atoning blood of Christ, shed on the cross. he is our sacrificial lamb. Grace is the means. Confession is the manner proscribed by God in which we access His grace.

Divine forgiveness was directly connected *to faith* in the One whose blood was shed:Acts 10:43 "*Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name **everyone who believes*** in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

Yes. This is the faith in which we approach confession.

As I pointed out in a previous post, 1 Jn. 1:9 is not addressed to believers but to those who were leaning toward Gnosticism. A true believer is one who has acknowledged (confessed) his sinful state and having believed in Christ, received the forgiveness of sins.

Well, we read it differently. Catholics believe that this whole letter is addressed to believers. We also do not find any category in scripture of a “true believer” (as opposed to a “false”?)

ALL men are born spiritually dead,

This statement emanates from the heresies of the Reformation. It is not supported by Scripture, and not consistent with the Apostolic Teaching.

On the contrary, scripture says that humans are made in the image and likeness of God. He has breathed into us the Breath of Life (spirituality) and it is that part of us that is restless until it rests in Him. It is this part of the human that seeks after Him to find Him, though we know Him not.

So yes, guanophore, the wages of sin IS death (which occurred for ALL men in Adam). “But,” says Paul: “the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” This is the very thing Christ Himself said in Jn. 3:14-18; 5:24.

This is Catholic Teaching. However, the nature of sin does not change. Sin still separates people from God.

 There's no participation on your part.

Such a statement contradicts the Apostolic Teaching:

Acts 2:40-42
40 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “**Save yourselves **from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

The Apostles were clear that each person has the responsibility to add themselves to the work of Christ on the cross. God desires that all be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. It is for man to choose if he will accept or reject God’s purpose for himself.

Deut 30:18-19
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life,

 He accomplished it on the cross through the shedding of HIS blood, when our sins were, at that time, imputed to Him.Again you misunderstand the Scriptures.

I know it seems to you like I misinterpret them, since I reject your newfangled 500 year old gospel in favor of what the Apostles believed and taught. I can understand how you see it that way.

Yes, Jesus accomplished our salvation on the cross. However, some reject His purpose for themselves, and refuse to accept His grace.
Some accept it, then fall away. Some choose life, then change their minds, and go back to death.

 

[nuntym]

Well; who can we trust 100% of the time without fail? Who is the true interpreter of Scripture? They are one in the same.

Let me think for a moment about you story; if the machine was the gospel, which is not that complicated, and the manual was the Bible with the instruction of the gospel and all the other things like practical godly living, then it would make sense to have creator of the machine to assist the individual in understanding the instruction manual and the machine.

Blessings!

You missed the point.

Tanner, what is your assurance that the “the resident Truth Teacher” is the one you hear and the one who guides you when you read the Holy Bible? The problem is, every Protestant claims to have the “resident Truth Teacher” guiding them when they are reading and interpreting the Holy Bible. And yet, each and every one of them understands a different Gospel, because there are THOUSANDS, if not MILLIONS of Protestant sects! This means that either

1. The resident Truth Teacher is a liar, or
2. Each and every one, except possibly a few (and who are those exactly? You? MD?), of the Protestants is a liar, or
3. Each and every one of the Protestants misunderstood the Truth Teacher.

And no one can merely use the the Holy Bible to judge who is wrong in interpretation, because it is EXACTLY the interpretation of the Holy Bible that is in dispute!

And mis-using that expensive machine (the Gospel, our own eternal happiness) with a faulty understanding the manual (the Holy Bible) is catastrophic.

Do you understand my point?

 

[guanophore]

A Catholic, Protestant, or a non-believer can insure heaven for him/herself by simply believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and being saved - Acts 16:31. The moment one does that he is eternally secure by the sealing of the Holy Spirit - Ephesians 1:13. The Lord Jesus Christ did it all on the cross. Salvation is of God; your/my works do not enter into the equation. The god [small ‘g’] of this world will tell you that all of the above is too simple, you must work for your salvation, etc. He is lying to you! I pray that everyone who reads these words has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and is now a joint heir with Him and a child of God eternally.

This is a very important distinction. The Apostles taught that we are to work OUT our salvation. That means that salvation has already been placed within us at baptism,and that all our “work” is to be by grace, through faith. When our works are of,by, and for Him, we work out, not “for”. Any works that are not done by grace through faith are “dead” works, or works of the flesh, and have no eternal benefit. They are the kind that get burned away, either in this world, or the next.

 

[SteveGC]

Moon, not that paul c would disagree with me on my post, but this was my post you were responding to, not his. Anyway…

This is written to those who ARE saved, my good man. It’s in the context of believers operating gifts of the Spirit.

Yes, I know you think the audience is already destined for heaven, moon. My point is…how is it that St Paul is exhorting them to conduct themselves in love, when people already assured of eternal life in heaven should absolutely need NO exhortation whatsoever? Paul’s language in 1 Corinthians is admonishment to believers to possess and express Love, lest they “gain nothing”…no eternal life in heaven. I know you’ll disagree that this is exhortation or admonishment…and I’d like to hear your explanation of what you presume the language to be expressing.

…

This is what I mean that Catholics, who have no concept of saved in this lifetime, interpret everything in Scripture in reference to conduct as just another condition to be met in hopes to be saved at a future event (at the “particular judgment”).**Thank you!!!**You do not. Through your sacerdotalism and “process” of sacramentalism you hope you’re “being saved,” and hope that in the future you “will be saved.” But you have absolutely no concept of “saved,” as a past, completed divine gift to all who have believed. Those who have truly believed know they’'re saved.

So, you’re looking all this time for a Catholic to admit to you that the Church does not teach that we can absolutely, 100%, without-a-doubt know for certain while we are still living that we will possess eternal life in heaven??? Shucks…you’re welcome. Happy to be the first to admit it.

But, before you go gloating all over the place…you should know that this fact IN NO WAY supports your theory that the Catholic faith is a “hope so” religion, wherein we merely strive to punch tickets of good works and hope it’s enough to get us into heaven. I don’t know how many times the good Catholic folks on these threads have to tell you before it sinks in. Our faith in Christ is preeminent. Christ IN US is absolutely prerequisite. Without this, nothing salvific happens. What to you is a religion of “hope my works are enough” is actually one of “faith and obedience” which grants us a moral assurance of our ultimate salvation. This moral assurance differs from 100% absolute assurance in a subtle way…while it is not a “hope so” concept, it acknowledges that God does not teach us that we are heaven-bound the moment we profess Him…but we are assured of heaven if we are faithfully obedient to His will, and repentant when we are not.

Therefore, devout Catholics are actually capable of confidently declaring they are heaven-bound while still living on earth…if they presently are sufficiently obedient and/or repentant. If they know they have grave unconfessed sin in their heart, they cannot claim this…but subsequent to contrition and absolution, yes…they are quite capable of saying this to you. So why don’t they? Probably because it lacks humility. Probably because there’s no example of anyone in Christianity going around telling everyone else that they themselves are undoubtedly bound for heaven. That’s a neo-fundamentalist concept…this strange desire and proclivity to advertise to the world that one is going to heaven when they die. You might think it has evangelical qualities…but I know of no one drawn to Christianity based on an experience they had with someone who claimed their eternal destiny to them. So, it’s not that Catholics don’t know “saved” in the here and now…it’s that we’re not so pompous as to shout it from the rooftop as you are.

 

[SteveGC]

This is a very important distinction. The Apostles taught that we are to work OUT our salvation. That means that salvation has already been placed within us at baptism,and that all our “work” is to be by grace, through faith. When our works are of,by, and for Him, we work out, not “for”. Any works that are not done by grace through faith are “dead” works, or works of the flesh, and have no eternal benefit. They are the kind that get burned away, either in this world, or the next.

Absolutely beautiful distinction and explanation, guan. Kudos.

 

[nuntym]

Is it wise to pull a single verse and apply it to the whole of Scripture on the topic? If that were the case, then we would have many many contradictions and the Bible would then be untrustworthy and thus the author untrustworthy…agree?

Agree. And as you will see, I think it is you who will be found guilty of that charge, not me.

Do we throw this out? Colossians 2:13-15
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, **having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, **which was hostile to us; and **He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
** You see based on this passage; my sins were forgiven before I was born because I am a child of God and I have dealt with my sin issue before God; and now that I know I have been forgiven, my heart desires to please my Father, so when I do sin, I apologize and ask for forgiveness; knowing they are already forgiven. Since I have respect and gratitude I am happy to humble myself before my Father and request what I already know I have in Jesus

You have quoted these lines out of context. You should have included the preceding verse:

[12] …and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
[13] And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
[14] having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
Colossians 2:12-14 (RSV)

According to St. Paul, upon baptism the “old self” in us, the one who revels and lives in sin, is killed along with Christ in Jesus’ crucifixion:

[1] What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
[2] By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
[3] Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
[4] We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
[5] For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
[6] **We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.
[7] For he who has died is freed from sin.
Romans 6:1-7 (RSV)

Therefore St. Paul was talking about the forgiveness of sins during baptism, which according to St. Paul was when the old self was killed (“When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh”) and the past sins nailed to the Cross of Christ, so that the new self is resurrected in a new birth along with the resurrection of Jesus Christ, free from sin.

[1] Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicode’mus, a ruler of the Jews.
[2] This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him.”
[3] Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
[4] Nicode’mus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
[5] Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:1-6 (RSV)

And this, Tanner, is Catholic teaching about the Sacrament of Baptism.

1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua), and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: “Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word.”
Catechism of the Catholic Church

continued…

 

[nuntym]

1 John 2:1-2 -
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;.and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; 2 and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Again, you post out of context:

[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10] If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

[1]My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
[2] and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 1:9-2:2 (RSV)

Read the whole thing for yourself and see if it was me or you who make things out of context.

However, I commend you in being honest.

I hope you were posting those out of ignorance or you really were trying to fit the Word of God to what you are trying to say, because if the latter is your intent, I cannot commend you; that would be dishonesty.

Propitiation: The act of atoning for sin or wrongdoing…where was this accomplished? At calvary? Just as Colossians 2 above verifies.

Again you post out of context. Put Colossians 2 in context with Colossians 1…and I think this will shock you:

[24]Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church…
Colossians 1:24 (RSV)

***THERE IS SOMETHING LACKING IN CHRIST’S AFFLICTIONS!!! ***

And what is that something? Actually, everyday life shows what is lacking.

When you steal, if you are forgiven, is the stolen property returned automatically?

When you have sex outside marriage and you get either (1) an STD, (2) illegitimate children, (3) a broken marriage, or (4) any or all of the above, if you are forgiven, are those problems solved?

In other words, when you are forgiven for your sins, are all of the consequences of those sins removed?

In other words, the expiation for sin by Jesus Christ’s suffering and death on the Way of the Cross removes much but not all of the damage brought by sin on the world. And according to St. Paul, we can “complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions” by rejoicing in our suffering…by penance.

“The worst kind of suffering is wasted suffering.”

Read more here

Psalm 32:1 A Psalm of David. A Maskil. How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered! - Amen to that! That is a happy person indeed.

2 Corinthians 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Amen indeed.

continued…

 

[nuntym]

I could add another 15 or you versus stating the same thing; this is why it is imperative not to pull one verse and give it the application you think it is; you must compare Scripture with Scripture and let it verify itself; and it will. If their appears to be a contradiction, then one is not understanding what God has said.

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Many people will pull this one verse out and apply their own understanding because they did not put it in light of the passage, the chapter, the audience and the whole of Scripture. Because of this; things like Ephesians 2:8-9 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

It looks like a direct contradiction between James and Paul, but a little diligence and digging will reveal they are actually complementing each other. But I’ll let you have the joy and pleasure of discovering it for yourself. In a previous post I gave a couple of hints to help make the wonderful discovery.

Oh don’t worry, I, and the Catholic Church since around 2000 yrs ago, have found how to complement St. Paul’s teachings and St. James…and it is in the Holy Bible too:

[10] But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God which is with me.
1 Corinthians 15:10

Good works is cooperation with grace. And it is this cooperation (see what St. Paul says about the grace given to him was “not in vain”?) that has merit in God’s eyes.

[14]Jesus said, "For it will be as when a man going on a journey called his servants and entrusted to them his property;
[15] to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.
[16] He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them; and he made five talents more.
[17] So also, he who had the two talents made two talents more.
[18] But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master’s money.
[19] Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
[20] And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.' [21] His master said to him, Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’
[22] And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.' [23] His master said to him, Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’
[24] He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not winnow; [25] so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.' [26] But his master answered him, You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sowed, and gather where I have not winnowed?
[27] Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
[28] So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has the ten talents.
[29] For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
[30] And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’
Matthew 25:14-30 (RSV)

See what happens to those who do not use the grace given to them?

And yet how can you boast of something when it was not you but by the power of someone else that you are able to do something? It is as if you boast you can fly on your own because you pilot an airplane.

continued

 

[nuntym]

Keep in mind that my illustration is of an earthly parental relationship; so you are somewhat correct that for the child the forgiveness would mean little; but to a godly parent, then the Lord would be pleased with the parent for demonstrating love and discipline as He commands regardless of the end result of the child.

Also, the child that you described in your reply; would this be a child of God? Nope! No child of God will live a total life of disobedience; this would only prove the child was not a child of God, but rather the devil.

You are beating around the bush. I was asking if THAT happened to YOUR child, what are YOU going to do about it? Can you yourself do something if he refuses all your help? THAT is the Father’s dilemma in the Prodigal Son. THAT is God’s dilemma with a resolute Christian sinner. And THAT is going to be YOUR dilemma when it happens to your son. And no, unfortunately, whatever your kid does, he is STILL your son.

And THAT is what adoption is all about. Even if your child was wayward, if you adopted him/her, he/she is still legally your child. You cannot just disown him/her and say “He/She is the son/daughter of the Devil!” And that is also why there is such a thing as the Sacrament of Baptism, and there is the Sacrament of Reconciliation: the effects of the Sacrament of Baptism, that of adoption into God’s family, cannot be rescinded.

And you know what, how can your version of the Gospel be of any comfort to anyone?. Are you telling me if I sin hard enough, God is going to disown me while I am still here on Earth?!? :bigyikes: How is THAT a "Gospel of Assured Salvation?

Nope, keep your Gospel to yourself; that is not the Father Jesus showed to us in the Parable of the Prodigal Son, and that is not the God that I have known through the Catholic Church :dts:

I do not disagree that the forgiveness will not take place until the person deals with their sin issue as I stated in the previous post. Where we disagree is how and when this forgiveness actually and really occurs. I turn to the bible for this answer and verify it against the Scripture itself. Many people do not approach it this way and chose their own way. This is the reason why Jesus said in Matthew 7:13-14; that many devout religious people go through the wide gate and are on the broad road that leads to destruction; both paths are marked heaven, but concerning the narrow gate Jesus said that “few find it”; and the one’s that do must stay on a very narrow path.

And I think your verification is a bit faulty, as I have demonstrated.

Amen to that!

Amen indeed

Lord willing; you’ll be back soon and we can continue our dialogue.

Thank you, the work I think was quite fruitful

 

[brb2]

I was baptized as a religious unbeliever and again as a believer. Neither baptisms saved me.

Perhaps neither was Trinitarian …if so, come to the Church for a valid Baptism.

If both were Trinitarian, but your first was a TEST of God, and you really didn’t believe and desire to be reborn — then it probably wasn’t efficacious. Seems like this was your conclusion – since later in life you developed some measure of faith, and desired to be washed of sin.

However, for you to now conclude that this second Baptism was invalid and not efficacious [provided it was Trinitarian] … is probably erroneous. Did you expect to glow in the dark, or have a halo over head immediately afterwards ? The fact you didn’t promptly receive your heavenly garments & harp … doesn’t mean grace wasn’t conveyed to you. Unless, of course you barred Christ from touching your soul … telling Christ you only desired your outside clean, and not our inner heart/soul.

Remember, first Confession and Baptism is only the beginning of long journey in life. Paul needed 3 years in desert to get his mind/heart in order, and then spend the rest of his life in service to Christ & final martyrdom… before he perfected / realized the full Gospel message.

Come down to earth Moondweller, start living a life of Christian service, learn to suffer for your Lord and fellowman, and Christ will reveal the ‘gracious works’’ Pauline message to you thru his Church. Why waste your life trying to destroy God’s Church [as had Paul] … when you should be praying to receive your Epiphany re: the true Church of the Apostles.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Since infusion is not used in Scripture and you claim “Catholics have thousands of scriptures to support INFUSION.” then provide 3 passages that support infusion of saving grace; otherwise don’t bring you foolish statements my way. Thanks and God bless you a bunch.

You are preaching a deficient scripture Tanner. The more you talk in here the LESS you say and the MORE you add to the height of “just another” man made Tower of Babel.

The concept of infused grace is portrayed in many verses that allude to the Human Soul as a vessel or container. It’s a simple theological concept (gratia infusia) that rightly portrays how God changes and endows the inner-man with His nature. A person filled with grace is no longer an empty bladder of hot air. A man full of grace can not preach worldly human doctrines out of ignorance any more so than a cracked pot of clay would exhibit its defect as an example of self righteousness while it serves the nature of clay rather than asking the Potter to fix it. Tanner you need to get a grip and come to terms with how foolish your preaching sounds to Catholics. The apostles would cover their ears at what you say in here.

The reason why you object to infused grace is because your teachers have taught you that it is at odds with their own soteriology and neo-Chritian theories about justification.

Catholic soteriology emphasizes **the divinization of **man by the infusion of God’s grace, or supernatural life, especially through the sacraments. In Catholic doctrine, as articulated by the Council of Trent, justification and sanctification are distinct but intimately bound together in the process of salvation. In classical Protestantism they are separated, sometimes to the point where the two have little to do with each other:

Justification to the Protestant mind becomes a matter of Pharisaical sort of legal standing with God while sanctification is the subsequent inner work of the Holy Spirit. While Catholicism recognizes the primacy of faith, it also emphasizes the need for good works done by grace in the “working out” of salvation. Classical Protestantism stressed the doctrine of sola fide (“faith alone”), which denied that good works, no matter their source, had anything to do with justification.

The Protestant simply has no way to conceive that the rivers of life giving waters proceed upstream from Source Christus nor accept that grace always proceeds from Him and in that procession of grace WORK MUST be performed in and of itself or through the instrumentality of the cooperating human soul as a natural law of grace. It’s simply spiritual gravity Tanner. Transmission is how good works are done just as water flows down to seek its own level, fill the deep recesses of the soul and drown the old man (baptism) and lift him up in the arc of the Church to deliver him to the promised land.

But Tanner is more inclined to dam up the stream from doing downstream works and like an Egyptian he would “through some secret art” convert the water to blood then like the Pharisee splash his cup on the outside just so you could say “I am clean because I am covered in Christ’s Blood”. Wheres the alert and loyal Catholic would come to the water out of parched thirst, put his hands together and DRINK from that stream of life giving water to nourish his soul and be ready to do the work of The Lord (coincidentally just as God chose “a few good men” to defeat the Midianites [Judges 7]).

As a Protestant you must admit that you are corrupt by sin and can do no good thing without grace - not even “just believe”. You are a robot to your fallen human nature and must rely on a pre-ordained destiny that is independent of your personal choices. How gloomy - unless one imagines he is one of the lucky few. Yet in an inexplicable contradiction to your fallen nature you would presume to have somehow escaped your totally depraved and carnal intellect to come up with the wisdom to preach to Catholics. But the only way you can logically do this is through the gate of hubris - either by assuming that Grace speaks through you or else to presume against your own theology that you somehow became “infallable” at the moment you first believed. Can you please explain why anyone of rational mind should listen to a person who should admit that he is fallable and totally depraved of wisdom? What makes “Tanner” so special that he is better than any other random “cracked pot” out there?

Catholics unlike Protestants teach NOT their own personal theology but the SAME handed down faith of the apostles from the SAME deposit of faith. All a Protestant can legitimately accuse a Catholic of is teaching a new elaboration of that same apostolic faith. And this would be a fair charge. But the Catholic will point out here that The Church must be infallable since Jesus promised the protection of the Holy Spirit “who would lead us to all truth”. Therefore we Catholics say that we teach nothing new - only a deeper and more matured theological truth; things like the Trinity (which was taught long before the reformers came) and the concept of theosis (an ancient Catholic teaching which is an inner transformation work of grace). We Catholics teach from that same original apostolic faith as a maturing spiritual revelation of The Holy Spirit and NOT of our own minds. The reformers were dishonest or self delusional. They only CLAIMED they were restoring to the old faith but used it as a pretext for REMAKING Christianity into a thing is NEVER WAS. Luther knew exactly what he was doing - he wanted an “Easier Christianity”. But Salvation can NOT be had by trying to escape suffering. There is NO inheritance UNLESS we SUFFER. Paul knew this and its in YOUR OWN signature line! (READ Romans 8:17) . The Reformers have NO scriptural basis for sola-scriptura nor for sola-fide. Not one of you Protestants has yet to make a single case for these doctrines that reconciles ALL scriptural verses with this new doctrine. Only Catholicism accounts for ALL scriptural verses.

BTW here are some scripture references for infused grace.

[continued]

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

[continued from above]

Scripture verses supporting infused grace:
*You are the fairest of the sons of men; grace is poured upon your lips; therefore God has blessed you for ever" (Psalm 45:2).

“For the palace will be forsaken . . . until the Spirit is poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness becomes a fruitful field, and the fruitful field is deemed a forest” (Isaiah 32:14-15).

“And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will **pour out **my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; yea, and on my menservants and my maidservants in those days I will pour out my Spirit; and they shall prophesy” (Acts 2:17-18).

“And Stephen, **full of grace **and power, did great wonders and signs among the people” (Acts 6:8).

“And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken; and they were all **filled with the Holy Spirit **and spoke the word of God with boldness” (Acts 4:31).

“And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been **poured out **even on the Gentiles” (Acts 10:45).

“When he came and saw the grace of God, he was glad; and he exhorted them all to remain faithful to the Lord with steadfast purpose; for he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith” (Acts 11:23-24).

“And hope does not disappoint us, because **God’s love has been poured into our hearts **through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us” (Romans 5:5).

“And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery; but be filled with the Spirit” (Eph. 5:18).

“He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he** poured out **upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life” (Titus 3:5-7)

Luke 1:28 28 And coming in, he said to her, “Hail full of Grace! The Lord is with you.”
*

James