How does a Catholic increase the chance of getting into Heaven?

[Tanner9188]

Hi Eclipse,
The only thing that you need for salvation is belief and acceptance of Jesus Christ as your Savior. It is not through our own works that we are saved, but only through Jesus Christ’s perfect sacrifice. If we had any control over our salvation as far as “being good” or confessing our sins, then Jesus would not have had to die on the cross. Jesus bore all of our sins for us. As long as *you believe and accept you are saved *and will enter the Kingdom of God.

What does it mean to “believe and accept”? It sounds similar to an “easy believism gospel”; please elaborate a little. Thanks and God bless.

 

[holy_moly]

What are you doing here? Are you just young and in your early teens or twenties? I ask because you have no depth in your responses whatsoever. You say read the catechism; I say read the Bible. You have not refuted anything and need James and now Church Militant to assist you; so why are you here? Maybe to learn? Then it would be better to observe rather than to throw out whatever it is you throw out w/o any attempt of support. I’m sure you can lean much about the Roman way if you observe these two and i might also add Guanophore to the list as well.

Geez tanner, nice personal attack… sorry if I hit a nerve, but again you are blatantly incorrect- I was the 1st one to refute your assertion that it was not Biblical for men to forgive sins. In fact James & others affirmed what I said verse by verse. Sorry if you disagree w/ scripture. I just find it annoying when you respond w/ multiple subjects rather than sticking to the topic.
Peace,
Jim

 

[Detales]

James, That was good. Unfortunately, I make no such claims. It is each one’s responsibility. But I will show folks the sign, so they can have a laugh! Thanks!

Bindar Doondat, FZPC

 

[Tanner9188]

[from prior]This is just preaching the Protestant theory of how God works but it can’t be proven in anyway by experience. If you all could prove that you have even one single soul that ever made it to heaven using Protestant theology we Catholics might listen. As it is Catholics have thousands of saints with post-death miracles highly ratified and confirmed.

1 Tim 4:1-5
searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=1ti+4:1&t=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en

God is authentic He does not call a snow covered dung hill “righteous” by an action of the gavel.

Luke 18:9b-14 some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 "The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13 "But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, `God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14 “I tell you, Jesus slams the gavel-you are justified & you are not] this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

It fails the sniff test and God still sees it as corrupt. No, one must be REALLY transformed into a pure soul that is really pure - not just corruption covered over with a thin veneer.

** We agree and I have personally experienced and witnessed many regenerate lives as a result of Gods grace by faith in Christ.**

One is delivered from the penalty of sin by being literally transformed into a new sinless creature that is pure and holy as God is Holy - this IS the power of God - the ability to recreate us through Grace.

No one will be perfect in this life and the “elect” know this; but this does not take away from the fact that justification and sanctification are not two sides of the same coin.

Salvation is NOT quantized in processes like you suggest. There is a notion of a continuous process that is more analog like a growing plant undergoing seasons (dormation, growth, testing, feeding, pruning, bearing fruit [supernatural works] etc.). The only real event is the event of being born into Christ at baptism - this is like planting the seed of faith and letting it grow. If one dies before they are fully sanctified it is made up in purgatory.

Quantitative: Relating to the measurement of quantity. I don’t quite see a correlation. Salvation is freedom from sin and the just penalty of sin; which happens at the time a person is justified by grace through faith in Christ. I would be willing to say; if you were to show me one verse or maybe even 2 verses in Scripture concerning purgatory; I would say it would have to be really stretched to fit your theology. Just guessing. Ahh Purgatory; a real $$ maker in the 16th century. Now it is gambling and alcohol sales at festivals $$$$$.

But bear in mind not all the fruit trees in God’s grove attain their full potential and are not the same size. There is a concept of least and greatest in heaven. Be all you can be in service to God is the operative word.

How do you understand the least and the greatest? Matthew 16 & Mark 10:31

This is why Catholics will anathematize and condemn Protestant teaching until this scourge of error is eradicated from the face of the earth since at its core its pride and promotes anarchy and is a corrupt teaching that leads to destruction for many. Protestantism has born no good fruit for 500 years - unless we want to consider endless Christian mutations and divisions a fruit. But that sounds more like a cancer than a thing that contributes to advancing God’s Kingdom.

Bottom Line: Justification & Sanctification are two sides of the same coin and are inseparable. But this spiritual coin must be brought all the way to heaven to be spent and be crowned in glory.James

** Like a fleshly man commanding the Lord down to a tabernacle made by sinful flesh. Who sits at the right hand of God until His enemies are made His footstool? Oh yea Jesus; so what is in the box? What happens to that poor host when it becomes a left over? What happens when it accidentally falls on the floor and crumbles? What do you do with Jesus in these situations? What happens to the little crumbs that fall out of peoples mouths? Sounds ridiculous, but it must happen once in a while; how do they handle this and under what authority?**

 

[Tanner9188]

Geez tanner, nice personal attack… sorry if I hit a nerve, but again you are blatantly incorrect- I was the 1st one to refute your assertion that it was not Biblical for men to forgive sins. In fact James & others affirmed what I said verse by verse. Sorry if you disagree w/ scripture. I just find it annoying when you respond w/ multiple subjects rather than sticking to the topic.
Peace,
Jim

See post #119 for personal attacks.

As to the OP, I doubt if one can gain heaven w/out the grace of forgiveness, both giving & receiving! St. Augustine on forgiveness:

“There is nothing more consoling for mankind upon earth than the forgiveness of sins, for nothing causes us more misery than sin. Even in pagan times Socrates looked forward hopefully to the advent of a mediator who would teach mankind in what manner remission of sins was to be obtained. Christ earned the grace of forgiveness for us by His sacred Passion and death upon the cross (Council of Trent, 6, 7).

Christ is the Lamb of God, Who taketh away the sins of the world (John 1:29). In Him we have redemption through His blood, the remission of sins (Col. 1:14). Christ is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world (1 John 2:2). Christ conferred the power to forgive sins only upon the apostles and their successors. He Himself exercised this power in the case of Mary Magdalen, Zacheus, the good thief; when He healed the paralytic He said expressly: “That you may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, I say unto thee, Arise, take up thy bed, and go” (Matt. 9:6).

**Through the gospel; they are messengers; the saving is in the message and the message is Christ and Him crucified. **

This same power which He possessed Our Lord e gave to the holy apostles, when, after His resurrection He said to them: “Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven them, and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained” (John 20:23). He therefore who would have his sins forgiven must address himself to the bishop or to the priests whom Christ has appointed. In the Catholic Church alone is remission of sins, for she alone has received the Holy Ghost as a pledge of this grace”

No where in Scripture; casting lots to replace Iscariot is zero proof of succession. If you go with that theory; then you must apply it to all the apostles; for James and Judas had major leadership responsibilities and Paul had to rebuke Peter for leading people astray. Jesus said get behind thee Satan. What does Peter say about himself; a slave of Christ, a minister of the gospel. you do not understand the context of what you have written; which tells me you got it from some site, which is fine; we all do that, but at least give it Biblical context and don’t call the kettle black.

 

[holy_moly]

See post #119 for personal attacks. **Through the gospel; they are messengers; the saving is in the message and the message is Christ and Him crucified. **

119 wasn’t a personal attack tanner it was a defense of YOUR attack on the RCC

 

[w_stewart]

Hi w_stewart,

Excellent point. And to continue in your logic, why do we need to confess any of our sins to a priest? And why do we need a pope?

Short answer: Because Jesus wills it to be so.

 

[Tanner9188]

Tanner9188;5505141:

See post #119 for personal attacks. **Through the gospel; they are messengers; the saving is in the message and the message is Christ and Him crucified. **

119 wasn’t a personal attack tanner it was a defense of YOUR attack on the RCC

**It is true you were “blindly defending” the Roman Catholic Church; however you understate that there is no personal attack on myself or “church”. Either way it is okay; none of that bothers me. I just want truth. However on post #120; you never addressed and the one you did choose the address you have no Biblical context, which I explained and do not need to go over again.

That was not a personal attack on you; looking at your responses or lack of; it seemed as though this was a child responding; especially compared to Church Militant, CentralJames and guanaphore; my advise was to observe them for a while and learn from them. Nothing more.**

 

[CentralFLJames]

James, That was good.

BTW, I liberated your nasty quantum-cat from her digital litter box and your signature line. But she started littering odd parity bits all over my office and so I recycled her through the line printer to paper. But she seemed lonly so I ran her through the paper-shredder to put her in a new box of sorts. Now she’s cat-litter for my next-door neighbor’s Turkish Angora. They seem to be getting along wonderfully as the Angora seems to have developed a new fetish for sleeping in his litter box…

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http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/schrodingers-lolcat1.jpg

Peace, Love and Butterflies Bro,
James

 

[Peter_Dawson]

What does a catholic need to do to increase their possible of getting into heaven when the die ???

thnx

Seek to love God, and your neighbor – especially the neighbor who rips out your heart, throws it on the ground, jumps on it and spits on it – with all of your heart and soul and mind and strength.

As you do this, make use of His Church and His holy sacraments.

Anything less, and you will fail.

 

[CentralFLJames]

First; I did not SAY THE POPE IS SATAN as you asserted. Second; another big and Huge error is that the Holy Spirit leads an institutional Church; as opposed to the body of believers to which He, the Holy Spirit, leads to truth. But one can only know this truth by practical experience in the regenerative life of the true believer.

No, you didn’t directly say the pope is Satan but the script you are parroting is an old one and its headed that way - you just may not know it yet. You have mentioned and implied 2 or 3 times in this OP that the Catholic Church is being deceived by Satan. I know that pawns are trained to look straight ahead but do try to look around at the whole chess-board - since we Catholic follow the pope as Christ’s appointed you really have no other place to go with this line of reasoning but to progress against Christ’s Vicar (the Christian Nation’s earthly representative) .

Lutherans, Anglicans and others have already gone down this old path hundreds of years ago and been checked and suffered massive defects. Just look at the 32,000+ factions and the disorder and utter chaos Protestantism is in. It’s a house built on sand that comes pre-furnished with its own internal wrecking ball – appealing to personal choice and anarchy so it can remodel itself ever so often. When the combinations and variations are all played out the Protestant will come back full circle to Catholicism or be left all alone and just go naked commando mode as a lone ranger (with KJV strapped in to his holster).

Just look around the chess board Tanner and survey the situation. It seems that every few months or so we hear of yet a new old-school Protestant denomination falling like a domino to liberalize to accommodate every new fringe secular practice imaginable (abortion on demand, homosexual marriages, ordination of homosexuals/trans genders/lesbians, etc. etc.). Sorry my friend but the evidence proves that the Holy Spirit is not active in the Protestant movements at large – but He will no doubt succeed in getting some to leave that sinking ship and convert to Catholicism – sooner or later.

You are just wrong about a “body of believers” seperate from the physical and visible Church. This is a myth created by Protestants to lend some psychological comfort to offset the fact that they have no home, not traditions and no legacy to stand on. Put any two Protestants in a room from the same denomination (exclude husband and wife preacher teams) and give each a bible and they will be at each other’s throats over the legions of differing combinatorial beliefs. To have an invisible body of believers one would have to have a common faith - and if exists at all its hard to find within the same pew in any Protestant Church. For most bible-Christians and Protestants – it’s just a me-and-my-bible-and-my-Jesus sort of religion coming together on Sunday and sometimes Wed. for social networking. Sure, there are prayers and hymns given to God – and this is good — but how many of these are really pleasing to God while they holds hands and sing “My God is an Awesome God” even as the Muslims do the same singing “God is Great (and inwardly pray - ‘kill the Jews and Christians’)”? Never forget the story of Cain and Abel and never expect anyone to be able to offer a pleasing sacrifice to God while holding His Church, The Catholic Church, in contempt.

Besides all the above scripture utterly rejects the idea of an invisible church:
Read here: Scripture Catholic: The Church is Visible and One

You need to take an honest look back in history and see Protestantism for what it really is - its a socio-economic-freedom movement that at its core had almost nothing whatsoever to do with religion or Christ. Luther was genius enough to see that the common man was weary walking the perpetual treadmill with the old ‘Lords and Ladies and Fiefdom’ system and everyone was close to revolting and upsetting the entire western social system. He just didn’t want to get stuck in clerical clothing when the revolution was set in motion - no he led the revolution and ditched his clerical robes. And as the secular spirit of age was embraced by critical mass apostolic Christianity was replaced into a new secular-club where any amateur hobbyist theologian could pick their half dozen favorite scripture verses out of 35,000 and be his own new religious founder. And so Christendom fractured and fell like dominoes - Germany, England, France etc. This set in motion a ripple of Christian nations warring both internally and externally that we still suffer in subtle forms of political posturing and loose trading agreements (e.g. 80 years war, 30 years war, English Civil Wars, Franco-Spanish War, Anglo-Spanish War, French-Indian Wars [France/England/America], War of the Spanish Succession/Queen Ann’s War, Seven Years War, American Revolution, French Revolution,Vendee Wars, Napoleonic Wars, War of 1812, American Civil Wars, WW1, WW2 etc.). Without the stability of a single Christian Faith we can expect that as the secular glue used to replace The Church (e.g. money and trade) starts to delaminate - it will all flare up again as scarce natural resources limit the options to inflate currency out of debt and endlessly expand economies. There is s HUGE sociological-economic clash coming now that Christian unity is lost and moral relativism is the new rule of the day.

So my friend, I hate to sound like a gadfly here but the charade is about up. Protestantism is fracturing faster than the Western Empire is collapsing. The “give me liberty to do my own thing” mentality is spent and worn out. The secularists smell blood and are moving in for the kill to boot Christians out of the main-stream and marginalise us a extremists and superstitious nut-jobs.

[continued]

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

[from above]
At the bottom of it you need to understand that faith was NEVER taught in apostolic times nor in pre-Protestant times in a personal salvation context. It was always taught in the context of a covenantal relationship with God’s People: A chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation set apart and a people belonging to God. The Jewish converts knew this perfectly and saw Christianity as the pinnacle of the OT covenantal promises to God’s People (now a universal people).

Many modern Protestants are FINALLY starting to “get it” that there is no such valid concept as a self-serving or independent “flock of one” or “church of one” lone ranger sort of faith (ref. New Perspective on Paul).

Apart from the Church/flock one is bound to get devoured by the wolves. If the same Holy Spirit was at work in each individual guiding all individuals to truth then we would not have the HS guiding all these ostensibly Christian people to the utterly disgraceful shame of 40,000+ Protestant church denominations now would we? These are all running around calling themselves “true believers” in opposition to each other. How can that be the same Holy Spirit that was promised to the apostoles to lead them to all truth? The answer is it’s NOT. The Holy Spirit is only guaranteed to be infallable to the leadership in communion with each other through the Chair of Peter.

So your theory, while sounding “nice” and “reasonable” CLEARLY fails in practice. It also fails scripturally since the Holy Spirit was ONLY promised to bring all truth to the leaders (bishops) of the ONE VISIBLE Catholic Church. And we have already established that Peter’s chair is the authority that brings them all together as one voice. Can you find a single verse in the bible where Jesus promises individuals other than the church leadership that the Holy Spirit will bring them to all truth? No, you can’t…

James

 

[Tanner9188]

No, you didn’t directly say the pope is Satan but the script you are parroting is an old one and its headed that way - you just may not know it yet. You have mentioned and implied 2 or 3 times in this OP that the Catholic Church is being deceived by Satan. I know that pawns are trained to look straight ahead but look at the whole chess-board - since we Catholic follow the pope as Christ’s appointed you really have no other place to go with this line of reasoning but to progress against Christ’s Vicar (the Christian Nation’s earthly representative) .

I can say that the Pope is NOT Satan. I guess the more than half of Roman Catholics are of the Cafeteria variety don’t fully follow all of the Pope’s mandates or decrees; that is probably a very conservative number; many probably out of ignorance, not knowing all the precepts.

Just look around the chess board Tanner and survey the situation. It seems that every few months or so we hear of yet a new old-school Protestant denomination falling like a domino to liberalize to accommodate every new fringe secular practice imaginable (abortion on demand, homosexual marriages, ordination of homosexuals/trans genders/lesbians, etc. etc.). Sorry my friend but the evidence proves that the Holy Spirit is not active in the Protestant movements at large – but He will no doubt succeed in getting some to leave that sinking ship and convert to Catholicism – sooner or later.

We agree about the “easy believism & Health-Wealth” gospels springing up all over; generally non denominational. As far as the Holy Spirit , Jesus and god the Father; they work with individuals from every tongue and nation. The point being He is not limited by religion or denominations, which would include the Roman Catholic Church; to think so is to not understand God’s ways in the most basics of His nature, Character and attributes.

You are just wrong about a “body of believers” seperate from the physical and visible Church. This is a myth created by Protestants to lend some psychological comfort to offset the fact that they have no home, not traditions and no legacy to stand on. EDITED For most bible-Christians and Protestants – it’s just a me-and-my-bible-and-my-Jesus sort of religion coming together on Sunday and sometimes Wed. for social networking. Sure, there are prayers and hymns given to God – and this is good — but how many of these are really pleasing to God while they holds hands and sing “My God is an Awesome God” even as the Muslims do the same singing “God is Great (and inwardly pray - ‘kill the Jews and Christians’)”? Never forget the story of Cain and Abel and never expect anyone to be able to offer a pleasing sacrifice to God while holding His Church, The Catholic Church, in contempt.

** I NEVER SAID the “body of believers” is invisible; the spiritual body is certainly invisible to be revealed at His Second Coming, but the visible church is the local body and within that body are wheat and tares; which is impossible to distinguish. Re-sacrificing Christ over and over again; I can promise you is not pleasing to God; it is trampling the Son of God under foot IMO. God always looks at the heart; so those poor Protestants holding their hands to God and singing His praises may or may not be; depends o the hearts intent and if they are the “called” or not.**

EDITED
You need to take an honest look back in history and see Protestantism for what it really is - its a socio-economic-freedom movement that at its core had almost nothing whatsoever to do with religion or Christ. Luther was genius enough to see that the common man was weary walking the perpetual treadmill with the old ‘Lords and Ladies and Fiefdom’ system and everyone was close to revolting and upsetting the entire western social system. He just didn’t want to get stuck in clerical clothing when the revolution was set in motion - no he led the revolution and ditched his clerical robes. And as the secular spirit of age was embraced by critical mass apostolic Christianity was replaced into a new secular-club where any amateur hobbyist theologian could pick their half dozen favorite scripture verses out of 35,000 and be his own new religious founder. And so Christendom fractured and fell like dominoes - Germany, England, France etc. This set in motion a ripple of Christian nations warring both internally and externally that we still suffer in subtle forms of political posturing and loose trading agreements (e.g. 80 years war, 30 years war, English Civil Wars, Franco-Spanish War, Anglo-Spanish War, French-Indian Wars [France/England/America], War of the Spanish Succession/Queen Ann’s War, Seven Years War, American Revolution, French Revolution,Vendee Wars, Napoleonic Wars, War of 1812, American Civil Wars, WW1, WW2 etc.). Without the stability of a single Christian Faith we can expect that as the secular glue used to replace The Church (e.g. money and trade) starts to delaminate - it will all flare up again as scarce natural resources limit the options to inflate currency out of debt and endlessly expand economies. There is s HUGE sociological-economic clash coming now that Christian unity is lost and moral relativism is the new rule of the day.

You need to listen to yourself concerning history; then focus on the Word of God. You seem head-smart, but you are not very heart-smart from what I can tell from our dialogue. If you are here to defend the faith, which you are and you manifest ungodly character IMO; I can’t imagine how you really are around those closest to you; but I have a picture. You can take that one of two ways; as a personal attack, which it is not or practical advice, which is the intent. As I said, God reads the heart and I am at peace with that.

So my friend, I hate to sound like a gadfly here but the charade is about up. Protestantism is fracturing faster than the Western Empire is collapsing. The “give me liberty to do my own thing” mentality is spent and worn out. The secularists smell blood and are moving in for the kill to boot Christians out of the main-stream and marginalise us a extremists and superstitious nut-jobs.

Christians always do better under persecution and it purges the phonies.

James

 

[Detales]

James, I feel honored that you spend, like the atheist allegedly arguing against God, so much time on your thoughts about me. Wonderfully, I am not my, or anyone’s, thoughts about me. In this regard, it is a safer bet in trying to “get” to heaven that one eschews dogma and goes direct. Similarly to your very clever exercise with Schroedinger’s cat, may I remind you that when you have a dogma, you also may have a litter of poopies and their mess to clean up. Then you would litter-ally have a cat-aholic dilema you could have bypassed by some effort in the directon of self-inquiry and discover wherefrom your thoughts about yourself or anything come from. But, as I said, I can only encourage you to practice your faith utmostly, and argue for it unto exhaustion. You are your world you wander through.

Bindar Doondat, FZPC

 

[Tanner9188]

[from above]
At the bottom of it you need to understand that faith was NEVER taught in apostolic times nor in pre-Protestant times in a personal salvation context. It was always taught in the context of a covenantal relationship with God’s People: A chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation set apart and a people belonging to God. The Jewish converts knew this perfectly and saw Christianity as the pinnacle of the OT covenantal promises to God’s People (now a universal people).

Many modern Protestants are FINALLY starting to “get it” that there is no such valid concept as a self-serving or independent “flock of one” or “church of one” lone ranger sort of faith (ref. New Perspective on Paul).

Apart from the Church/flock one is bound to get devoured by the wolves. If the same Holy Spirit was at work in each individual guiding all individuals to truth then we would not have the HS guiding all these ostensibly Christian people to the utterly disgraceful shame of 40,000+ Protestant church denominations now would we? These are all running around calling themselves “true believers” in opposition to each other. How can that be the same Holy Spirit that was promised to the apostoles to lead them to all truth? The answer is it’s NOT. The Holy Spirit is only guaranteed to be infallable to the leadership in communion with each other through the Chair of Peter.

** The spirit only leads the “elect”, which are few compared to the many Matt 7:13-14. All those going here and there are probably not part of the “elect”.**

So your theory, while sounding “nice” and “reasonable” CLEARLY fails in practice. It also fails scripturally since the Holy Spirit was ONLY promised to bring all truth to the leaders (bishops) of the ONE VISIBLE Catholic Church. And we have already established that Peter’s chair is the authority that brings them all together as one voice. Can you find a single verse in the bible where Jesus promises individuals other than the church leadership that the Holy Spirit will bring them to all truth? No, you can’t…James

**
and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith

that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me

For in it {the} righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS {man} SHALL LIVE BY FAITH

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law

having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

for we walk by faith, not by sight

so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law;

I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous

The Bible speaks very little about faith; doesn’t it?

Peter never had a chair; he was just a might messenger; with a message that still goes out to all the world as the Holy Spirit convicts mens souls unto righteousness or condemnation and it is Christ who builds the church-established in Scripture. Peter would be appalled IMO, if he were able to see how his name was being used.**

 

[catholic1seeks]

**

Peter never had a chair; he was just a might messenger; with a message that still goes out to all the world as the Holy Spirit convicts mens souls unto righteousness or condemnation and it is Christ who builds the church-established in Scripture. Peter would be appalled IMO, if he were able to see how his name was being used.**

I have not been following this thread for a while, nor have I read all of the posts. But besides the biblical passages that speak of Peter’s primacy, the “chair” reminds me of St. Cyprian’s words:

A.D. 251 Cyprian of Carhage

“And he says to him again after the resurrection, ‘Feed my sheep.’ It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church’s) oneness.”

No doubt the others were all that Peter was, but a primacy is given to Peter, and it is (thus) made clear that there is but one flock which is to be fed by all the apostles in common accord. If a man does not hold fast to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?"

(The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition).

Also, as to Peter’s primacy and the role of Peter’s successors, see what the early Church Fathers had to say:

General/Various articles cin.org/users/jgallegos/papacy.htm

Primacy of the Apostolic See in Patristic Thought
cin.org/users/jgallegos/primacy.htm

Authority Claimed by the Bishop of Rome,The Pope
cin.org/users/jgallegos/pope.htm

 

[JustaServant]

[from above]
At the bottom of it you need to understand that faith was NEVER taught in apostolic times nor in pre-Protestant times in a personal salvation context. It was always taught in the context of a covenantal relationship with God’s People: A chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation set apart and a people belonging to God. The Jewish converts knew this perfectly and saw Christianity as the pinnacle of the OT covenantal promises to God’s People (now a universal people).

Many modern Protestants are FINALLY starting to “get it” that there is no such valid concept as a self-serving or independent “flock of one” or “church of one” lone ranger sort of faith (ref. New Perspective on Paul).

Apart from the Church/flock one is bound to get devoured by the wolves. If the same Holy Spirit was at work in each individual guiding all individuals to truth then we would not have the HS guiding all these ostensibly Christian people to the utterly disgraceful shame of 40,000+ Protestant church denominations now would we? These are all running around calling themselves “true believers” in opposition to each other. How can that be the same Holy Spirit that was promised to the apostoles to lead them to all truth? The answer is it’s NOT. The Holy Spirit is only guaranteed to be infallable to the leadership in communion with each other through the Chair of Peter.

So your theory, while sounding “nice” and “reasonable” CLEARLY fails in practice. It also fails scripturally since the Holy Spirit was ONLY promised to bring all truth to the leaders (bishops) of the ONE VISIBLE Catholic Church. And we have already established that Peter’s chair is the authority that brings them all together as one voice. Can you find a single verse in the bible where Jesus promises individuals other than the church leadership that the Holy Spirit will bring them to all truth? No, you can’t…

James

WONDERFUL essay James.

 

[Called_by_God]

Could I make a sugestion? I’m not a theologan or anything. I think the best way to sure of salvation is through devotion to Mary (mother of God). The fouth comandment is to honor your father and mother so Christ must obay her and as Christ is God that means God will grant her anything. Secondly she does want our salvation. Why? because he beloved son died for us. If she didn’t love use very much it would show that she had little love for her son’s death. so I think praying to Mary is a great way up our chance at Heaven.

Also remember that our hope of Heaven is bassed in Jesus not ourself. Which means our hope should be unshakable because Jesus never changes.

 

[davidv]

[snip}

**Re-sacrificing Christ over and over again; ****
{snip}
Pray tell where does this “re-sacrificing” happen? If you think it is in the Catholic Church, you are sorely mistaken. Please take more time to understand what the Church truely teaches about the Mass and Sacrament of Holy Eucharist.

 

[Tanner9188]

Pray tell where does this “re-sacrificing” happen? If you think it is in the Catholic Church, you are sorely mistaken. Please take more time to understand what the Church truely teaches about the Mass and Sacrament of Holy Eucharist.

**According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1366, “The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit.” The Catechism continues in paragraph 1367:

The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Holy Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” “And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory.”

I understand what it is; but no matter how it is spun; it is resacrificing. Just as veneration is a form of worship IMO and what the catechism states.**