How does a Catholic increase the chance of getting into Heaven?

[JustaServant]

Oh really?
What do you consider untrue about my assessment?

Lets stick to one topic at a time. The answers to the OP is based on Scripture:

SALVATION, FAITH AND WORKS
Faith Alone or Faith plus Works?
Jam 2:24 - a man is justified by works and not by faith alone
Jam 2:26 - faith without works is dead
Gal 5:6 - only thing that counts is faith working in love
1 Cor 13:2 - faith without love is nothing
Jn 14:15 - if you love me, keep my commandments
Mt 19:16-17 - if you wish to enter into life, keep commandments
1Tim 5:8 he who doesn’t provide for family worse than unbeliever.

Have You Been Saved?

Past Event (I have been saved)
Rom 8:24 - for in hope we were saved
Eph 2:5, 8 - by grace you have been saved through faith
2Tim 1;9 - He saved us, called us according to his grace
Tit 3:5 - He saved us through bath of rebirth, renewal by Holy Spirit

Present Process (I am being saved)
Phil 2;12 - work out your salvation with fear and trembling
1Pet 1:9 - as you attain the goal of your faith, salvation

Future Event (I will be saved)
Mt 10:22 - he who endures to the end will be saved
Mt 24:1 - he who perseveres to the end will be saved
Mk 8:35 - whoever loses his life for my sake will save it
Acts 15:11 - we shall be saved through the grace of Jesus
Rom 5:9-10 - since we are justified, we shall be saved
Rom 13:11 - salvation is nearer now than first believed
Cor 3:15 - he shall be saved, but only as through fire
1Cor 5:5 - deliver man to Satan so his spirit may be saved
Heb 9:28 - Jesus will appear second time, to bring salvation

Good Works
Mt 7:21 - not Lord, Lord but he who does the will of father
Mt 19:16-17 - to have life, keep my commandments
Jn 14:21 - he who keeps my commandments loves me
Rom 2:2-8 - eternal life by perseverance in good works
Gal 5:4-6 - nothing counts but faith working through love
Eph 2:8-10 - we are created in Christ Jesus for good works
Phil 2:12-13 - work out salvation with fear and trembling
Jam 2:14-24 - a man is justified by works & not faith alone

Judged According to Deeds
Rom 2:2-8 - eternal life by perseverance in good works
2Cor 5:10 - recompense accord to what did in body
2Cor 11:15 - their end will correspond to their deeds
1Pet 1:17 - God judges impartially according to one’s works
Rev 20:12-13 - dead judged according to their deeds
Col 3:24-25 - will receive due payment for whatever you do

Assurance of Salvation?
Mt 7:21 - not everyone saying “Lord, Lord” will inherit
Mt 24:13 - those who persevere to the end will be saved
Rom 11:22 - remain in his kindness or you will be cut off
Phil 2:12 - work out your salvation in fear and trembling
1Cor 9:27 - drive body for fear of being disqualified
1Cor 10:11-12 - those thinking they are secure may fall
Gal 5:4 - separated from Christ, you’ve fallen from grace
2Tim 2:11-13 - must hold out to the end to reign with Christ
Hb 6:4-6 - describes sharers in Holy Spirit who then fall away
Heb 10:26-27 - if sin after receiving truth, judgment remains

 

[JustaServant]

Tradition / Church Fathers
I. We are Saved by Faith and Works, and Not Faith Alone

“For he who keepeth these shall be glorified in the kingdom of God; but he who chooseth other things shall be destroyed with his works.” Epistle of Barnabas,(A.D. 70-90).

“Seeing, therefore, that we are the portion of the Holy One, let us do all those things which pertain to holiness, avoiding all evil-speaking, all abominable and impure embraces, together with all drunkenness, seeking after change, all abominable lusts, detestable adultery, and execrable pride. ‘For God,’ saith [the Scripture], ‘resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.’ Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words.” Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 30 (A.D. 98).

“For what reason was our father Abraham blessed? Was it not because he wrought righteousness and truth through faith?” Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 31 (A.D. 98).

“All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.” Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 32 (A.D. 98).

“Now I beseech thee, by the grace with which thou art clothed, to add [speed] to thy course, and that thou ever pray for all men that they may be saved, and that thou demand things which are befitting, with all assiduity both of the flesh and spirit. Be studious of unity, than which nothing is more precious. Bear with all men, even as our Lord beareth with thee. Show patience with all men in love, as [indeed] thou doest. Be steadfast in prayer. Ask for more understanding than that which thou [already] hast. Be watchful, as possessing a spirit which sleepeth not. Speak with every man according to the will of God. Bear the infirmities of all men as a perfect athlete; for where the labour is great, the gain is also great.” Ignatius of Antioch, To Polycarp, 1 (A.D. 110).

“Look ye to the bishop, that God also may look upon you. I will be instead of the souls of those who are subject to the bishop, and the presbyters, and the deacons; with them may I have a portion in the presence of God! Labour together with one another, act as athletes together, run together, suffer together, sleep together, rise together. As stewards of God, and of His household, and His servants, please Him and serve Him, that ye may receive from Him the wages promised. Let none of you be rebellious. Let your baptism be to you as armour, and faith as a spear, and love as a helmet, and patience as a panoply. Let your treasures be your good works, that ye may receive the gift of God, as is just. Let your spirit be long-suffering towards each other with meekness, even as God is toward you. As for me, I rejoice in you at all times.” Ignatius of Antioch, To Polycarp, 6 (A.D. 110).

“But He who raised Him up from the dead will raise up us also, if we do His will, and walk in His commandments, and love what He loved, keeping ourselves from all unrighteousness, covetousness, love of money, evil speaking, falsewitness; ‘not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing,’ or blow for blow, or cursing for cursing, but being mindful of what the Lord said in His teaching: ‘Judge not, that ye be not judged; forgive, and it shall be forgiven unto you; be merciful, that ye may obtain mercy; with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again; and once more, "Blessed are the poor, and those that are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of God.’” Polycarp, To the Philippians, 2 (A.D. 135).

 

[Janet1983]

Lets stick to one topic at a time. The answers to the OP is based on Scripture:

You told me I wouldn’t know the Catholic faith and I proved that the things I talked about were Catholic teaching… So I was right… whether that is biblical is a different problem…
My assessment was all according to Catholic teaching.

 

[JustaServant]

You told me I wouldn’t know the Catholic faith and I proved that the things I talked about were Catholic teaching… So I was right… whether that is biblical is a different problem…
My assessment was all according to Catholic teaching.

Well then pick your favorite and start a thread on it. This thread is about how a Catholc increases thier chance of getting to Heaven.
This is a heavily moderated board and moderators do not allow threads to be de-railed into other topics.

 

[Janet1983]

Leaving out the context?? Well I will give you a hand…

SALVATION, FAITH AND WORKS
Faith Alone or Faith plus Works?
Jam 2:24 - a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

Faith proves itself by works. When we are saved we will do good works as a result. God who gives us a new heart does instil this in us.
The context of James 2:24 talks about Abraham. At first glance this statement does seem to be contradicted by Paul in Romans 4:2, when he denied that Abraham was justified by works. The point is that Abraham was justified by faith in the sight of God as testified in Genesis 15:6, but he was justified by works in the sight of men (even in his own estimation) when he demonstrated the reality of his faith (Ge 22:18) in his obedience to God’s command to offer up Isaac.

Jam 2:26 - faith without works is dead

See above (same context)

Gal 5:6 - only thing that counts is faith working in love

In the context we see that Paul is talking about two ways of salvation: One of them is by works and one by faith… If we propose we can earn salvation by the works of the law, we thereby reject the free grace of Christ, and He is not saving us (v.4) We are both saved by grace and kept by grace. We cannot cancel the grace which gives salvation by failing to keep working for it, for works could never earn God’s grace in the first place. Because of our salvation we do works and our works show our faith to others… Circumcision as a work of the Law is condemned in other places…

1 Cor 13:2 - faith without love is nothing

Since when is love a work of the law??

I will continue once you have learned to read a passage in its context…

 

[PJM]

=gspringer I am sure glad I am not a Catholic, because from what I have been taught all you have to do to get into heaven is to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. You can not get to heaven by only works. Yes, it helps to pray and do good, but a sinner can accept Jesus on his death bed and go to heaven.

***So friend this is true because you say it’s true?

It is not what Jesus Taught, NOT what the Bible says.

And the fact that you beleive this truth will NOT get you a free pass into heaven.

Can we agree that Jesus can be described as “All and only GOOD Perfectly?”

So can we further agree that being “JUST” and being “FAIR” are “good things”?

Then Jesus MUST be, has to be both fair and just yes?

So how is Jesus in justice and fairness going to judge Mr. A and Miss B when “B” steals $100.00 from “B” and when “A” confronts “B” and demands the money back, "B"refuses to return it so “A” in anger kills “B” and runs out of the house into the street and is hit and killed by a passinf car.

Now both “A” and “B” have unrepented, unConfessed and therefore unforgiven sin on their souls.***

The sin of “B” is a minor sin

The sin of “A” is a Mortal sin that if unconfessed and unforgiven is Greviously wrong and can send “A” to hell.

Can Jesus who we agree by His very Nature HAS TO BE and MUST BE Just treat both "“A” and “B” identically? As God who has to be “just and fair” in order to be God, the answer is no!

But your position disagrees with what God has to be. No matter what sin, no matter how serious, no matter in unrepented, unconfessed God is “good” and therefore everybody goes to heaven Just because “they claim to believe in Christ?”

***Mt. 7: 21"Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’"

---

1 Jn.5:13 "I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. And this is the confidence which we have in him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have obtained the requests made of him. If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that."

***So what then does “mortal” mean? “Mortal” means unto death! Thus as I indicate above a “mortal sin” even ONE can send someone to hell for all eternity.

For something to be a “Mortal sin” it must be 1. A grave and very Serious Matter, such as premarital sex, or abortion as examples. 2. One must know that it is a “Grave and Serious” sin before committing it, and 3. One must freely desire to commit the sin anyway. Desire is the same as doing it.

Sins are to be both repented and Confessed in order to be forgiven.***

**Mt. 16: 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." **

***Jn. 20: 19 “On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” **

***Also see Lk. 8: 11-15; Jn. 4:8; Rom. 8:27; Heb. 10:016-18; and Mt. 11:25- 26 on the need for confession. ***

**2 Tim. 2: 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. **

***Your current belief in unbiblical and denial does not change what is going to happen. You have the bible therefore you have THEE truth available to you, and on that basis Jesus in fairness and justice will so judge you. You need not “be a Catholic” because Christ will judge all Christians with an idential fair and just way.

Please consider this a wake up call.

Love and prayers,***

 

[holy_moly]

Hello, my friend. Be sure to confess your sins often and in a heartfelt manner, love others as yourself, forgive those who hurt you, and follow the Commandments. To believe Jesus’ teachings is one thing, but to follow Him is another. We are called to do both. I hope this helps! God bless.

Buy indulgances Just kidding Go to Mass as often as possible & Reconciliation as often as necessary… the rest should take care of itself

 

[Biggie]

Biggie:

Yet Paul could not do as he wished. I should rest my salvation on works that I am unable to make sufficient or good?? Instead, why not rest on mercy and faith and then try my best in gratitude and love as the Evangelical teaches??

Here you are using “rest my salvation on works” and this is not the Catholic teaching. The core Catholic teaching is that one can reject one’s salvation as evidenced by sin. Sin exists by commission (doing evil) and by omission (failing to do the good one ought). The core problem is that we all sin, regardless of what we have professed with our mouths.

i.e. I get cut off in traffic by someone when I am on my way to church, I ride his bumper, get up next to him and flip him off. Then I go on to church where I sing a hymn of mercy and faith. Which person am I - the one contesting with the other guy in traffic or the guy kneeling in church? When I cool off and feel remorse, what should I now do about it? Do I presume God understands? Or do I perhaps seek his forgiveness? And if I multiply this a thousand times and leave off going to church, but I profess that I have been saved, isn’t there a disconnect there?

I would also consider that a profession of faith is an act. If I speak John 3:16, I have engaged in the act of speaking. Now true if I retain it as a concept and never say it aloud, then I have not acted on it, but then it assumes the nature of self speak, an unwanted thought I am unwilling to act on. So there is at least one act that saves on your side of the aisle. Now what if all your other acts say the exact opposite?

Please elaborate.

Deprived of an understanding of the value of an act, you are deprived of the full meaning of the value of suffering. You do not believe that one can offer one’s sufferings to God for the benefit of fellow sinners or in remission of sin since you believe there is nothing more you or I can do about salvation. As a Catholic, I believe that our sufferings can be joined to those of Jesus Christ through our deliberate intention. As such, God gives them a value they do not otherwise enjoy. For Our Lord died once for all, but he did not suffer all deaths, or the most horrible of deaths imaginable. He suffered terribly, but he did not endure every suffering. Through his people, by God’s grace, the sufferings of Our Lord are made complete. This is what we mean by the term Mystical Body of Christ, that the Church Militant (still on earth contesting evil) and the Church Triumphant (the saints in Heaven) with Jesus Christ at the head comprise his mystical body.

 

[holy_moly]

The most urgent and useful thing one might do to assure Heaven is to abandon immediately the notion that being Catholic has any more or less to do with it than does being Buddhist or Christadelphian or Jain or atheist or cargo cultist.

And Above all, follow the ages old dictum to Know Thyself “Gnothi Seauton” Religionism of any sort is laboring in an adjacent field to that of salvation, and takes energy from the actual work necessary, that of self inquiry.

I say all of this in full agreement with the statements attributed to Jesus that “I AM the Way, The Truth, and the Light” and that “I and the Father are One.”

How do those mentally pre-disposed from being able to do this (such as infants/children, the insane & the mentally feeble reach the salvation of “self inquiry”

 

[CentralFLJames]

How do those mentally pre-disposed from being able to do this (such as infants/children, the insane & the mentally feeble reach the salvation of “self inquiry”

Sounds like the man still has a few loose kinks in his neo-mysticism and still holds to some lingering old Calvinistic double-predestiny baggage to account for those poor souls just so unlucky to fall on the debit side of the balance-sheet to be fuel for hell to make the Justice-Mercy accounting all work out.



James

 

[CentralFLJames]

OK EVERYONE here is the best single all-in-one answer to this question:

Q: How does a Catholic increase the chance of getting into Heaven?

A: PRAY-PRAY-PRAY

The single thing everyone should be praying for daily (sunup, mid-day, sundown, bedtime) is to PRAY for the highest and best grace possible - The Grace of Final Perseverence.

Everything else such as apologetics, bible-reading, praying for healing, patience, and so on is worthless if one does not gain the The Grace of Final Perseverance. It is the pinnacle of all graces and brings with it all virtues that merit one salvation. The assumption here is that one has been baptised and one is following the Catholic disciplines (esp. participating in Sunday Mass). If one is praying one is not sinning and one is not being tempted. If one does not have a rigorous prayer life one is setting themselves up to fall back into sin and become luke-warm in their relationship to God. This is why Jesus said He will vomit these luke-warm out of his mouth. These are the lip-service Catholics and Protestants who dutifully go to mass or to Bible Study and worship etc. but do not know Jesus on a daily basis. Prayer is what keeps one’s love HOT and vibrant with Jesus.

One can knock so persistently with daily prayer for the grace of Final Repentance that one can lock their eternal destiny irrevocable to salvation through a habit of grace – just keep praying and avoiding sin.

This does not mean one will not be tested. No - God WILL test us - A LOT. No one gains heaven to receive their crown unless its a worthy crown. That would not be fair to the Angels and Saints nor to Satan. What one sows one reaps if he holds to his task. The key is persevering all the way to the end. The Grace of Final Repentance is the grace that assures of persevering to the very end.

Those with poor prayer lives are at serious risks of losing their crowns through a luke warm relationship. Doctrines like sola-fide and OSAS are noxious to the soul and give a false sense of eternal security. We want a little tension in a healthy Fear of The Lord to keep us on our toes praying daily. Pray for those who just “don’t get it” too since it is said that no one enters heaven unless he brings a friend along as well (parable of the talents).

Pax,
James

 

[Detales]

Especially for James:

“But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most?” ~Mark Twain

Your pyrotechnic verbiage has all the marks of a great intellect, the very thing Mark Twain said separates Man from the animals. I think he had a twist on it, though. Worth checking out.

Who said that salvation is an either/or thing? Will you get the same reward in Heaven as the Virgin Mother? Probably. The parabled workers in the field each got their same pay for their different hours at the end of the day. (I’m not sure about the ones who went into the wrong vinyard, though…) So why not the innocent? Or all these you named? Perhaps they are already there! I have seen few so joyful as some of the mentally impaired. Maybe they in fact have a head start on us. But overall, I don’t know, That is not my job, though I appreciate you ascribing such great knowledge to me. Thanks.

But I am not necessarily speaking of rewards after physical death, but the possible first death. And certainly it is clear from various posts on here that we each come with our own ability. In fact, I’m not even recommending for anyone in particular to follow that path, unless they want to. For some, there is a particular reward of fulfillment and understanding that comes from Self Knowledge. But it is not for everyone. For such as you, it might even be dangerous. In fact, I think it would destroy your world.

But that is the point. All the world as we live in it, save for but a few, is our projected belief. If you can see though that veil of your own projection, you would learn something astonishing about yourself. Or not. In either case the best thing for you and you ilk, perhaps, is to exercise your faith to the absolute utmost. You might be surprised at the results. Let me know.

In any case, bon chance!

 

[Timmy_Z]

Here you are using “rest my salvation on works” and this is not the Catholic teaching.

Not just from this discussion, I am coming to the conclusion that much of RC teaching is good in theory, but fails (or differs) in reality/practice. It claims what you say above, but before the protestants got into this thread a concerned Catholic was being told what to do to get into heaven (how I would define “rest on works”). I am tempted to ask we divide debates on the RCC into discussions of Catholic Teaching and Catholic Practice (the teaching is far more convincing/compelling).

The core problem is that we all sin, regardless of what we have professed with our mouths.

Yet the RC believes this sin removes the child of God (Christian) from God’s mercy and damns him?

I would also consider that a profession of faith is an act. If I speak John 3:16, I have engaged in the act of speaking. Now true if I retain it as a concept and never say it aloud, then I have not acted on it, but then it assumes the nature of self speak, an unwanted thought I am unwilling to act on. So there is at least one act that saves on your side of the aisle. Now what if all your other acts say the exact opposite?

The Calvinist does not believe there is an act on our side (salvation is forced regardless of desire/merit). crivoice.org/tulip.html

I however hate extreme Calvinism, and have haggled with calvinist pastors regarding whether or not the “act of profession” is a saving work (the calvinist maintains that it is, thereby contradicting sola fide, proving aminianism/weslyanism wrong).

I dont have the exact quote in front of me, but Jacob Arminius said something like that if a man walks by a poor man and offers him bread and the poor man opens his hand to receive it, no one would say that the poor man’s act fed himself or that he did a work.

And if I multiply this a thousand times and leave off going to church, but I profess that I have been saved, isn’t there a disconnect there?

Either your profession of faith is false or your sactification is slow.

You do not believe that one can offer one’s sufferings to God for the benefit of fellow sinners or in remission of sin since you believe there is nothing more you or I can do about salvation

Very true.

As a Catholic, I believe that our sufferings can be joined to those of Jesus Christ through our deliberate intention. As such, God gives them a value they do not otherwise enjoy. For Our Lord died once for all, but he did not suffer all deaths, or the most horrible of deaths imaginable. He suffered terribly, but he did not endure every suffering. Through his people, by God’s grace, the sufferings of Our Lord are made complete. This is what we mean by the term Mystical Body of Christ, that the Church Militant (still on earth contesting evil) and the Church Triumphant (the saints in Heaven) with Jesus Christ at the head comprise his mystical body.

Not to be insulting, but this is a very foreign and distasteful concept to me (at its face it seems to denigrate Christ and Calvary). Is this official RC teaching?

Thanks,
Tim

 

[CentralFLJames]

The most urgent and useful thing one might do to assure Heaven is to abandon immediately the notion that being Catholic has any more or less to do with it than does being Buddhist or Christadelphian or Jain or atheist or cargo cultist. Goodness and salvation only have a nodding acquaintance with religion of any sort,

When you die, the two questions asked are “Did you Love?” and “What did you learn?” Not whether you were baptized, went to Mass, spun your prayer wheel, wore your holy undergarments, or were a cleric of any description. Those two questions constitute the entirety of at least the “particular” Judgment as you yourself review your life.

Love God, and love they neighbor as thyself. And Above all, follow the ages old dictum to Know Thyself “Gnothi Seauton” Religionism of any sort is laboring in an adjacent field to that of salvation, and takes energy from the actual work necessary, that of self inquiry.

I say all of this in full agreement with the statements attributed to Jesus that “I AM the Way, The Truth, and the Light” and that “I and the Father are One.”

My original comment on this seems to have gone “missing”.

You are expressing a lot of personal mysticism here. Why would anyone care to believe that we should follow you to abandon our Catholic faith and come climb Detales’s Mountain to hear Detale’s Truth? What pedigree do you have? What evidence do you have that a single thing of your personal religion has one shred of truth or enlightenment?

Clearly what you say is not axiomatically obvious as objective truth or else I would not have to ask you to back up your personal opinions with something that would give creedance to what you have to say. You have given nothing but raw naked opinion. Is there even a rational argument to back up what you say? I keep hearing your say you have a personal problem with Catholicism but isn’t that old rusty axe you keep grinding getting old with you yet? Give us something substantive to consider other than just your personal opinion since no one has seen you perform any signs and wonders to suggest your personal philosophy stands head and shoulder above any other person’s. Offer us rational exegesis or anything except raw unsubstantiated opinion unless you enjoy wasting your breath.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Especially for James:

“But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most?” ~Mark Twain

Your pyrotechnic verbiage has all the marks of a great intellect, the very thing Mark Twain said separates Man from the animals. I think he had a twist on it, though. Worth checking out.

Twain had similar sentiments about people embracing personal-opinion as Religion.

*Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world–and never will.

• MARK TWAIN – “Consistency” speech and essay *

Who said that salvation is an either/or thing? Will you get the same reward in Heaven as the Virgin Mother? Probably. The parabled workers in the field each got their same pay for their different hours at the end of the day. (I’m not sure about the ones who went into the wrong vinyard, though…) So why not the innocent? Or all these you named? Perhaps they are already there! I have seen few so joyful as some of the mentally impaired. Maybe they in fact have a head start on us. But overall, I don’t know, That is not my job, though I appreciate you ascribing such great knowledge to me. Thanks.

The semantics of language did and Jesus as the root “Word of Truth” did. One is saved or not saved. There is no concept of having one foot in heaven and one in hell. One’s human nature can not be divided, bisected and seperated into two parts – one part saved and the other part lost. It’s a whole quantum effect. Jesus told us what will happen to those who try to imagine that they can sit on the fence – these are the luke warm Christians who in wanting and holding any degree of temporal reward over eternal reward are in so doing rejecting God. One must love God with one’s WHOLE heart - not divided loyalty. Would you marry a woman who sort-of-liked you but still had desires for other men?

But that does not mean there are not a large range of eternal rewards in heaven (“greatest” to “least”) and a similar range of punishments in hell.

But I am not necessarily speaking of rewards after physical death, but the possible first death. And certainly it is clear from various posts on here that we each come with our own ability. In fact, I’m not even recommending for anyone in particular to follow that path, unless they want to. For some, there is a particular reward of fulfillment and understanding that comes from Self Knowledge. But it is not for everyone. For such as you, it might even be dangerous. In fact, I think it would destroy your world.

Sorry, I can’t fully parse the mystery-language of Detale’s private-world. You will have to speak in common tongue to communicate with most here. All ability comes from God. I just don’t see how your Gnostic like self-knowledge theories apply to the OP. So I am moving past this.

But that is the point. All the world as we live in it, save for but a few, is our projected belief. If you can see though that veil of your own projection, you would learn something astonishing about yourself. Or not. In either case the best thing for you and you ilk, perhaps, is to exercise your faith to the absolute utmost. You might be surprised at the results. Let me know.

In any case, bon chance!

Can you back-up the assertion that reality is a projected belief with something concrete? Evidence please – or else project your reality universally so everyone else can see it and say “Eureka!”; and then please bend your private space-and-time to warp us all back to something relevant to the OP please.

James

 

[Detales]

"*Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world–and never will.- MARK TWAIN – “Consistency” speech and essay *

Thank you, James. You are a good ally, and I appreciate your demonstrative support.

Bindar

 

[Biggie]

Not just from this discussion, I am coming to the conclusion that much of RC teaching is good in theory, but fails (or differs) in reality/practice. It claims what you say above, but before the protestants got into this thread a concerned Catholic was being told what to do to get into heaven (how I would define “rest on works”). I am tempted to ask we divide debates on the RCC into discussions of Catholic Teaching and Catholic Practice (the teaching is far more convincing/compelling).

My response continues to be that it is unworthy to seek assurances of going to heaven. We should not sit on our assurances. (It is for those of another faith to debate who will sit on the right hand and the left hand of God.) For us, it is to do the work of the Lord.

Yet the RC believes this sin removes the child of God (Christian) from God’s mercy and damns him?

Unrepented mortal sin, yes. Mortal sin is a sin so serious as to make a statement of rejection of God’s mercy. You continue to ignore the issue of freedom, where by a person is free to reject his salvation, and you continue to present as though a person’s words to that effect are more important than his deeds to that effect.

I find your view unlike life itself, for surely I can tell you to leave or I can turn my back on you. Either way I have given you my statement. Then, in life, I change my mind and change it back again. At a certain point someone must ask what I really mean.

Have it your way, you have “saved” people, saints if you will, engaging in all manner of sin as we all do. The sins signify nothing, and nothing need be done as to them, but one good thought they had supercedes all they are doing and will do. Is this how we really relate to each other? And you think this is how we relate to God?

The Calvinist does not believe there is an act on our side (salvation is forced regardless of desire/merit). crivoice.org/tulip.html

I however hate extreme Calvinism, and have haggled with calvinist pastors regarding whether or not the “act of profession” is a saving work (the calvinist maintains that it is, thereby contradicting sola fide, proving aminianism/weslyanism wrong).

I dont have the exact quote in front of me, but Jacob Arminius said something like that if a man walks by a poor man and offers him bread and the poor man opens his hand to receive it, no one would say that the poor man’s act fed himself or that he did a work.

Opening the hand is a work, and bread would not have entered there had he not done so. I am simply saying that the difference you love so much between faith and work is a difference without a distinction. If faith is mere thought, what is it really?

Either your profession of faith is false or your sactification is slow.

If a profession of faith is a mere thought I had, how can it possibly be false? (unless of course you mean it is established by my deeds.) Surely not everyone who professes faith but then goes on to sin has made a false profession. And so we arrive at “slow santification”. Slow sanctification is a new one. So what is the difference between slow sanctification and doing evil and repenting?

Not to be insulting, but this is a very foreign and distasteful concept to me (at its face it seems to denigrate Christ and Calvary). Is this official RC teaching?

Yes. Nothing in it denigrates Christ and Calvary. We believe our sufferings can be joined to those of Our Lord for the remission of sin and the benefit of each other. Here is a fair summary:

There is this intimate bond between the cross, the epitome of the sufferings of Christ, and the suffering of the people which is a participation in the self-same cross. Thus participation in the cross through suffering is a way of obtaining grace, the power of God to participate in salvation. This is also why Paul can say elsewhere in Galatians: “Far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world…Henceforth let no man trouble me, for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus” (6:14, 17).

catholicnewsagency.com/resource.php?n=696

 

[UtSuShImI]

ROFL TO ALL OF YOU! DOING GOOD WORKS WILL NOTGET YOU TO HEAVEN!

GOOD WORKS ONLY COMES WITH SALVATION!
GOOD WORKS JUST STRENGTHENS YOUR BOND WITH CHRIST…
IT DOES NOT BRING YOU TO HEAVEN…

THERE ARE TO ANSWERS TO THIS!

YOU GO TO HEAVEN!= ACCEPTING JESUS CHRIST… AFTER THAT,YOU SHOULD BE CLOSE TO HIM…
“ANYONE WHO STRAYS FROM THE LORD,THE LORD WILL STRAY AWAY FROM HIM. ANYONE WHO GOES TO THE LORD,THE LORD WILL GO TO HIM”

or
YOU DON’T!=You didn’t accept God as your Savior!,

Everybody was given the right to accept the gift. But people just don’t want to accept it…

 

[Biggie]

ROFL TO ALL OF YOU! DOING GOOD WORKS WILL NOTGET YOU TO HEAVEN!

GOOD WORKS ONLY COMES WITH SALVATION!
GOOD WORKS JUST STRENGTHENS YOUR BOND WITH CHRIST…
IT DOES NOT BRING YOU TO HEAVEN…

THERE ARE TO ANSWERS TO THIS!

YOU GO TO HEAVEN!= ACCEPTING JESUS CHRIST… AFTER THAT,YOU SHOULD BE CLOSE TO HIM…
“ANYONE WHO STRAYS FROM THE LORD,THE LORD WILL STRAY AWAY FROM HIM. ANYONE WHO GOES TO THE LORD,THE LORD WILL GO TO HIM”

or
YOU DON’T!=You didn’t accept God as your Savior!,

Everybody was given the right to accept the gift. But people just don’t want to accept it…

but gee, if you accept Jesus Christ and then you stray away from him, and that means you didn’t accept him as you savior … then you are condemned although you are, say, twelve at the time? what if you change your mind when you’re fifty?

 

[CentralFLJames]

ROFL TO ALL OF YOU! DOING GOOD WORKS WILL NOTGET YOU TO HEAVEN!

GOOD WORKS ONLY COMES WITH SALVATION!
GOOD WORKS JUST STRENGTHENS YOUR BOND WITH CHRIST…
IT DOES NOT BRING YOU TO HEAVEN…

THERE ARE TO ANSWERS TO THIS!

YOU GO TO HEAVEN!= ACCEPTING JESUS CHRIST… AFTER THAT,YOU SHOULD BE CLOSE TO HIM…
“ANYONE WHO STRAYS FROM THE LORD,THE LORD WILL STRAY AWAY FROM HIM. ANYONE WHO GOES TO THE LORD,THE LORD WILL GO TO HIM”

or
YOU DON’T!=You didn’t accept God as your Savior!,

Everybody was given the right to accept the gift. But people just don’t want to accept it…

“Rolling on the floor laughing” (ROTFL) at God’s people is a work but it is not a good work and while some might consider it a variation of a traditional “holy roller” these man-made traditions will not get you into heaven.

We agree that no one gets to heaven unless there are accompanying good works that ratify a person’s claim of belief in Jesus as Lord. But Catholics also know that good works are only “good” if they are supernaturally given works of grace by God. Catholics also find it no laughing matter than those in grave post-baptismal sins who are not apostolically forgiven in the sacrament of confession or by perfect contrition and repentance (itself impossible without God’s grace) can NOT do any good supernatural work that will be accredited to his verification of faith.

You seem to think that heaven is some kind of cracker-jack prize that if somone only believes enough they win – kind of like hitting the carnival bell with the big mallet as hard as one can to ring the bell. I am here to tell you there are no “magic words” that open heavens door to you. No sir, a simple “I believe” is not going to get you into heaven. You must believe that Jesus is Lord but you must also serve Jesus as Lord and obey Him. In other words Lip-Service Christians who say one thing and do another are just like those who Jesus told us “not everyone who CALLS me Lord Lord will enter my Kingdom but HE who DOES MY Father’s will”. Notice that the words “DOES” is VERB which is a WORK. But doing God’s will also means obeying Christ’s commandments and one of those commandments to all Christians is to follow His appointed Church leaders - the Apostolic successors.

“Those that reject you reject ME and He who Sent ME”.

No one gets to heaven by rejection The Catholic Church and the pope and its bishops.

So your laughing at your own disobedience and ignorance here and need to sober up.

James