CFJ has really got your #
“Freed from the bondage of sin” is not my theological terminology, it’s yours. Catholicism is all about sin from its sacramental system to its doctrine of purgatory. But sin is not the primary focus of Biblical Christianity. In the Bible the Apostolic message is the once for all forgiveness of sins and the crediting (reckoning) of divine righteousness to all who believe in the Person and finished work of Jesus Christ.Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”
Yes, this is the teaching of Catholicism. But it’s not Apostolic teaching concerning sin and salvation. And it’s because of this non-Biblical teaching that “saved” is an unknown concept in Catholicism. All a Catholic can hope for in this life is that he will be accepted by God at the end of this life based on his obedience to the sacramental system set down by his religion.
Translated: The cross is personally non-efficacious and salvation is by works.
Multiple, on going, salvations? Hence, you confirm that there’s absolutely no concept of the idea of “saved” in this present life in Catholicism.
Again, sin always being in the forefront in Catholicism. But salvation faith believes God’s message regarding the forgiveness of ALL sins through faith in Christ, God’s Sin-bearer.
Yes, the big “IF” of Catholicism. The thought of “saved” (a past, completed, divine act) has no place in Catholicism. In Catholicism sin is always the determining factor, rendering the cross and the substitutionary, sacrificial death of Christ non-efficacious.
Which is the equivalent to saving oneself. But according to the Apostle we who have believed the message of the cross to save those who believe (1 Cor. 1:21) “have been saved by grace through faith…a gift of God, not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:8-9). These, it is revealed, are now “created (not being created) in Christ Jesus FOR good works” (Eph. 2:10), but not BY them.
Uh-huh, I always do. It’s a description of those in vs. 8-9 who have been saved by grace through faith and gifted salvation, “not as a result of works” that none may boast. Those saved by grace through faith, not as a result of works, are now, according to verse 10, “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works” that they should walk in them. But as Paul previously stated, they weren’t saved as a result of works, but “by grace through faith,” a gift of God.moondweller:
Uh, and continue on … read the next verse 10…
Actually, brb, Paul is presenting here salvation from the divine point of view, according to the sovereignty of God, and as a packaged deal: predestined, called, justified, glorified. All stated in the past tense, as a completed past action.
I would agree that for the believer spirituality is a process of growth/maturity/spiritual discipleship, but his salvation is gifted at the time of faith in Christ according to God’s grace alone.
Yes, that is the Catholic perspective. For the Catholic “saved” is not a present but future concept; couched in the hope of being found at that time in a “state of grace,” free of any “mortal sin.” Again, sin always being the determining factor in Catholicism, thereby rendering the cross of Christ non-efficacious in respect to personal forgiveness.
To the contrary, I know them both.
**The problem is that you don’t understand what "faith" is. **
The N.T. is theopneustos, not “Catholic.” It was written by men who were chosen to preserve in writing by divine power the doctrines regarding salvation through personal faith in Christ which God wrought through Him.moondweller:
This is a false statement, Moon. You see, the NT is Catholic, written by Catholics. Therefore, everything in it represents Catholic belief.
Biblically this is true: for ALL sins. But for the Catholic its only “original sin” for the water baptized infant; and only sins up to the time of water baptism for the adult convert.
In Catholicism this is qualified by restricting it to “initial” justification only. Catholic justification is snuffed out completely through an act of “mortal” sin. Sin is always at the forefront in Catholicism. For this reason “saved” (as a past, completed divine action) is not a Catholic concept.
You qualify it by the word “offered,” not “gifted” (see Rom. 6:23). And contrary to Christ’s words in Jn. 3:14-18; 5:24 no Catholic would ever say he “has” eternal life. To the Catholic mind that would be presumptuous, but to the Biblical believer it’s a gifted possession and a present reality. And he understands “eternal” to mean just that: “ETERNAL” (everlasting)
But that Catholic “child of God” will not enter heaven if stained with mortal sin at the time of death; hence, not “saved” in this lifetime.
But not on a “saved” basis.
A future hope only for Catholics, not a present day reality as it is for the Biblical believer.
But the Catholic still has his own work to do; as I’ve seen often on this forum (right on this thread in fact): “Christ’s part is finished. Ours continues unto death.”
Only to be transferred back into the kingdom of darkness via mortal sin.
A future, “hope so” concept only for the Catholic, not a present day reality as it is for Biblical believers.
Only to be unsealed by “mortal sin.”
The Catholic has no concept of “saved” in this present life.
Heaven is not a guaranteed promise for the Catholic. There’s no concept of “saved” (i.e., a once for all, completed, divine act) in Catholicism. In Catholicism it’s a life long process which requires complete cooperation from the Catholic. So he should be given a complete list of all that he must not do (and do) to decrease his chances of not being saved at the end of his life. I don’t think your Magisterium has ever presented an “official” list of all the “mortal sins.” Catholics are always asking what is permissible and what is not according to your soteriological system of rules. Prime example is the O.P.'s question.
Those in Matt. 7:21-23 boasted of many works done in His name. But in the end Jesus said, “I never knew you.” Why? Because they tried to enter the kingdom by works, not by faith in Him alone.
Actually, redemption is one part of salvation. Christ’s work of redemption is applied to the believer, in full, at the time of belief in Him:Eph 1:7 “In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace…”
Do you really have a clue about what Catholicism teaches MD? If you looked at the Catholic Catechism you would see that teaching the biblical truth that we are to repent and “sin no more” that sin is only one of many aspects of our faith. Go look at the Table of Contents of the Catholic Catechism and tell me how much of that teaching is on sin. You are very biased in your views and really don’t know what you are talking about. Catholicism is THE ONLY religion that teaches the full teaching on salvation - a teaching that has it has a past, present and future event. If you are a representative Protestant then Protestant’s are mostly linear and 2-dimensional thinkers who can’t get out of the temporal world of the here and now. If you want to be saved you better start learning obedience MD and stop presuming that you are saved in Eternity by teaching a false gospel or by criticizing Christ’s Bride - His Catholic Church. I am sorry to break up your party but Christ did not come to die and rise again just to give you a free license to sin and to presume upon His Mercy. Catholics who conform to the teachings and the sacraments have high confidence in their salvation - but none of us would dare to put ourselves in the Mercy seat of God to self-proclaim and judge ourselves “saved”.
Baptism and repentance for the forgivness of sins is exactly what the apostles taught. No disciple of Christ ever taught that one had a licence to sin after repenting. The teaching is that God will always forgive us now that Christ has over-paid our accounts but each time we sin we must again repent and tell God we are sorry and do penance.
There is no semantical difference. Gifts are NEVER forced on anyone. All gifts are offered. And this is the part you need to understand MD. The gift offered by Christ is ETERNAL and SO GREAT that some can not accept it due to pride. The antidote to original sin is humility of Christ’s obedience to God on the cross and we are asked to accept that gift through the same humility. Many will not since to believe in the gift exceeds the capacity of the proud heart to accept since these do not want to feel in-debt to such generosity. We have eternal life if we ACCEPT the gift and do not reject our gift and lose it by disgraceful or foolish behaviors (ref. the Prodigals Son). There is also the notion of coming to the wedding feast in proper attire - and not soiling our baptismal robes and presenting ourselves in rags the King would not recognize as befitting His child.
A properly catechized Catholic who keeps himself in grace by avoiding sin and being a good Christian and obeying Christ’s commandments is the most confident person on the planet that God will judge Him saved for all eternity when He goes to meet God face to face.
Catholics & all men have their conscience as their first rule.
Trust in the merits of Yeshua. Live a life devoted to Him.What does a catholic need to do to increase their possible of getting into heaven when the die ???
thnx
Again - you fail to see the CONTEXT of Scripture.
I addressed this in an earlier post, but here it is again:Joh 3:36 “He that believes (pisteuo) on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believes not (apeitheo) the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him” (KJV).The Greek word peitho means: “to persuade” (see Acts 28:23). And in this verse apeitheo means to be unpersuaded and therefore remain in disbelief (see Acts 14:2). Obedience is to believe and be saved. The obedient walk of the saved/justified is then one of faith see 2 Cor. 5:7).
WRONG.
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”
MD, you have gone to the trouble of constructing a silent interior vignette by cheery picking a few scripture verses that you imagine support your own private theology and tossed them out without any explanation. But no Catholics here can read your mind nor understand what is you imagine this particular bead of pearls you have artificially created means to you without YOUR commentary. In fact the confusion you are generating just proves to us that sola scriptura is defunct as a self-teaching methodology.elvisman:
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”
John 5:38 “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.”
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
What does this mean? Other than the fact that you have a REALLY difficult time understanding just exactly what BELIEVE means in the CONTEXT of Scripture.
Right
PART 1 / initial justification, rebirth, adoption by God.… said 'as if ’ Catholics are not Biblical believers, while you are? We accept 100 % of scriptures … while you and your protesting friends reject much of SS.
What specifically about this quote do you disagree with ? Catholic hope ? acceptance by God ? Lifes final day ? obedience ? Church Sacraments ? … or the Church itself ?