How does a Catholic increase the chance of getting into Heaven?

[Doxiemom]

The problem with complete acceptence of OSAS is that it can lead to being lazy with your faith of Jesus Christ. You can begin to not guard your spirit any longer. You can begin to discount just how much sin is an offense to God.

That is why the catholic church teaches what it teaches so that each Chrsitian will continually take measure of their lives. It is not a level playing field we are on. Each of us has been given just enough talent and time to complete the tasks He would have us do according to His Will.

It is like the servant who, instead of investing the money to gain more for his master, he just buried it. Once buried always buried. He took the lazy way out. Didn’t even have to guard it. never gave it a thought that it would be an offense to his master that he just took it for granted that it was still there. Isn’t that a bit like OSAS?

it is reasonable that people who know that they are sinners , but work hard at overcoming thier sinful nature, will enter into heaven. It is reasonable for people who work at prayer, work at being a good chrsitian, will enter heaven. this is doing the Will of God. But, you can’t just stop and say, I’ve done enough. For whatever stage of life you are in, with what strenght you have in you, you must continue to do His Will. Continue to fight Satan and his demons.

I am a firm believer that it takes a whole lot for God to turn you away. But you can live the life of Mother teresa for 40 years and then live the life of a pig for 10 and not once look back to God. You can spurn Him. And that is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of which there is NO FORGIVENESS.

So, you want to go to heaven? Work at it. Don’t bury your faith in the dirt, and not guard Do the Will of our Father.

But, it is not the Will of God for us to doubt the Power of the Cross either. I mean, look at what He did for you, for me. Have faith in that. Take pleasure and bask in His Love. That too is a good work .

I think it is fun to work at going to heaven. it isn’t a drag. Makes me feel good. We were given the map and compass to heaven. All we got to do is follow the directions. Get lost, and find your way back on the right road. You’ll make it there.

 

[moondweller]

I am sorry to break up your party but Christ did not come to die and rise again just to give you a free license to sin and to presume upon His Mercy.

I agree. I also agree with the Apostle Paul who wrote to your church regarding the true believer’s attitude toward sin and grace in light of the divinely revealed fact that ALL his sins (past, present & future) have been forgiven:Rom 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died TO sin (with Christ) still live in it?

Catholics who conform to the teachings and the sacraments have high confidence in their salvation - but none of us would dare to put ourselves in the Mercy seat of God to self-proclaim and judge ourselves “saved”.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! Finally at least one of you admits to the fact that “saved” is a foreign concept in Catholic soteriology. Why didn’t you just agree with me in the first place and we could have saved a lot of time and space.

 

[brb2]

Rom 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died TO sin (with Christ) **still live in it?

.**

Spoken like a Catholic … Md

But, as a Protestant … I gave tacit lip service to the Pauline/Catholic teaching, but didn’t / couldn’t live up to it. It takes the Church, with its Eucharist and proper understandings/dogmas on grace … to make the Pauline scripture become reality.

 

[brb2]

]Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!

Finally at least one of you admits to the fact that “saved” is a foreign concept in Catholic soteriology.

.

No … we’ve acknowledged salvation all along. You don’t read well.

Catholics believe we HAVE BEEN saved, ARE saved, and HOPE to be saved on our last day. We know the real and ever-present temptations of satan have claimed many who ‘once believed’.

Remember the words of Christ … “Many are called, but few are chosen”.
Also … remember the many verses of Paul regarding Apostasy among the converts.

 

[brb2]

And just how do you account for how men who would swear on the bible that that they were totally depraved men that can do not good explain the magic by which they were able to to reform The Catholic Church and escape from re-making it in their own depraved image. Explain this riddle of babel for us please.

Checkmate …

Md loves his sin too much to part from it. Luther’s teaching that avoiding post-baptismal sin was hopeless, … allowed him & you to falsely believe that “where sin abounds, grace abounds moreso”.

M’dweller, Catholics agree that such grace abounds … but, only up to the point of our rebirth/baptism. For, if we fall back to ‘sinning with impunity’, ADDITIONAL contrite confession is essential … to restore us back to right covenantal relationships with Christ. And, purgatorial penance must be served for such error … both in this world and our next destination.

 

[brb2]

Baptism and repentance for the forgivness of sins is exactly what the apostles taught. No disciple of Christ ever taught that one had a licence to sin after repenting. The teaching is that God will always forgive us now that Christ has over-paid our accounts but each time we sin we must again repent and tell God we are sorry and do penance.

There is no such thing as a single one time “forensic” justification for individuals. This is a Protestant invention that no apostle or successor ever taught. Baptism reconfigures the natural soul to a divine-human soul capable of receiving the Trinity. But God will not stay if you let your tent pull of its poles and pegs by sinning again. Your kind of Protestant wants to believe he can run away from sin and drown it behind him in the parting sea and never again have to look back at sin again even as his brothers construct the Golden Calf of Once Saved Always Saved and invite you to worship this false doctrine over the True God through the True Faith. Don’t look now MD but you’re in a camp of sinners who are not saved and would love company to go right on sinning and thinking their false doctrines will let them have their fun and salvation too. Why do I think you would have been in Korah’s rebellion and gone down with him for your belief in the universal priesthood being equal to the Ministerial priesthood.

There is no semantical difference. Gifts are NEVER forced on anyone. All gifts are offered. And this is the part you need to understand MD. The gift offered by Christ is ETERNAL and SO GREAT that some can not accept it due to pride. The antidote to original sin is humility of Christ’s obedience to God on the cross and we are asked to accept that gift through the same humility. Many will not since to believe in the gift exceeds the capacity of the proud heart to accept since these do not want to feel in-debt to such generosity. We have eternal life if we ACCEPT the gift and do not reject our gift and lose it by disgraceful or foolish behaviors (ref. the Prodigals Son). There is also the notion of coming to the wedding feast in proper attire - and not soiling our baptismal robes and presenting ourselves in rags the King would not recognize as befitting His child.

A properly catechized Catholic who keeps himself in grace by avoiding sin and being a good Christian and obeying Christ’s commandments is the most confident person on the planet that God will judge Him saved for all eternity when He goes to meet God face to face.

Catholics & all men have their conscience as their first rule.

Man is obliged to follow the moral law, which urges him “to do what is good and avoid what is evil”. This law makes itself heard in his conscience. That same conscience tells us through natural reason that conscience must be taught and informed in order to arrive at proper decisions in life and conduct oneself as a good Christian. In Catholicism, conscience is the first teacher. The Decalogue was the first written Divine Teaching. And from there we are told to Love God with whole heart and neighbor as ourselves and are given specific Catholic teachings that are pragmatic helps in conducting daily life. There is no need to publish a large combinatorial database of all conceivable sins - the heart knows and convicts itself through God’s natural Laws if not the written law. Ignorance can be an excuse but disobedience against the conscience and the moral law that is written on the heart is never an excuse.

There is a concept as a final once and for all salvation - it is when one accepts Christ in baptism and it is made permanent when God judges the soul worthy of Eternal Glory and God crowns that soul in His final step of sanctification. God did not permit Jesus to give the authority to loose and bind and to make disciples of all the nations and convey the apostolic authority for all time until after He died and rose again and received it from on High from God the Father. No one gets to heaven except through the doorway of Christ’s death on the cross and dieing to self in Christ.

CFJ …

A+ Apologetics. No one here can do it so well. Day after day you turn out these gems.

St. Peter / Paul / Augustine / Athanasus , and all of us here at CAF, … are all enjoying your ‘spot on’ mastery of Christian Theology/Church History.

Might we say … Pneumo-inspired

 

[guanophore]

“Freed from the bondage of sin” is not my theological terminology, it’s yours.

You don’t find it biblical?

Gal 4:8-9

8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were in bondage to beings that by nature are no gods; 9 but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits, whose slaves you want to be once more?

Catholicism is all about sin from its sacramental system to its doctrine of purgatory.

Actually, this is false. Catholicism is about freeedom. We are freed from something, for something.

Sacraments are not a “system”. They are avenues of God’s grace.

Purgatory is about just what the name means, purging. It is purifying the soul to be fit for heaven. Purification is part of being saved.

But sin is not the primary focus of Biblical Christianity.

Christianity is not something extracted from scripture 1500 years after the fact. It is founded by Christ, and built upon the Apostles and Prophets. It is not a “religion of the book”. Your contrivance of biblical christianity is a modern contrivance.

In the Bible the Apostolic message is the forgiveness of sins and the crediting (reckoning) of divine righteousness to all who believe in the Person and work of Jesus Christ.Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

This is recorded in scripture because it is Catholic, and the NT reflects Catholic beliefs.

(Biblical) revelation every true believer in Christ has “died to sin” with Christ and we who have died “to sin” with Christ are “freed from sin:”

Rom 6:1-2 "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
​

Indicating that it is still possible for believers to live in sin. In fact, some do. And the nature of sin has not changed. Sin still separates us from God.

Rom 6:7 "…for he who has died is freed from sin."An Apostolic teaching Catholicism rejects but instead continues to keep sin as the determining factor of salvation rather than the cross and the Sin-bearer who, on it, was made sin (our sins) on our behalf that we (believers) might become the righteousness of God in Him:2 Cor 5:21 “He made Him who knew no sin {to be} sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”

I think you have a need to believe this, so that you can justify the Church founded by Christ. However, Catholicism teaches that the only basis salvation is the grace and mercy of God. This is clear in the Catholic Catechism, as well as in the Holy Scriptures.

Yes, this is the teaching of Catholicism. But it’s not Apostolic teaching concerning sin and salvation. And it’s because of this non-Biblical teaching that “saved” is an unknown concept in Catholicism.

Certainly your perception of “saved” is unknown, as your concept is not part of the once for all divine deposit of faith given to us by the Apostles. And even a cursory glance at the Catholic Catechism will make it clear that the concept of “saved” is definitely part of Catholic Theology. The NT was created by, for, and about Catholics. It is plentious with references to being “saved” .

All a Catholic can hope for in this life is that he will be accepted by God at the end of this life based on his obedience to the sacramental system set down by his religion.

This is another false statement. One must be amazed that you have been on CAF so long, and yet, learned so little about the Catholic faith. The Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by grace, through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast. The basis of our salvation is God’s mercy.

Catholicism teaches that God wants to deliver us from sin in this life, as wel as the next.

Titus 3:5-8
5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

Yes, His mercy does give us cause to hope in eternal life.

Translated: The cross is personally non-efficacious and salvation is by works.

It is a puzzle why you feel a need to “translate” the message of grace in this manner.

Again, sin always being in the forefront in Catholicism.

I think, if you read the Apostle’s creed, you will find this is not the case.

The source and summit of the Catholic faith is the complete self donation of our saviour to purify His Bride, and consecrate her to Himself.

But salvation faith believes God’s message regarding the forgiveness of ALL sins through faith in Christ, God’s Sin-bearer.

It is very Catholic of you to say this! Apart from the shedding of His blood, there is no forgiveness of sins.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, the big “IF” of Catholicism.

If you are willing to give the NT a more objective read, I think you will find that there are many of these “conditional” statements. That means that the outcome depends upon what is referenced.

Gen 4:6-7
7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is couching at
the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it."

Deut 11:26-28
26 "Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse: 27 the blessing, if you obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day, 28 and the curse, if you do not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside from the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods which you have not known.

Josh 24:19-21
19 But Joshua said to the people, “You cannot serve the LORD; for he is a holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins. 20 If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, then he will turn and do you harm, and consume you, after having done you good.”

1 Sam 12:14-16
14 If you will fear the LORD and serve him and hearken to his voice and not rebel against
the commandment of the LORD, and if both you and the king who reigns over you will
follow the LORD your God, it will be well; 15 but if you will not hearken to the voice of
the LORD, but rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then the hand of the LORD
will be against you and your king.

1 Chron 22:13
13 Then you will prosper** if **you are careful to observe the statutes and the ordinances which the LORD commanded

1 Chron 28:9-10
for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will cast you off for ever.

2 Chron 7:13-15
14 if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my
face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive
their sin and heal their land.

The thought of “saved” (a past, completed, divine act) has no place in Catholicism.

This is another false statement, Moon. This is easily seen in the catechism on baptism.

In Catholicism sin is always the determining factor, rendering the cross and the substitutionary, sacrificial death of Christ non-efficacious.

You know, if your premise were true, then your conclusion would be. However, since it is His grace which is the determining factor, then your conclusion is wrong. Jesus conquered sin and death on the cross. Sin is no longer master over us.

Which is the equivalent to saving oneself.

Yes, I agree. If what you were asserting about the Catholic faith were true, then this would be the logical conclusion. Fortunately, your assertions are false.

But according to the Apostle we who have believed the message of the cross to save those who believe (1 Cor. 1:21) “have been saved by grace through faith…a gift of God, not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:8-9). ]/quote]

A great Catholic saying by a great Catholic.
moondweller;5565252:

These, it is revealed, are now "created

(not being created) in Christ Jesus FOR good works" (Eph. 2:10), but not BY them.

Both things are true. We are created anew in baptism, and then

Col 3:10
10 and have put on the new nature, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator

You confirm to me that in Catholicism "saved

" is nonexistent concept during this lifetime - contrary to Divine revelation. Saved (a past, continuous, completed divine event), it’s what the gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ is all about.

Your understanding of salvation is deficient. We are saved, being saved, and will be saved, all at the same time!

 

[guanophore]

Yes, that is the Catholic perspective. For the Catholic “saved” is not a present but future concept; couched in the hope of being found at that time in a “state of grace,” free of any “mortal sin.” Again, sin always being the determining factor in Catholicism, thereby rendering the cross of Christ non-efficacious in respect to personal forgiveness.

This is false, Moon. In the Catholic (Apostolic Teaching) some aspecs of salvation are completed at baptism, some are being worked out in us, and some are yet to come. Sin is not the determining factor in Catholicism, but God’s grace, which has delivered us, is delivering us, and will deliver us.

However, the Apostles taught that the nature of sin has not changed, and that sin can still separate us from God’s grace. The scriptures bear this out.

To the contrary, I know them both.

Your statements give proof to the opposite.

 

[brb2]

Obedience is to believe and be saved. The obedient walk of the saved/justified is then one of faith [see 2 Cor. 5:7).

This idea expressed above, forms the basis for your definition of SAVED.

Obedience is more than just your First Belief / justification. For you, when the scriptures speak of ‘obey / obedience’ … its always about your ‘once-upon-a-time’ faith. You obeyed ONCE in you life … and you think that is ALL that is essential to anyone’s salvation. You were ‘crowned’ by Christ … and nobody nor principality can remove your tiara.

Even the thief on Cross made public confession, expressed contrition, testified to Lordship of Christ, & gave witness to the other thief of their just guilt & punishment and Christ’s unjust punishment for sins of mankind.

And, if he had lived longer … would not Christ have expected him to join with the other Catholic disciples and live obedience by deed [gracious works]; and not simply his first faith at Calvary ? Living by deed, according to the Baptismal saying: “Buried in Christ, and raised to NEWNESS of life”.

Salvation is more than what Christ does for US. We have a Great Commission command, and we have a Catholic Church to support and serve. You cannot separate your Private Faith from Christ’s Church … creating your own separate ’ but equal ’ , schismatic theology and church. You have tried to, but the result is apparent to us all … a patchwork theology that is filled with scriptural ‘disconnects’.

Its time you acknowledge your difficulties managing the post-baptismal sin in your life … and let the ‘secondary’ graces [available via the Catholicism and its Sacraments] start to heal the rifts. Serve your Lord … thru his Church body. Its all about teamwork. Become a team player …
[/quote]

 

[moondweller]

If you are willing to give the NT a more objective read, I think you will find that there are many of these “conditional” statements. That means that the outcome depends upon what is referenced.

Gen 4:6-7
7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is couching at
the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it."

Deut 11:26-28
26 "Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse: 27 the blessing, if you obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day, 28 and the curse, if you do not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside from the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods which you have not known.

Josh 24:19-21
19 But Joshua said to the people, “You cannot serve the LORD; for he is a holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins. 20 If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, then he will turn and do you harm, and consume you, after having done you good.”

1 Sam 12:14-16
14 If you will fear the LORD and serve him and hearken to his voice and not rebel against
the commandment of the LORD, and if both you and the king who reigns over you will
follow the LORD your God, it will be well; 15 but if you will not hearken to the voice of
the LORD, but rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then the hand of the LORD
will be against you and your king.

1 Chron 22:13
13 Then you will prosper** if **you are careful to observe the statutes and the ordinances which the LORD commanded

1 Chron 28:9-10
for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will cast you off for ever.

2 Chron 7:13-15
14 if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my
face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive
their sin and heal their land.

You ask if I’m willing to give the N.T. a more objective read and then you quote the O.T. to me? Guanophore, Someone greater than Moses has come and inaugurated a better covenant with better promises. Read the Book of Hebrews in the N.T. for a better understanding.

Your understanding of salvation is deficient. We are saved, being saved, and will be saved, all at the same time!

That’s the equivalent to saying you’re born, you’re being born, and you will be born all at the same time. No, my friend, the reality is, if you’re born you’re born. It’s not a present process nor a future event. Nor do you give birth to yourself.

If you’re saved, you’re saved. If you’re being saved then you’re not saved. If you will be saved then you’re not being saved, nor are you saved.

What you haven’t understood is that it’s God who saves, you don’t save yourself. And according to His Word He saves the true believer as a gift by grace through faith, not as a result of works (Eph. 2:8-9).

IOW, God has saved the believer by grace alone, though faith alone, through the finished work of Christ alone - to His glory. Anything else is salvation by works, and that, my friend, is another gospel.

 

[moondweller]

Salvation is more than what Christ does for US.

God Himself, once for all, saves the believer based on what Christ has DONE, once for all, for us.

We have a Great Commission command,

That great commission was given to those who were saved by faith in what Christ had DONE. Their commission was to take that message of salvation by grace through faith to the world that others would also believe and be saved by grace through personal faith in what Christ had DONE.

and we have a Catholic Church to support and serve.

Upon belief in the Person and work of Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit baptizes the believer into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13), which is the church (Col. 1:18,24), and we serve the head of the body, which is Christ, the Savior of the body (Eph. 5:23).

 

[brb2]

Upon belief in the Person and work of Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit baptizes the believer into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13), which is the church (Col. 1:18,24), and we serve the head of the body, which is Christ, the Savior of the body (Eph. 5:23).

OK … I don’t think anyone will disagree with this statement.

So … our mission is to locate that unified Church. Do you have any candidates for us to consider ?

 

[guanophore]

Md loves his sin too much to part from it. Luther’s teaching that avoiding post-baptismal sin was hopeless, … allowed him & you to falsely believe that “where sin abounds, grace abounds moreso”.

M’dweller, Catholics agree that such grace abounds … but, only up to the point of our rebirth/baptism. For, if we fall back to ‘sinning with impunity’, ADDITIONAL contrite confession is essential … to restore us back to right covenantal relationships with Christ. And, purgatorial penance must be served for such error … both in this world and our next destination.

I disagree with this for several reasons. I do not think it is fair to Moon to accuse him of “loving his sin too much”. His posts have made it clear that he does not believe grace is a license to sin, and that he is very devoted to sanctification and living a holy life.

While it is true that the concept that living a sinless life is heresy, it is not false to believe taht while sin abounds grace abounds moreso. This is Apostolic Teaching.

Grace does not stop “abounding” after baptism. This abounding grace is what is available to us in reconciliation It is also not necessary to plan on purgatory. We must all strive here and now for the holiness without which we will not see God. It is attainable now, and at the hour of our death.

 

[guanophore]

You ask if I’m willing to give the N.T. a more objective read and then you quote the O.T. to me? Guanophore, Someone greater than Moses has come and inaugurated a better covenant with better promises.

You are absolutely right. I got so enamored of the plethora of passages revealing the conditional will of God that I stopped in the OT! The principle has not changed, though. Of course, someon greater than Moses has come, but He did not set aside what God had already revealed to His people. God’s dealing with mankind has always been predicated upon “if”. This principle is clear in these passages.

However, you are right to call for the NT revealing of what is concealed in the new.

Matt 6:14-15
4 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15
but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your
trespasses.

Matt 18:34-35
34 And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. 35 So
also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother
from your heart."

Matt 19:17
If you would enter life, keep the commandments."

Mark 11:24-25
25 And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against any one; so that
your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses."

John 13:8-9
“If I do not wash you, you have no part in me.”

John 13:17
17 If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them.

John 15:6
If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches
are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

John 15:10
10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love,

Rom 8:12-14
12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh - 13
for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the
deeds of the body you will live.

Rom 10:9-10
if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised
him from the dead, you will be saved.

Gal 6:8-10
9 And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not
lose heart.

Heb 3:6
And we are his house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our hope.

Heb 3:14-15
4 For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end, 15

1 John 2:2-3
3 And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:24-25
If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in
the Father. 25 And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.

Rev 2:16-17
16 Repent then. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my
mouth.

Rev 3:3
3 Remember then what you received and heard; keep that, and repent. If you will not
awake, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come upon you.

Rev 3:20-22
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any one hears my voice and opens the door, I
will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. 21 He who conquers, I will grant
him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on
his throne.

In each of these cases, the condition must be met for the outcome to occur.

 

[guanophore]

That's the equivalent to saying you're *born*, you're *being born*, and you *will be born* all at the same time.  No, my friend, the reality is, if you're *born* you're *born*.  It's not a present process nor a future event.  Nor do you give birth to yourself.

It seems that way to you because you are suffering a deficient understanding of salvation. Salvation begins when we are born again in baptism. The reason Catholics do not support “again” baptism is because we recognize that one is only born once, both physically, and spiritually.

However, once a person has entered the River of Life, one is free to get out of it and walk away.

Salvation is not something that happens at one point in time, for all time, as you have been led to believe. It begins, works in us, and is completed in us at the end of this life.

If you’re saved, you’re saved.

You espouse this view because you have departed from the Apostolic Teaching that being born again is only part of what it means to be saved. There are elements of salvation that happen at one point in time, for all time. Yet there are elements that are not.

If you're *being saved* then you're not  *saved*.  If you *will be saved* then you're not *being saved*, nor are you *saved*.

This seems like some black and white thinking that excludes the truth of the Scriptures.

What is it in this passage that the Apostles is not presuming to have attained?

Phil 3:13-16
13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

What you haven’t understood is that it’s God who saves, you don’t save yourself. And according to His Word He saves the true believer as a gift by grace through faith, not as a result of works (Eph. 2:8-9).

Oh, I understand it just fine.

I just don’t stop reading at v. 10. I believe that grace that saves us is the same as that which produces the good works in us. I believe that good works are like a glove, and grace is the hand within the glove that animates them. I believe that I have died, and my life is now hidden with Christ, in God, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ, who lives in me. The life I now live, I live to God, and those works that He has prepared beforehand, that I should walk in them, are my spiritual worship. They are not produced by myself, but God, who is at work in me to will and to do His good pleasure.

IOW, God has saved the believer by grace alone, though faith alone, through the finished work of Christ alone - to His glory. Anything else is salvation by works, and that, my friend, is another gospel.

Faith is never alone, Moon, but it is always accompanied by love and hope.

1 Cor 13:12-13
13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Haven’t you ever wondered why, if we are saved by “faith alone” the Apostles taught that love was greater?

It is faith in the finished work of Christ that enables us to obey Him, and to allow His Spirit to manifest in us the works of righteousness that He has prepared for us. They are not separated in any way from the grace that saves us. They are the fruit of that grace, and produce righteousness in us.

 

[brb2]

I do not think it is fair to Moon to accuse him of “loving his sin too much”.

While it is true that the concept that living a sinless life is heresy, it is not false to believe taht while sin abounds grace abounds moreso. This is Apostolic Teaching.

.

Not that he ‘loves to sin’, but Protestants can be prone to disregard our inevitable post-baptismal sin. How many times have we read in Md’s posts where he teaches that ALL his sins have been dealt with ‘once for all times’. He does not teach that periodic confession is necessary … since he is SAVED [in Future tense]. He also denies that post-baptismal GRACE is available to the believer. He got all his ‘lumpsum grace’ back on day 1 … so he claims. Catholic ideas of secondary grace via Sacraments are foreign to him.

Nevertheless, the Lord’s Prayer points out our/his need to DAILY repent and be forgiven.

You say it is Apostolic Teaching that ‘where sin abounds, grace abounds moreso’.
I acknowledge this with regards to sincere repentance via confession. Even wayward Believers [per Prodigal Son parable] need to confess and turn back from ‘sin that abounds’.

Protestants can too easily believe that today’s / tomorrow’s sins were ALREADY confessed, and covered at the Cross. I find no support for this idea in scripture or the Catholic Church’s teachings.

Christ specifically taught that all he heals [justifies] are to turn from former ways and "sin no more’. St. Augustine deals with the post-baptismal sins at great length in his writings. We are never taught in the NT that post-baptismal sins are ‘previously confessed’. This idea is also totally foreign to OT concepts about sin. David was constantly seeing need to repent, and be restored with his Lord.

I’ve a question for Moondweller //// How do you view the Lord’s Prayer in your Theology, and its daily implications upon your Salvation Status ?

 

[CentralFLJames]

You ask if I’m willing to give the N.T. a more objective read and then you quote the O.T. to me? Guanophore, Someone greater than Moses has come and inaugurated a better covenant with better promises. Read the Book of Hebrews in the N.T. for a better understanding.That’s the equivalent to saying you’re born, you’re being born, and you will be born all at the same time. No, my friend, the reality is, if you’re born you’re born. It’s not a present process nor a future event. Nor do you give birth to yourself.

If you’re saved, you’re saved. If you’re being saved then you’re not saved. If you will be saved then you’re not being saved, nor are you saved.

What you haven’t understood is that it’s God who saves, you don’t save yourself. And according to His Word He saves the true believer as a gift by grace through faith, not as a result of works (Eph. 2:8-9).

IOW, God has saved the believer by grace alone, though faith alone, through the finished work of Christ alone - to His glory. Anything else is salvation by works, and that, my friend, is another gospel.

If what you said were true the following scriptural verses would not be in the bible:

VI. I Have Been Saved (past event)

Rom. 8:24 - for in this hope we were saved (but, again, why “hope” if salvation is a certainty?)

Eph. 2:5,8 - for by grace you have been saved through faith.

2 Tim. 1:9 - He saved us and called us through grace and not by virtue of our own works outside of His grace.

Titus 3:5 - He saved us in virtue of His own mercy, and not by our deeds.

VII. I Am Being Saved (present event)

1 Cor. 1:18 - for the word of the cross is folly to those perishing, but for to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. Salvation is not a one-time event. It is a process of perseverance through faith, hope and love.

2 Cor. 2:15 - for we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved. Salvation is a continual process.

Phil. 2:12 - we are working out our salvation through fear and trembling. Salvation is an ongoing process.

1 Peter 1:9 - you obtain the salvation of your souls as the outcome of your faith. Working out our salvation in fear and trembling is a lifelong process.

VIII. I Will Be Saved (future event)
Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - again, Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. Salvation is a past, present and future event (not a one-time event at an altar call).

Mark 16:16 – Jesus says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.

Acts 15:11 - we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus.

Rom. 5:9-10 - since we are justified by His blood, we shall be saved.

Rom. 13:11 - salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. How can we be only nearer to something we already have?

1 Cor. 3:15 - he will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Cor. 5:5 - Paul commands the Church to deliver a man to satan, that he will be saved in the day of the Lord.

2 Tim. 2:11-12 - if we endure, we shall also reign with Him. This requires endurance until the end of our lives.

Heb. 9:28 - Jesus will appear a second time to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him.

James 5:15 - the sacrament of the sick will save the sick man and the Lord will raise him up.

More here: scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#salvation-I

James

 

[Love_is_Patient]

Well there are a lot things they can DO to increase the chances…

• Be baptised (usually prerequisite to become catholic…
• Be confirmed
• Keep the 10 commandments and the great commandment
• Pray to God
• Pray to Mary
• Pray to the other saints and archangels (e.g. Michael, the Archangel)
• Go to confession once a week (well at least once a year)
• Receive Communion once a week (better: every day… at least once a year though)
• Fast during lent
• Get married in the Church or abstain from sexual contact
• If married only have sex for reproductive reasons
• Give to the poor
• Visit the sick
• Pay for a mass being said for a deceased relative and hope others do the same for you and a lot…
• Go on a pilgrimage (Lourdes, Fátima, Vatican City and Santiago de Compostela are really great… Jerusalem and Bethlehem make a good place to go to too…)
• Pray the rosary
• Receive indulgences that are formally approved by the pope… (follow the directions and get out of purgatory faster)
• Pray for the intention of the pope
• Believe all Dogmas and Doctrines of the Church
• Stay within the Church

Not saying that all Catholics do all of this, but it increases the chances…

Too much work; I’m tired just looking at the list of things to do…need a break.

Really? That’s too much work? I’m just flabbergasted. Jesus DIED for you, man! It’s hardly “work” to ask you to show your appreciation in your actions.

Love is Patient

 

[brb2]

God has saved the believer by grace alone, though faith alone, through the finished work of Christ alone - to His glory. Anything else is salvation by works, and that, my friend, is another gospel.

Not according to James, Paul, St. Augustine … and Christ. Without ‘gracious works’, one is a hearer of the word and not a doer. Christ didn’t teach a gospel message devoid of actions: Take up Cross and follow, go and sin no more, take the gospel to all nations, have a faith that can move mountains, etc. ]

St. Augustine, 420 A.D. /// Against the Pelagians

Many of the baptized faithful are without crime; but I would not say that anyone in this life is without sin, however much the Pelagians are inflated and burst asunder by their madness against us because of our saying this. It is not because some sins remain which are not remitted in Baptism, but because WE WHO REMAIN in the infirmtiy of this life do not cease to commit daily those sins which, for those WHO PRAY FAITHFULLY and DO WORKS OF MERCY, are DAILY REMITTED.

So Moondweller …

Post-baptismal sins are committed daily by all the justified. Those elect who God allows to remain in the infirmity of this life. We must pray / confess daily, live the Beatitudes … and Christ actively pours out his grace(s) on us. We have the Lord’s Prayer as our DAILY guide – asking forgiveness of our post-baptismal sins.

Bearing our Cross every day … forgiven by Christ’s Cross. Once [in our past], Today, and Forever //// Catholic Christian Salvation … as taught by sacred scripture, the Apostles, & Saints. This is how one has 100 % confidence [certain chance] of getting to heaven.