How does a Catholic increase the chance of getting into Heaven?

[guanophore]

I certainly don’t admit to nor agree at all with your home-brew psychology. The Catholic “focus on being in a state of grace” is based on keeping one’s soul from being stained by “mortal sin” which will cause his eternal damnation.

While it is true that grace is what prevents us from eternal damnation as a result of sin, I think you may be mixing up your descriptors here. The word “stain” in the context of sin is properly applied to original sin, not mortal sin.

Notice the focus there being sin.

No, Moon. The focus is on the saving grace of God through the cleansing blood of Christ. It is true that, if we had no sin, we would not need His grace, but we do.

I will stand before the judgment seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10), but not to judge me worthy of salvation or the sins I’ve committed or commit or will commit (my salvation was gifted to me by grace through faith in Christ alone, and my sins have all been forgiven), but rather the works I’ve done in this life (1 Cor. 3:10-15).

Such a belief is a departure from what the Apostles believed and taught. Yes, salvatin is a give, given by grace, through faith. However, this gift does not change the nature of sin. Sin still separated people from God, even those who have become partakers of His Divine Nature.

Their worth will be *revealed* when tested as by fire (*figuratively* speaking for divine appraisal).

Catholics call this purgatory.

This judgment has nothing to do with sin or salvation.  My sins were *judicially* dealt with, *once for all*, through the sacrificial death of Christ on the cross.  And my salvation was divinely *gifted* to me at the time of my personal faith in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ on my behalf.

This concept of salvation is different than what the Apostles taught about salvation.

Hence, I have the right to appraise even the doctrines taught by the Catholic church as well as those taught by one I attend.  I am not a

Is that why you are here on CAF, Moon? Are you here to excercise your “right to appriaise the Catholic Church”?

My righteousness is not my own but was *reckoned* (*not infused* into my soul) to me by God at the time of my personal faith in Christ, and *imputed* being now "*in Christ*":[indent]Rom 3:22 "*...even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ* **for all those who believe**;"

The biggest problem that I see with this modern innovation is that it basically says that God “doctored the books”. Instead of Him actually making a deposit of righteousness to us, it is only declared to be so. The account (actual righteousness) is still empty. God is only pretending that it has a balance.

I am what I am strictly by the grace of God through faith in Christ alone.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

 

[guanophore]

Anathema is such a dirty word, and I’ve never felt so dirty as when I read the Council of Trent. :tsktsk:

Well, it was taken out of the Scripture. What is so “dirty” about it? Or did you feel bad because you realized that Trent was speaking to those who believe as you do?

Of course, Historical Protestantism holds that those who espouse Roman Catholic teaching are anathema according to Galatians 1:8-9 because they apparently teach a different Gospel than Paul taught.

Yes.

Also, I just noticed, as I read Galatians 1 again, that even the Apostle Paul taught that he himself could preach a different Gospel. It may be the wrong forum to ask this, but does this speak to the infalliblity of the Church? If Paul admits that he could preach error, and if popes and bishops are in succession from the Apostles, than that would mean that those who succeed the Apostles can be wrong. Therefore, the Church is not infallible.

It is a good question. Yes, probably off topic. But the promise made by Jesus that the Church would be led into all Truth applies only to those who are in unity with the Apostles. Anyone who departs from that unity has left the Church. The anathema is just a formal pronouncement that this has happened.

Anyone can fall into error, which is why the promise of infallibility does not apply to individuals. Paul knows that, at any time before His death, He too could fall away from the faith, and lose his inheritance in heaven. This is what he means when he talks about faith getting shipwrecked, not finishing the race, failing to win the prize, becoming disqualified, etc.

 

[guanophore]

In context this is speaking to the whole Gentile community. …

A very nice exegesis, thanks but entirely off my point. I asked if you did not believe that deliverance from the bondage of sin is a scriptural idea. I gave a passage as an example, and you used it to dodge my question.

The Apostles taught that salvation was deliverance from the bondage of sin in the here and now - experiential freedom from slavery to sin.

   The true believer is, in fact, "*made righteous*" being now "*in Christ*" (Rom. 5:19).

This is what the Catholic Church teaches. that is why the word “infused” is used. It is not simply a legal pronouncement of justification, though it is that, but “reckoned” means that it is actually credited, as opposed to just declared credited. We actually become the righteousness of God in Christ. In the East this is called theosis.

So yes, although the nature of sin has not changed, the position of every true believer in Christ in regards to sin and death has. He has died TO sin, with Christ, once for all, and now raised to new life (eternal) in Him (Rom. 2:2-3; Eph. 2:4-10; Col. 3:1-4). This divinely revealed truth is addressed to faith not experience.

I find myself puzzled by this statement. It seems like you are admitting that “true believers” (a distinction made nowhere in scripture) can, and do continue to sin.

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life

."[/indent]Catholicism, however, in disbelief, teaches against such confirmed knowledge and divine validation. It considers such confidence in Christ to be nothing short of brashness and gall.

No, Moon, you misunderstand Catholicism. Although it may be true that OSAS is the result of brashness and gall, these are not terms used by the Catholic Church. The sin of presumption is the one for which Jesus upbraided the Pharisees, who believed that they were children of Abraham, and would be saved because they claimed to be part of Abraham’s faith. Jesus also told his own (believing) disciples when the tower fell “and you will likewise perish, unless you repent”.

The Apostles taugth that presumption was an immature attitude.

Phil 3:13-16
13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

Paul did not consider that salvation was his own. He knew that he was to entrust his soul to a faithful creator.

it’s certainly not known to Catholics and your perceived “deposit” of faith.

All the assurances of salvation you find in scripture are written by, for, and about Catholics. There is nothing in the NT that is not Catholic…

Do you think that the once for all deposit of faith is not biblical either?

the gospel message of Jesus Christ as revealed and *preserved* in the *theopneustos* Scriptures.

The men who were moved by the Spirit to write those theopneustos Scriptures of the NT were Catholic.

.These passages speak of “saved” as an act of God and correspond with the rest of Pauline soteriology as being a gift of God, not as a result of works, by grace through faith in Christ alone.

Yes. The Apostles taught that there are some aspects of salvation that are completed in baptism, some that are worked out during this life, and some that are only completed after we depart from this life. What Calvin seemed to do was seize on those that are past, and separate them from the others. The Apostles did not do this.

And in Paul’s theology, as well as John’s and Christ’s, the “hope” of eternal life is a present possession, not a “hope so” uncertainty. Like salvation eternal life is also gifted upon personal faith in Jesus Christ - according to God’s preserved Word (Jn. 3:14-18; 5:24; Rom. 6:23; 1 Jn. 5:10-13).

Hope, as revealed by Christ, is not “hope so”. This is a mischaracterization of the Apostolic teaching on hope. On the contrary, in is a confidence in God, who is the author and finisher of our faith.

 

[guanophore]

The problem here is no personal faith in Christ is actually required, especially with infants.

No, Moon, you are purporting yet another falsehood about Catholicism. The Catholic Church does not baptize anyone without a personal expression of faith. If you are ever brave enough to actually study the Rite of Baptism this will be clear to you. In the case of infants, the adults responsible for the care of their souls speak for them. They are free to depart from the faith when they get older, if they so desire.

Men baptize and God must robotically obey and “save?”

This is like saying “men say the sinners prayer, and God must robotically obey and save?”

Salvation is something that God delights to give to people. He desires all to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. He is pleased to give us the Kingdom, and baptism by water and the HS (which the Apostles never separated) is how they taught we are born again from above.

 All  Since men "save" themselves (and others) through the act of baptism, it no wonder you'd  naturally assume men can "unsave" themselves through the act of sinning.

This statement reveals a gross misunderstanding of both the nature of salvation, and of baptism. I think it comes from a malformed idea of what happens in baptism, and the modern innovation of trying to separate the HS from the water.

Acts 2:40-41
40 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

Peter does not mean that humans can save themselves from sin. However, it is clear that people must make a choice to be saved, and willfully enter the waters of baptism to be cleansed and regenerated. This happens when the person believes in his heart, and confesses with his mouth. The HS then does what Jesus prepared, and works supernaturally upon the soul, transferring the person from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light.

And according to your theology there’ll be many “born again” people in Hell.

Yes. God, in His infinite love, gives us the freedom to walk away from Him if we so choose. This is the same freedom He gave to His angels.

Such soteriology has no substance, no divine purpose.  There's no REAL salvation here, only a potential (maybe) if you DO all the right things and DO them correctly.

Well, I am sure it seems like that to you, because you have a warped perception of the Catholic teachings. However, we understand it differently. To us,

1 Peter 1:3-6
By his great mercy we have been born anew to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and to an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God’s power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

If we walk in obedience to Him, we will arrive at our divine inheritance. If we deny Him, He will deny us.

 

[brb2]

I certainly do believe in the call to holiness and a life dedicated to good works for the believer - to the glory of Christ.

And, sorry, I am not associated with “The Brethren Reformed church.”

You should be sorry. Sorry you can’t speak up for the church you claim to know. Unable / unwilling to speak of your Christian roots. Md … it is misingenuous to continue to ‘dodge and hide’ on the church question we put to you. Could it be you can’t … because you are unchurched, still searching for a doctrine that matches your own ?

Would Paul of been so deceptive with us, if asked a similar question ?

Nevertheless, you read the IMS [Reformed Brethren] internet materials, and quote them verbatim to us, as if your own apologetic inspirations. And, then to accuse CFJ of ‘cut & paste’ tactics Throw another ‘doctored’ pitch, & no one will have any respect for such ‘Foolish’ literary efforts … unless, you be the one that authored that internet article.

Didn’t I predict that CFJ was gonna find your weak spot ?

Ok, one error made, timeout over. Md gets a fresh, clean ball, all is forgiven all participants … lets Playball.

 

[CentralFLJames]

You should be sorry. Sorry you can’t speak up for the church you claim to know. Unable / unwilling to speak of your Christian roots. Md … it is misingenuous to continue to ‘dodge and hide’ on the church question we put to you. Could it be you can’t … because you are unchurched, still searching for a doctrine that matches your own ?

Would Paul of been so deceptive with us, if asked a similar question ?

Nevertheless, you read the IMS [Reformed Brethren] internet materials, and quote them verbatim to us, as if your own apologetic inspirations. And, then to accuse CFJ of ‘cut & paste’ tactics Throw another ‘doctored’ pitch, & no one will have any respect for such ‘Foolish’ literary efforts … unless, you be the one that authored that internet article.

Didn’t I predict that CFJ was gonna find your weak spot ?

Ok, one error made, timeout over. Md gets a fresh, clean ball, all is forgiven all participants … lets Playball.

That article that MD plagiarized from was written by John Theodorou of Athens, Greece. MD does not respect that the Reformed Brethren are at the same spiritual level of enlightenment as himself rolleyes but that does not stop him from trying to steal a few bases when he thinks no one is looking. He imagines that he is no longer a “natural” man and as a spiritual man he is confident that he can float above the rules – immune to the gravity of sin.

Good ol’ fashioned hubris is what we are up against here.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

It’s easy to take a man’s writing out of context, James. You do it to the Scriptures all the time, so why not Luther, eh?

It only appears to be out of context to you since you don’t really believe in Jesus’ promises that the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church. You just can’t intellectually comprehend how that if even a single dogmatic teaching was given in error by Christ’s Church that would mean a complete victory for Satan since it would mean that evil prevailed over Divine Truth, the very Divine Body of Christ to corrupt the incorruptible.

Do you really think that God would permit the early Church to become corrupted in the first few generations and then wait for 1400 years as hell prevailed before God got around to raising up an egotistical and mentally troubled monk who could not control his own sinful life to restore His Church?

No man will ever get into heaven by not sinning. If that was the criterion then only one Man would ever enter: The Son of Man, the Man Christ Jesus. Men go to heaven because they believed the Word of God. This side of the cross it’s the Word of God concerning the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ.

So, you are now making sin a necessary prerequisite for heaven?

Mary is no man, but she got into heaven without sinning.

You are again showing faulty logic. What you say is not true since to be free of sin is by definition to be perfected in Christ; either being saved from the guilt of our sins or in the case of Mary being saved from ever committing sin in the first place.

What do you think of those men whom we presume went to heaven who did not have the opportunity to believe in Christ before they died? We know that Moses was a murderer who never knew Jesus - he only knew God the Father.

So, how do YOU account for Moses and Elijah being shown in “glorious splendor” in the transfiguration accounts (Matthew 17, Mark 9, Luke 9)? These men did not profess Jesus as Lord but were clearly being projected by God to be in some kind of Eternal and timeless state of heavenly glory (perhaps yet to be won by Christ?). How where these saved (past, present and future) ?

No man ever goes to Hell because of sins (the core of Catholic teaching). If that was the case ALL men would abide there forever, except the the Son of Man, the Man Christ Jesus. Men go to Hell because they refuse to believe God’s Word.John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."They die in their sins because they refuse to believe the Apostolic message (word) of the cross and the One whom God sent to be the propitiation for our sins.

Unbelief can be wrapped in many religious packages. Religion does not necessarily equate to faith.

No man ever goes to Hell because of sins? Absurd - this is the reason why Christ came to save us. Hello MD? You seem to be caught in some kind of intellectual trap here. So do you think Cain was given a heavenly reward for murdering Abel? Or do you think Cain went to hell for refusing to accept Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior?

James

 

[brb2]

MD … trying to steal a few bases when he thinks no one is looking. He imagines that he is no longer a “natural” man and as a spiritual man he is confident that he can float above the rules – immune to the gravity of sin.

Good ol’ fashioned hubris is what we are up against here.

We aren’t fooled so easily We have seen his pitches so often, we know what’s coming before he makes the toss. And, when we see something different … we know it’s some ‘reliever’ material.

Md … we love you Brother !!! Give up that Gnostic camouflage. Quit hiding in the shadows. Accept free agency, and come join Paul’s Team. Once you gain access to the Deposit of Faith and Church Traditions … you will become a major league apologist, and will make St. Paul proud [in the Lord] of you. He is getting tired [as are we] of you taking him out of Context.

 

[guanophore]

Speaking of Paul - he knew for sure that he could fall through pride and was fixated on that fear since he was very intellectually gifted and knew too well how easy the human intellect could rationalize away Christ and grasp again at equality of God as if a thing to be sought after. He was diligent in disciplining himself almost to the point of being paranoid about falling away before he completed the race. If Paul was so concerned about working out his salvation with fear and trembling and finishing the good race and running it to win we should also.

Although I agree with your points, James, I think this language is misleading. I don’t think that Paul was “fixated on fear”. On the contrary, he taught that perfect love casts out fear, and that we can have confidence in the author and finisher of our faith. I do agree that he had a healthy appraisal of his own weaknesses and frailties, but saying he was “to the point of being paranoid” paints him as having less than trust in God. I am sure that he, like all the Apostles, suffered his doubts, but he was not motivated by fear and paranoia.

You also correctly point out that he was aware that his gifts demanded high standards(to those whom much is given, much will be required). Paul knew that there are areas of the human heart that only God can see and judge, so he left the verdict up to God:

1 Cor 4:3-5
I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God.

He did work hard to make sure that all that was not of God was purged from himself, using spiritual disciplines and practicing piety. His training as a pharisee helped him with this.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Although I agree with your points, James, I think this language is misleading. I don’t think that Paul was “fixated on fear”. On the contrary, he taught that perfect love casts out fear, and that we can have confidence in the author and finisher of our faith. I do agree that he had a healthy appraisal of his own weaknesses and frailties, but saying he was “to the point of being paranoid” paints him as having less than trust in God. I am sure that he, like all the Apostles, suffered his doubts, but he was not motivated by fear and paranoia.

You also correctly point out that he was aware that his gifts demanded high standards(to those whom much is given, much will be required). Paul knew that there are areas of the human heart that only God can see and judge, so he left the verdict up to God:

1 Cor 4:3-5
I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God.

He did work hard to make sure that all that was not of God was purged from himself, using spiritual disciplines and practicing piety. His training as a pharisee helped him with this.

Thanks for the correction - I agree 100%. After working through 4 pages of rebuttal’s to MD’s non-apostolic teachings I was too weary to go back and proof-read before pressing “submit”. Good catch.

James

 

[guanophore]

No man will ever get into heaven by not sinning.

This may be, but no man will get into heaven sinning, either.

Men go to heaven because they believed the Word of God. This side of the cross it’s the Word of God concerning the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ.

I have heard this phrase from my Reformed brethren before. The nature of sin has not changed “this side of the cross”. Neither has the manner in which people are saved. People have always been saved by grace, through faith. The abandonment of a lifestyle of sin is part of that salvation.

No man ever goes to Hell because of sins (the core of Catholic teaching).

Actually, the core of Catholic teaching is that men can avoid hell by placing their faith in Jesus, who can save them from their sins.

I find your phrase confusing. The wages of sin is death, and this is a fundamental part of the gospel message. To say that no one goes to hell because of his sins is misleading. Those who prefer darkness rather than light will be permitted by God to have their desire fulfilled in hell.

If that was the case ALL men would abide there forever, except the the Son of Man, the Man Christ Jesus. Men go to Hell because they refuse to believe God’s Word.John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."They die in their sins because they refuse to believe the Apostolic message (word) of the cross and the One whom God sent to be the propitiation for our sins.

I agree that people cannot be saved from sins without faith in Christ. But all are destined for hell by default, because of sin, so to say that no one goes to hell because of their sins is not accurate, as your quotation from Jesus demonstrates.

Unbelief can be wrapped in many religious packages. Religion does not necessarily equate to faith.

This is quite true.

 

[brb2]

Thanks for the correction - I agree 100%. After working through 4 pages of rebuttal’s to MD’s non-apostolic teachings I was too weary to go back and proof-read before pressing “submit”. Good catch.

James

Paul was a Hard Working obsessive/compulsive. Which is good to a point, as it can foster perseverence desires / habits. Traits many Catholics hold near & dear.

To be an apologist, one must have no small measure of O/C tendencies. We must be right on the truth / facts. At least on the key points of salvation theology. We cannot rest, until our minds are settled about the key gospel teachings.

 

[guanophore]

Truthfully, I won’t be held accountable.

You will still render an account. It will be heard on the basis of your identity in Christ, but that does not absolve a person from giving an account.

Nowhere is it taught that sins are divinely forgiven by confessing them.

Perhaps you can help me understand where your statement fits together with the scripture?

1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Sins have always been dealt with judicially through blood sacrifice. … It’s by this faith that God saves/justifies the believing sinner.

For some reason you think that this is separate from a confession, but this is not shown to be the case, in the OT or the NT. Both things are true.

There’s only one place in Scripture that only seems to indicate forgiveness of sins via confession: 1 Jn. 1:9. But in context John is combating Gnostic teaching that was infiltrating the church during his day. The Gnostic denied even the existence of sin. The Greek word translated “confess” is omologômen which means “to acknowledge.” The “we” in vss. eight through ten is not addressing the believer but those leaning toward the Gnostic heresy:“If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us,”

I will agree that this passage is a response to Gnosticism, but to say it is not directed to believers is not consistent with the context. Confession is good for the soul, and that is why God commands us to do it. God knows what we need to be healed.

"If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."Obviously he’s not addressing the believer since the truth of the word is not in those who say such things.

I think if you look at the salutation of the letter, Moon, it will be clear that he is addressing believers. It seems that our Reformed brethren will go to great lengths to avoid the confessional.

No one ever became a true believer in Christ by denying the reality of sin and his own sinful state.

Although there is no distinction in scripture for your characterization of “true believer”, I do agree with this statement. Confession is being in agreement with God about our spiritual state.

It was, in fact, the conviction and acknowledgment of one’s sinful state that caused him to turn from unbelief to belief in Christ and receive the forgiveness of sins, according to the Apostolic message cited above.

Yes, and this conversion, or repentance, is also a turning away from sin, toward works that befit repentance. The Apostles taught that these are not separated from one another. When one comes to faith, one abandons the “works of darkness” and engages in “works of righteousness” which God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

In an evangelistic appeal to the Gnostic John writes:1 John 1:9 "If we confess (acknowledge) our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness."Sins are divinely forgiven, once for all, and the sinner cleansed of all unrighteousness, when he turns from unbelief to belief in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ on his behalf.

I do not understand how this statement is consistent with the one you made above, where you say that people are not divinely forgiven in such a confession.

Can you show me, James, where it’s recorded that men lined up before the Apostles to “confess” their sins in order to have them forgiven?

Actually, confession in the early church took place aloud in the community. Saints were called to account in front of the assembly. The activity of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts is an example of this. Private confession did not develop until later.

It would certainly be a recorded common occurrence in the Scriptures if *perpetual confession* was the divine method for having sins forgiven.  But, alas, the Scriptures support none of this.

I think the only thing that is “perpetual” about this type of confession is that the sinner makes an act of contrition and espouses the Lord’s command to “go, and sin no more”.

Oral confession of sin is the pattern established by God that accompanies repentance. Making restitution/amends, what Catholics call “penance” is also established by God:

Num 5:6-9
When a man or woman commits any of the sins that men commit by breaking faith with the LORD, and that person is guilty, 7 he shall confess his sin which he has committed; and he shall make full restitution for his wrong, adding a fifth to it, and giving it to him to whom he did the wrong. 8 But if the man has no kinsman to whom restitution may be made for the wrong, the restitution for wrong shall go to the LORD for the priest, in addition to the ram of atonement with which atonement is made for him.

We see this pattern throughout the OT

Dan 9:20-21

20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy hill of my God; 21 while I was speaking in prayer…

This is an auricular confession.

Matt 3:5-6
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan, 6 and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

How do you imagine anyone knew of these confessions, that this be recorded, if they were not spoken aloud?

Acts 19:18
18 Many also of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their practices.

“Divulging” means making another aware of something. This is the pattern of repentance and confession.

According to divine revelation sins are forever forgiven through believing, not confessing.

Both things are true, and are two sides of the same coin, just as faith and works are. The Apostles never separated them. They were not separated until the Reformers saw fit to do so, 1500 years after Christ established His church.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Truthfully, I won’t be held accountable. You say this only because you don’t believe the Apostolic message concerning Christ:Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”

Col 1:14 “…in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.”

MD, you speak in part from ignorance and in part from a proud and obstinate heart that seems predisposed and committed to oppose apostolic instruction. The most essential thing necessary for eternal beatitude is CHARITY – Love of God and Love of Neighbor. The verses you cite refer to Christian access to the forgiveness of sins for those who have a developed and mature faith. But contrary to your assumptions the mechanism for forgiveness IS NOT automatic as a fringe-benefit for being a professed “Christian”. NO ONE, Christian, heathen, heretic, pagan etc. has a license to sin – ever. The moral conscience will convict. But even sins forgiven by perfect contrition or normatively by the sacrament of apostolic confession ALWAYS HAVE AN ETERNAL CONSEQUENCE. The greatest consequence of course is that Christ had to die for us. But our sins also effected other souls as well – no sin is EVER committed in a vacuum. This is what the 2nd judgment is all about (seeing the chain of cause and effect all through time of every good or evil deed).
I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render an account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned" (Mt. 12:36-37).

The lives of all of us are to be revealed before the tribunal of Christ so that each one may receive his recompense, good or evil, according to his life in the body." (2 Cor. 5:10)

The 2nd Judgement:
“Nothing is covered up that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known” (Lk. 12:2).
*

Forgiveness of sins DOES NOT always exempt us from taking with us certain consequences for our sins. This is what purgatory is all about for those who have not adequately repented and done penance. People’s exercise of the gift of free will given by God is what establishes the outcome of their eternity.

Above all else - without charity nothing can be acceptable to God, nor does anything profit unto eternal life in the absence of charity. A person who professes “Jesus is Lord” with his lips but is committed to holding his neighbor in contempt or who refuses to respond to God’s grace and not repent and stop all grave sin is choosing to go to the only place where hatred is tolerated – to hell for not loving God or neighbor.

I invite you to read the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas on his question 99: Question 99. God’s mercy and justice towards the damned

newadvent.org/summa/5099.htm

NO so called Christian who sins gravely will escape hell unless he repents, confesses his sins and is forgiven (e.g. sacramentally or via perfect contrition) or in the final pangs of death is able to overcome his sinful resentment of God to respond to His final Divine Mercy (which the hardened sinner will instinctively desire to resist).

You MUST come to understand that the very nature of sin clouds reason, rationalizes and gives false illusions of righteousness and causes on to supernaturally HATE God even if imagining one is “good”. It is only because we all live in a sea of God’s actual grace (won on the cross) that any of us fallen humans can even be somewhat civil to each other. In death – actual grace goes away and the soul with or without sanctifying grace (as it has acquired or lost) must stand on its own merits. A soul with no sanctifying grace WILL and MUST CONDEMN ITSELF since it hates God and envies God and chooses to be separate from God – it has gone the same way that Satan has.

God knows the full reach in time of every man’s good-deeds and sins (forgiven or not). There have been effects produced that will have gone beyond the lives of each soul, effects for which each person is in some way responsible. All the good and evil done by each individual will be revealed to the whole of mankind at the 2nd judgment.

At death our outcome is fixed. We Can not undo our choices anymore so than God can change His nature to deprecate our humanity by removing our freewill from our choices. A soul’s life long choices are irrevocable – even though sins are forgivable. This non-reversal of a soul’s decision is not arising from God, but from the soul’s own choice. But the good news is God is in control of Divine Destiny and the most evil persons on the planet all combined can not change one whit of the greater good that is end objective of God’s Plan.

Ecclesiastes 11:3 Whether a tree falls to the south or to the north, in the place where it falls, there will it lie.

So, MD, I am here to tell you that you are WRONG. Your entire life will be put under the all-seeing spotlight of God’s juridical review. Every single farthing of debt and reward that YOU have accumulated will be settled by God.

[continued]

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

[from above]

EVERY single act good or bad, every missed opportunity, squandered grace, calumny, sloth, idle boast, false teaching, failure to forgive, self-abuse, selfish desire, good deed etc. will be judged and assessed by God. God will infallibly judge what it was that you most valued and what you wanted for your eternity based on how you spent your exceedingly precious gift of life. Not only that but ALL of Creation will know (and the 2nd judgment) every of your sins – both forgiven and unforgiven. For the elect though, this will bring no shame and a greater glory as the saved souls contemplate God’s unfathomable Divine Mercy. For those who have been forgiven much and had their shame nullified will have ever more to be thankful to God for – joy will be intensified for the elect just as suffering will be intensified for the damned.

If a man does* not abide in Me**, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. . .(Jn. 15:6).

You must be holy as I am holy (Lev. 20:26).*

MD - one must abide in Christ – not just profess Christ. And to abide in Christ means we must shun sin and strive to stay in His good grace – free from sin and overcome the lustful appetites and gravity toward sin. The focus is on love of God and holiness to please God. We are here to overcome and we MUST through The Lord’s grace overcome all attachments to the created things of “this world”. As well we must overcome the selfish habits that the soul will carry with it into the next life since these are completely incompatible with a whole hearted, uncompromising love for God. One must love Creator over creature and one must strive to love God for Himself and His goodness rather than out fear of His just punishments.

God’s infinite goodness permits great evil to exist in the world only because the magnitude of His goodness completely and utterly eclipses the furthest reach of the highest evil. Our fallen human nature is inclined toward evil and God has told us: (Isaiah 55:9) For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts. And for this reason the eternal offense to God for even the smallest of sins is so insulting to God for Him to see His created creatures that are destined to glory to stoop and embrace such lowly and vile temporal “trinkets” while not seeking to gain the eternal gifts and graces that He offers through the path of holiness. The angels in heaven would elect to endure the worst sufferings on earth for the opportunities that God has made available to us to grow in holiness and grace and would rather die than sin in the least and offend God. We are saved if we elect to be so – but we can not say we are on the pathway to salvation until we stop sinning, repent, confess, do penance and stop feeding our desires to sin gravely. We must live the gospel as well as preach it.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Men aren’t saved by “repenting of sins” and “performing perfect acts of contrition.” According to the Apostolic message men are “saved by grace through faith” (Eph. 2:8-9). Why? Because Christ really did accomplish and finish the work of redemption, reconciliation and propitiation on that cross. And His work is applied to the sinner, in full, at the time of faith in Him.

MD, nor are men saved by spreading false teachings of other men. But you keep spreading this sort of modern reformed theology that no apostle if he were alive would for the greater portion recognize as Christian.

You have 3 fatal errors here:

1. That repentance is not necessary.
2. The Christ “did it all” and we are required to do nothing more than just say “I believe”.
3. That eternal salvation is a done deal in the instant one makes their “altar call”.

This is extremely unbiblical and un-Christian teaching. I will only prove the first assumption of yours is wrong since the rest of it is mute unless you can get this error corrected.

The most fundamental message we get in the bible is the absolute necessity for repentance. God sent a prophet into the world to prepare The Lord’s way JUST to teach this one single thing – “REPENT for the Kingdom of God is at hand”. It is the VERY FIRST Christian message from John The Baptist and From Christ himself. There are at least 75 Bible verses talking about repentance!

MD, you are a perfect example of this strange time and place where misdirected souls imagine that God as well as every good Christian MUST automatically forgive one whether the offender seeks forgiveness or not. This is a perversion of the gospel message. This idea comes to us from the depraved minds of The Reformers and sadly even some liberal Catholics. This is a philosophy that invites the mocking of God’s mercy and mocks Christian virtue – and even perverts charity. This kind of error now pervades every aspect of our society that imagines wrongly (just as you do) that all trespasses against God are automatically forgiven irrespective of a transgressor’s sorrow or desire to be forgiven of offense and amend their behaviors.

Genuine ignorance mitigates sin but God does NOT automatically forgive us unless we REPENT and sincerely seek forgiveness. If it was auto-forgiveness as you wrongly imagine then there would be no reason not to turn away from sin and we’d be right back to a variation on a Christian-heathen mindset thinking “eat, drink & be merry for tomorrow we die (and go to heaven because Jesus ‘did it all’ and God MUST forgive)”. But this is a false teaching. God is not mocked nor does God expect us to always unconditionally forgive others either – but we must if one genuinely asks for forgiveness. We are of course at liberty to let people walk all over our backs and unconditionally forgive everyone we desire even if they mock our good intentions. But God is not – even though Jesus let that happen for the work of the cross. But now we are all called to repent. Here’s the proof:
Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him

Ezek 14:6 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Repent! Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices!

Mathew 21:32 And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him

Mathew 11:20 Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent

Rev 16:9 They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.

Mathew 4:17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near

Luke 13:3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

Mark 1:15 The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!

Luke 17:4 If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him

Mark 6:12 They [the 12 apostles] went out and preached that people should repent

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

Acts 26:20 and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

Mathew 3:2 Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord.

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
*

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

That may be for those who have not believed the word of the cross, it being foolishness to them. But it’s already been revealed in Scripture what will happen when I stand before Him in all His glory:Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood {men} from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. "You have made them {to be} a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."I love to sing songs that are theologically correct, and this one will be my favorite for all eternity. You see, James, Christ took my sins and my judgment 2000 years ago and died in my stead. In return I was gifted His righteousness.

The men from every tribe and tongue and people refers to the Catholic Church MD. This is one of our most revered descriptions of the Catholic Church:

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

You were not gifted a license to sin nor were you given an exception to the requirement to repent MD.

The judgment seat of Christ described in 1 Cor. 3:10-15 is for the “saved” only. There’s no judgment of salvation worthiness delineated there, James. The believer’s worthiness is in Christ and Christ alone.

EVERY soul will be judged MD – saved and damned. The believer who continues to “ABIDE” in Christ from the moment they are baptized through death spiritually dies in Christ and so can never die again but it risen again in Christ since we are part of Christ (through Him with Him in Him). But you need to understand that our worthiness is OUR OWN since Christ infuses his justification into us at baptism and forgives us of our sins and also grants us God’s divinizing grace as a gift for our obedience and faith in him – that is ours to keep for eternity. It is up to us to continue to abide in Christ - so we may remain worthy.

I think the Apostolic message concerning belief, sin and forgiveness is VERY clear in the Acts passages cited above.

Nowhere is it taught that sins are divinely forgiven by confessing them. Sins have always been dealt with judicially through blood sacrifice.

You must not read your bible with comprehension if you say this MD. Here is it is right here:

*John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed

Luke 5:23 Which is easier: to say ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say ‘Get up and walk’
*

For an apostle to forgive sins clearly one must confess these sins. The phrase “one another” certainly includes the priest (“elders”). There was a common idiom of the time that equated sickness with sin and we see it in James as well as Luke’s account of Jesus forgiving sin in the context of healing. It used to be the case that sins were publicly confessed but this lead to some embarrassment and abuses in the early church – especially with the woman who held back their sins out of shame and to prevent other scandals. So the Church wisely went to private confessions.

We see it clearly in the history of the church writings:

*In church confess your sins, and do not come to your prayer with a guilt conscience. Such is the Way of Life…On the Lord’s own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks; but first confess your sins, so that your sacrifice may be pure." Didache, 4:14,14:1 (c. A.D. 90).

“Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness[of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop.” Ignatius, Epistle to the Smyraeans, 9 (c. A.D. 110).

“Moreover, that this Marcus compounds philters and love-potions, in order to insult the persons of some of these women, if not of all, those of them who have returned to the Church of God–a thing which frequently occurs–have acknowledged, confessing, too, that they have been defiled by him, and that they were filled with a burning passion towards him. A sad example of this occurred in the case of a certain Asiatic, one of our deacons, who had received him (Marcus) into his house. His wife, a woman of remarkable beauty, fell a victim both in mind and body to this magician, and, for a long time, travelled about with him. At last, when, with no small difficulty, the brethren had converted her, she spent her whole time in the exercise of public confession, weeping over and lamenting the defilement which she had received from this magician.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:13 (A.D. 180). *

But you have seen all this a thousand times here MD – so when are you going to take it to heart?

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

]
Can you show me, James, where it’s recorded that men lined up before the Apostles to “confess” their sins in order to have them forgiven? It would certainly be a recorded common occurrence in the Scriptures if perpetual confession was the divine method for having sins forgiven. But, alas, the Scriptures support none of this.

According to divine revelation sins are forever forgiven through believing, not confessing.

You misinterpret divine revelation MD. You needn’t do this since Catholics have know for 2,000 years what the apostles REALLY DID and what they really taught. Why try to back-engineer what happened by reading bits and pieces of the bible and trying to piece it all together and re-invent the wheel from scratch when it’s all been known? Would you take your car to an auto-mechanic for repairs if he was self-taught and consulted the user manual for each new problem he had to fix? Would you go to a heart surgeon for open heart surgery if that surgeon never was taught by anyone who ever did one and all he has is a college book on the “gist” of how to perform an open heart surgery? I hope not. So why would you trust yourself to know what the apostles actually taught by trying to use the bible as a “how to” book when that was not what it was written for. Paranoia and suspicion about Christianity’s traditional Catholic teaching is a recent phenomena that came out of the suspicious minds of the reformers. These men were clueless about church history and practice yet in their brashness they felt they had more knowledge of the early Church than did the Church itself!

Here are your references:

*All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation" (2 Cor. 5:18).

Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:22–23).*

Having the power to forgive and to retain sins implies that the apostle knows what a person’s sins are, which in turn implies oral confession. Otherwise, how is the apostle to know what to retain or forgive?

Here is more:
Acts 19:18 Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds.

Matthew 3:6 Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him [John the Baptism as part of repentance] in the Jordan River.

Mark 1:5 The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

Note that John’s Baptism did not actually forgive sins since he did not have that spiritual authority since Christ had not yet risen but this sets the standard for confessing sins as part of repentance and prefigures Christian baptism.

1 Tim 6:12 Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Historical precedence for the necessity to confess sins

Num 5:7 [the transgressor] must confess the sin he has committed. He must make full restitution for his wrong, add one fifth to it and give it all to the person he has wronged.

1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17

Note: This verse implies that there is some other means other than prayer for forgiving the more grave sins that “lead to death” - this is the ministry of reconcilliation.
I can give you the patristics too that prove it out - but something tells me anything we say here is going to be ignored or rationalized away…

James

 

[brb2]

CFJ …

WoW … you are Orthodox to the Max.

A question for you … since you brought it up. The idea that ALL sins have consequences.

The Early Church believed that baptism removed ALL sin … and some even wrongly delayed their baptisms unto their last hours. That is a risky proposition.

I’ve always read sciptures to teach that initial justification brings a singular purity. If one dies then … there is no further judgment for that individual. But, you imply that post-baptismal sins fit in a different category … unless perhaps martyrdom purges them absolutely.

One wants to believe that the elect are immune from further judgment, if they abide in Christ til their end. For example, do any of us really think the Apostles had to undergo purgation in the next world ? I doubt it.

I think we believe they faithfully abided and had no need of purgation. In otherwords, if one bears their cross, and abides in Christ … they are constantly undergoing earthly purging from the trials of life.

Father Corapi says it this way… “You can pay me now, or pay me later”. That sounds errant to me. It takes LOVE out of the equation. God desires our obedience … not our pound of flesh [pain]. Christ loved Lazarus and Mary Magdeline too much to exact any penalty from those whom he called friends. I think Christ wouldn’t term it like Father C does. I can see how OSAS has such a powerful attraction to Protestant converts … and why they don’t want to give it up. Agape Love is eternal … right ? Even more powerful than parental love … which is what we use as our point of reference.

 

[CentralFLJames]

CFJ …

WoW … you are Orthodox to the Max.

A question for you … since you brought it up. The idea that ALL sins have consequences.

The Early Church believed that baptism removed ALL sin … and some even wrongly delayed their baptisms unto their last hours. That is a risky proposition.

I’ve always read sciptures to teach that initial justification brings a singular purity. If one dies then … there is no further judgment for that individual. But, you imply that post-baptismal sins fit in a different category … unless perhaps martyrdom purges them absolutely.

One wants to believe that the elect are immune from further judgment, if they abide in Christ til their end. For example, do any of us really think the Apostles had to undergo purgation in the next world ? I doubt it.

I think we believe they faithfully abided and had no need of purgation. In otherwords, if one bears their cross, and abides in Christ … they are constantly undergoing earthly purging from the trials of life.

Father Corapi says it this way… “You can pay me now, or pay me later”. That sounds errant to me. It takes LOVE out of the equation. God desires our obedience … not our pound of flesh [pain]. Christ loved Lazarus and Mary Magdeline too much to exact any penalty from those whom he called friends. I think Christ wouldn’t term it like Father C does. I can see how OSAS has such a powerful attraction to Protestant converts … and why they don’t want to give it up. Agape Love is eternal … right ? Even more powerful than parental love … which is what we use as our point of reference.

Sin is sin - post-baptismal sin only differs from pre-baptismal sin in the increased degree of culpability for transgressions since a baptised Christian who is taught the Divine Truths and has the new baptismal grace and spiritual gifts is now held to a higher standard of expectation (“to much that is given much expected”). But to some degree it is mute since without baptism a person would likely go to hell anyway just due to original sin and by the cascading effects of unforgiven sin that will build up and conspire to invite progressively more grave sin.

But you hit on a thing that I have regained an focus on through this vignette we are currently on with MD. That is “LOVE”. LOVE trumps ALL - even faith. This is why sola fide is so utterly wrong headed as well as wrong hearted. Here see for yourself:

And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing (1 Cor. 13:1-3).

Love is powerful stuff - its the essence of God and the person who is full of real supernatural love (that is Charity) will cover over many sins. We Catholics utterly reject the strange Protestant doctrines of double-predestiny where God creates some just to damn them to hell. NO! God is a LOVER of souls and wants them ALL to choose Him and be with Him in eternity. But Catholics are just fine with the idea of God favoring some over others and predestining some to grace as well as glory (through the grace of final perseverance). Mary was of this estate. And I believe that I have encountered a few of these kinds of blessed souls - they ooze love and are just full of God’s grace and are not always necessarily overtly religious and are often fairly naive, innocent and even pollyannish in their lack of sophistication but created creatures absolutely committed to love - if not angels appearing as humans.

This is an aside but I have often pondered over the question if Mary and Jesus (since He had a human soul) were subject to “the judgement” after they died? And I tend to think so (at least in Mary’s case). But I think it was more of a “welcome home” sort of thing or just a transitional state where the unbound soul full of grace escapes the gravity of sin and simply ascends to heaven by the lift of that grace while being escorted by one’s guardian angel (at the very least).

I do believe that all souls are judged - even those who are newly baptised and without sin. We tend to think of judgement has harsh but - not so for God’s elect. This is a judgement for REWARD! This is when God crowns the elect and honors him with his heavenly reward fitting for his merits in heaven. Judgement is only difficult for those who are hardened in sin and God grants leave of those souls who choose to be cursed in hell and were too hardened to respond to a final opportunity to appeal to Divine Mercy in the moments right at death. These souls get assigned their “punishment” to precise degree for the gravity of their unforgiven grave sins. Others deemed worthy of heaven but still needing purgation of forgiven sin are given a purgatory mercy.

We must not forget too that the Catholic Church grants to all her members a final last indulgence at death for accepting the pangs of death as “a just punishment” for our original sin and is assumed to be attached empathetically to Christ’s suffering as our final sufferage of our sanctification and “dieing in Christ”. Not to mention that most Catholics who are accustomed to prayer will also have all the “pray for me at the hour of my death” prayers to Mary and the other saints being poured out to us (and as well all the future prayers of every friend who will pray for us in life at our funeral mass and memorial prayers) applied in our hour of need. And if we have not prayed and have not many friends then St. Faustina has revealed also that Jesus is right there offering The Divine Mercy as a final opportunity for forgivness and those not too hardened in sin to reflexively recoil from him may be granted forgivness with the slightest assent to yield to His mercy. The deck is HUGELY stacked in favor of Catholics - and we should never forget the sacramental efficacy of last rights either.

Bottom line - I think it safe to say that even the highest saints were judged. But again, even if every life sin is forgiven there is still the consequences of those choices that will propagate forward till the end of time. The good news is we know a greater good MUST come out of God’s Plan and not a single sin of any person on the planet can change the objective good that God is moving history toward. But the consequences of the choice to sin (even after being forgiven) will cause others or the material world to suffer in time. This is what gives rise to such things as asking God “why did God let that innocent child suffer such a terrible birth disease at such an early age”. We are all linked by our humanity and charity in sharing sufferage as well as in God’s Glory is what makes God’s people.

James