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nuntym
Guest
Who told you that?
How does a Catholic increase the chance of getting into Heaven?
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brb2
Guest
Take up my challenge … and you will see
And, by the way … where is the word “Faith ALONE” used in your Protestant [Catholic] Bible in conjunction with Salvation ?
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brb2
Guest
And, does yours include book of James ? verse 2:26
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.... "faith apart from works is dead. " ///// Thanks for confirming the Catholic teaching
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guanophore
Guest
Do you imagine, that when “all of Judea” came out to be baptized, there was no line?
Do you think that, because there is no line at the latrine mentioned, that nobody ever had to go? Confession of sins was part of the covenant that God made with His people. He did not undo the Law, but fulfilled it.
The Apostles did not separate confession from an act of faith. These did not become separated until the Reformation.
Yes, and part of that gospel of forgiveness of sins is "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive them. This should not be separated from the proclamation.
This passage is commonly misapplied to excuse the nature and effects of sin on the believer. IN fact, the Love of Christ is so deep that He will watch us walk right through the gates of Hell. This is the freedom HIs love grants to us. He loves us enough to allow us to walk away from Him. The fact that our sins do not separate us from His love is irrelevant. We are still separated from eternal life with Him. We are His creation, and He came to die for us because He loves us (while we were yet sinners). In His love, He allows us to remain sinners, refusing to accept His sacrifice for our sins.
This is a good summary of the Calvanist Mythology (speaking of faith’s born of the imagination of men). There is no category in Scripture for a “true believer” as you are fond of inventing yourself.
Sin has no more power over the one who is “in Christ”. However, the nature of sin does not change upon the death of Christ. Sin still separates people from God. Those who continue in sin are not “in Christ”, as those who are “in Christ” follow His commandments. Again you are confusing God’s immutable love for us with eternal life. Sin does separate us from God. He still loves us, even while we are yet sinners, but we are not in right relationship with Him when we are in sin.
Indeed, and that faith that gives eternal life is faith that acts, faith that obeys, faith that abides with love and hope. Narrow is the road that leads to life, and one can easily stray from it and be on the road to death once more.
You will say that this passage:
Gal 5:19-22
19 Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Is not addressed to “true believers”, whereas, those of us who have received the faith from the Apostles know that it is addressed to those who have been sealed by the HS.
You will say that your fictional category of “true” believers do not engage in any of these behaviors, but the Apostles taught that saved men can, and do sin, and that such sins separate them from Christ.
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guanophore
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Not even your understanding…
Catholics “added” the entire NT to Sacred Scripture. They also added their preaching of the gospel, salvation is by grace, through faith. It is the gift of God, not of ourselves, lest any man boast.
I agree that God’s grace is a mystery and a stumbling block to men. However, your contrivance of Catholic belief as “God must see something good to merit salvation” is contrary to what the Catholic church believes and teaches. On the contrary, it is the fact that he made purification for our sins on the cross that enables us to participate in this purification. Had He not offered His blood to cover our sins, we would never have the advantage of Purgatory, which we are afforded by His grace. In this purification, all that is dross is burned away, and we are made fit for dwelling with Him in eternity. No snow covered dunghills, but creatures made in His image and likeness, to declare His glory.
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guanophore
Guest
They are two inseparable sides of the same coin, Moon. If we are under His grace, then we will not continue in sin. Sin separates people from God, and causes death. Although it is true that avoidance of sin does not cause salvation, one who falls from grace can still be separated from that salvation by sin.
It is similar to the way a bullet works. A bullet cannot bring life to a person, but a bullet can certainly be the cause of losing one’s life.
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guanophore
Guest
Don’t be discouraged by that, James. There are many folks reading these threads, sometimes ten times more than the ones posting, and they will benefit from your postings. MD is articulating very common heresies, so it is beneficial to have them refuted here, even if they are of no ultimate benefit to MD. When it comes to cases of intractible resistance such as this, prayer is all that will work. He claims to his errant ideas of what the Catholic Church believes and teaches, and insists that these fantasies are reality. No amount of logic can change such things, but only, as he has correctly pointed out, the revelation of God.
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paul_c
Guest
Moondweller, The Apostolic message was to love God and to love each other. This is clear throughout the new testament. Paul summarizes this in 1Corinthians 13:
1 If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated,
5 it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,
6 it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.
7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.
9 For we know partially and we prophesy partially,
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
11 When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
12 At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
13 So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated,
5 it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,
6 it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.
7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.
9 For we know partially and we prophesy partially,
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
11 When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
12 At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
13 So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
No, Moondweller, James just reiterates in chapter 2 what paul said above in 1Corinthians 13: here is what James 2 says:
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead
to be continued
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paul_c
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I’m sorry Moodweller, but you are wrong here. Move up to Romans 2: 5-16 and you will see what Paul says about sin separating man from God:
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.
11 There is no partiality with God.
12 All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.
Jesus actually said more than that about those that hear him didn’t he: here’s what Matthew recorded in 7: 21-27:
21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’
24 “Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock.
25 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on rock.
26 And everyone who listens to these words of mine but does not act on them will be like a fool who built his house on sand.
27 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. And it collapsed and was completely ruined.”
You see Moondweller, there is ample scriptural evidence that Jesus expects acts of love from those that will be saved. It is the Devil, acting through men that propagates the philosophy that all you need to do is believe and you will be saved. But God, who is love, requires love from those that will join him in heaven. Faith alone is not enough. And lets be clear, love must be based on faith. But Love is still the fundamental requirement.
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paul_c
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Indeed, this is what John says in 1 john 2: 1-11
1 My children, I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one.
2 He is expiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but for those of the whole world.
3 The way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his command ments.
4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps his word, the love of God is truly perfected in him. This is the way we may know that we are in union with him:
6 whoever claims to abide in him ought to live (just) as he lived.
7 Beloved, I am writing no new commandment to you but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard.
8 And yet I do write a new commandment to you, which holds true in him and among you, for the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.
9 Whoever says he is in the light, yet hates his brother, is still in the darkness.
10 Whoever loves his brother remains in the light, and there is nothing in him to cause a fall.
11 Whoever hates his brother is in darkness; he walks in darkness and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
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nuntym
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brother!!MD, Tanner, Mick Taylor and others, do you know why we Catholics are so, as you say, focused on sin? It is because we know sin is the most cruel thing anyone can do to God. Sin hurts God so much that we talk time and again, and read, and meditate, and put it in our minds all the time, all the ways we can and have hurt the Lord so we can avoid them and acquire the grace to do that and do effective penance through grace in reparation; and at the same time ask for the grace by prayers, by supplications, by reading, by talking, by posting here at CAF and other websites, by fasting, etc. to know and do what pleases Him the most.
Because we LOVE Him!
All this talking about “Jesus payed the price of sin of mankind once for all, so let’s not talk about sin anymore,” or (even worse) “Jesus payed the price of sin of mankind once for all, so my sins do not matter anymore” is something repugnant for us Catholics and rouses something fierce in us—as you can see how we can never seem to leave this topic alone. The thing is, we Catholics all know that the redemptive act of Jesus’ crucifixion is efficacious once and for all until eternity. But we also know that everytime we sin, it is as if we crucify the Lord again and again and again with the hurt we give Him! We cannot help but feel horror at someone who belittles sin.
Do you want to know how we view sin? Leo J. Trese in The Faith Explained says, “A sin is a refusal to give God our obedience, a refusal to give our love.” He then says, “In all creation there is no evil so great as venial sin, excepting only mortal sin.”
In other words, we think of those who think little of sin as those people who love God little.
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nuntym
Guest
I forgot to mention about confession and asking forgiveness from God :imsorry:
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Tanner9188
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Here is your misunderstanding:
John 1 - “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God;”
Focus on the message; not the messengers. The message is the Gospel of Grace; the good news of grace, which is the person of Christ. Emphasis is in faith and grace because this is the prerequisite for the rest. MD knows exactly what to emphasize; given the audience. Christ is not the messenger in the sense that He is the message.
Listen to Peter: “for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, {that is,} through the living and enduring word of God.”
God bless and hope you get your thought in order.
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Tanner9188
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Hello Nun,
MD, Tanner, Mick Taylor and others, do you know why we Catholics are so, as you say, focused on sin? It is because we know sin is the most cruel thing anyone can do to God. Sin hurts God so much that we talk time and again, and read, and meditate, and put it in our minds all the time, all the ways we can and have hurt the Lord so we can avoid them and acquire the grace to do that and do effective penance through grace in reparation; and at the same time ask for the grace by prayers, by supplications, by reading, by talking, by posting here at CAF and other websites, by fasting, etc. to know and do what pleases Him the most.
Because we LOVE Him!
All this talking about “Jesus payed the price of sin of mankind once for all, so let’s not talk about sin anymore,” or (even worse) “Jesus payed the price of sin of mankind once for all, so my sins do not matter anymore” is something repugnant for us Catholics and rouses something fierce in us—as you can see how we can never seem to leave this topic alone. The thing is, we Catholics all know that the redemptive act of Jesus’ crucifixion is efficacious once and for all until eternity. But we also know that everytime we sin, it is as if we crucify the Lord again and again and again with the hurt we give Him! We cannot help but feel horror at someone who belittles sin.
Do you want to know how we view sin? Leo J. Trese in The Faith Explained says, “A sin is a refusal to give God our obedience, a refusal to give our love.” He then says, “In all creation there is no evil so great as venial sin, excepting only mortal sin.”
In other words, we think of those who think little of sin as those people who love God little.
I glad you brought up the issue of sin. This is the very starting point on the path to reconciliation with God…would you agree? I hope so. Something I have noticed throughout CAF is that no one seems to have dealt with the sin issue on Gods terms, but rather their own terms.
As you seem to emphasize; it is very important and without first dealing with your sin issue Gods way, then the rest is mute because you will not receive the Holy Spirit. Perhaps you might agree the Publican in Luke 18 is a model of someone dealing with the sin issue.
I was hoping you might consider giving your testimony and how you dealt with your sin as an example to others who may read this; especially among the Catholic brethren.
Thank you and God bless you for bringing this up.
Tanner
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paul_c
Guest
Tanner, it starts with love. If you love God, you will want to do his will. When you fail to do this and sin, you will be contrite about your sin, confess it to the priest that is Jesus’ ordained representative, do penance, and repent of it, avoiding sin in the future. You will do this because of your love of God.
You see, this is fundamental to the Catholic view of Salvation. We are put into the state of Grace through Baptism. This sacrament washes away our sin and establishes us as part of God’s One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. We stay in the state of Grace only as long as we do Gods will, which is to love him and each other. If we fall from Grace, God in his infinite mercy, allows us to be reconciled through the sacrament of reconciliation, which is a real and visible humbling of ourselves to God. We thus can return to the state of Grace. If we die in the state of Grace, we will be embraced by God in heaven.
Its all about Love. Love of God for Man and love of the elect for God and his neighbor. As Saint Paul has said, if you have faith enough to move mountains,but don’t have love, you are nothing. And this is the great loss of Protestantism. They focus on Faith but deny the importance of Love (which is an action word).
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Tanner9188
Guest
The topic is saving grace here; it is imputed 100% at the time a believer truly believes in their heart; whereas you are taught that it is “infused” a little at a time as you go through the Sacraments and other rituals that are not based on Biblical authority.
It is a fatal flaw because it is an attack on Scripture because it denies the complete and effectual atonement accomplished on the cross. Another gospel.
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Thing
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Is what you have said a different gospel to the one Christianity has continuously taught for the past 2000 years?
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nuntym
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:clapping: You should read this Tanner.
I, and all Catholics I would think, totally agree.
Now this is interesting. How does one deal with the “sin issue” on God’s terms?
Correct.
If this is so, then every Catholic who sincerely participates in the Roman Rite Holy Mass is a good model of someone dealing with the sin issue, for we say at the beginning of each Mass, with the beating of our breasts
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I confess to almighty God,
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do;
and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.
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O my God,
I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee,
and I detest all my sins
because I dread the loss of heaven
and the pains of hell,
but most of all because they offend Thee, my God,
Who are all good and deserving of all my love.
I firmly resolve with the help of Thy grace
to confess my sins, to do penance,
and to amend my life.
Amen.I still deal with my sins everyday, Tanner. Everyone still does, without exemption, until we leave for the other side. Even you, Tanner. We have a saying: Even a Saint sins at least seven times a day.
Tanner, I ask you, how do you think of sin? Do you yourself still sin now? Aren’t you horrified when you do?
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CentralFLJames
Guest
You are not qualified to be teaching the Catholic faith so please stop teaching a thing you don’t know what you are talking about and creating strawman arguments. The Church does not teach that “grace is infused a little at a time”. What the Church teaches is that God gives us all the grace sufficient for our salvation at baptism and that it begins to transform us over our entire lives in the same way Jesus described the growing vine and the tree that bears good fruit. It’s not a “quantitative” argument it is a sufficiency argument and a recognition of how God NORMALLY prefers to do His work in us. Growing in grace means to be progressively more cooperative with grace and letting God increase our spiritual capacity in proportion to our ability to receive it and to cooperate with it. This same principal in seen in Paul’s writings where he mentions those who are not yet ready for adult food and are still eating infants food. This refers to maturing in the faith and spiritually growing and is harmonious with a concept of God perfecting man in the here and now and even with a concept of a hiearchy of rewards from least to greatest in heaven. Gaining more grace over one’s life is about increasing the capacity of one’s soul to love God more and draw deeper into His Love in the here and now and into deeper beatitude in the afterlife.
Be all you can be - partake of the sacraments and do the the work of the Lord - which is believing ALL that Jesus taught.
James
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ncgolf
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This makes no sense. What is “truly believes”? What does a believer believe if he/she does not truly believe? Where in Scripture does it say a believer must truly believe in their heart?
What criteria does “believing in their heart” entail?
It seems you have generated 3 categories … non-believers, believers(or believers who do not truly believe") and “believers who truly believe”.
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