How does a Catholic increase the chance of getting into Heaven?

[Tanner9188]

I found this to be a profoundly ironic statement…coming from a person who himself is offering “a human viewpoint” of Christian theology. Just exactly how is it, Tanner, that your teaching can be trusted as “the truth of God”, and not just another “human viewpoint” which you exhort us not to follow? Is it because you know how to discern Christian truths from Scripture better than the historical Church…or better than some other bible-only Christian who by the way is easily apt to “teach” us something different from what you say?

That would be an understatement, but to answer that; both MD and myself understand Scripture and its application to the believer better than the entire 1700 years of the “Catholic Church”; why because they have totally strayed from the Word of God IMO. Not hard to discern this either IMObervation. Not because we are any better or smarter, we are not; we are probably dumb in comparison of intellect, but we have something they apparently do not nor ever have; the Spirit of Truth residing within us.

Actually, that MUST be your rationale, for there is no other explanation for it…you obviously possess the true doctrines of Christ’s teachings. Tell us how you came upon this authenticity which has enabled you to come tell us how wrong we all are and set us on the proper path.

sorry for the crassness…but the irony of this was overwhelming.

There is no irony here; ever met someone who has all kinds of Biblical knowledge but unable to practice or believe what they studied. We see them in seminaries and higher education institutes across the country; they are sometimes referred to as Biblical scholars. Head knowledge does nothing except make you wise in your own eyes; called pride, which God hates.

2 Timothy 3 - (God puts it in more direct terms)
6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9 But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

20 O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called “knowledge”— 21 which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith.

Grace be with you.

on a sidenote…are you really going to submit to us with a straight face that Catholics hold grace infusion and propitiation in opposition to one another? that we believe it to be infusion instead of propitiation? What exactly do you really know about Catholic teaching, Tanner? Seems to me you have a natural ignorance of The Church, or a proclivity to inject strawmen…or worse…both.

Listen to your own Church teaching of saving grace being increased by “good works”; a works salvation religion. Their are only two religions in the world; the religion of divine achievement in which God has done it all or the religion of human achievement where God does His part and people do their part and at the end the hope is that the person did their part and will end up in heaven.

This is a personal attack on the glory do completely to God as Christ finished the work of full reconciliation for those who believe on the Son.

“If man, as the Protestant theory of justification teaches, is justified by faith alone, by the external justice of Christ, or God, the conclusion which Martin Luther (Sermo de nat. Maria) drew must follow, namely that “we are all equal to Mary the Mother of God and just as holy as she”. But if on the other hand, according to the teaching of the Church, we are justified by the justice and merits of Christ in such fashion that this becomes formally our own justice and holiness, then there must result an inequality of grace in individuals, and for two reasons: first, because 1) according to the generosity of God or the receptive condition of the soul an unequal amount of grace is infused; (That is totally bogus and cannot be shown in Scripture, but the antithesis can be shown) then, also, 2) because** the grace originally received can be increased by the performance of good works** (Trent, Sess. VI, cap. vii, can. xxiv). This possibility of increase in grace by good works…”
newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm

The sacraments thus far considered were merely signs of sacred things. According to the teaching of the Catholic Church, accepted today by many Episcopalians, the sacraments of the Christian dispensation are not mere signs; they do not merely signify Divine grace, but in virtue of their Divine institution, they cause that grace in the souls of men. “Signum sacro sanctum efficax gratiae”

This is a works-salvation. IMO only; the devil always goes after the salvation message and gives most of the glory to God, but them slides some of it to man’s efforts and effectively changing the Gospel of Grace as the “free gift” of God; therefore Grace is no longer Grace and the devil has his way resulting in the destruction of many souls; the grates tragedy.

You can only believe what I say; if you are like the Bereans and see if it is true or not; reject it if it is not true and embrace if it is. I don’t fool myself into thinking I could change a single heart; that is not my authority. I can only present what God has already said.

 

[CentralFLJames]

That would be an understatement, but to answer that; both MD and myself understand Scripture and its application to the believer better than the entire 1700 years of the “Catholic Church”; why because they have totally strayed fro the Word of God IMO.

Is IMO, “in my opinion” the Protestant equivalent of the Catholic Magisterial hallmark certification or a new secular-Christianity imprimatur or Good Housekeeping certification? Did any apostle teach a salvation by “in my opinion”???

There are 800 million Protestant personal opinions “out there” about what their Bible’s teach them. Do you think your opinion is the right one or are you saying that Catholic believers “in your opinion” are not saved since Catholics believers “believe” but that is not sufficient for Catholics since we exceed the minimum requirements for salvation by doing good works and that invalidates their belief?

James

 

[Tanner9188]

This makes no sense. What is “truly believes”? What does a believer believe if he/she does not truly believe? Where in Scripture does it say a believer must truly believe in their heart?

What criteria does “believing in their heart” entail?

It seems you have generated 3 categories … non-believers, believers(or believers who do not truly believe") and “believers who truly believe”.

Do you have a Bible? Look it up! Everything you need for faith, salvation and practice of that faith can be found there.

I will give you some tips. What it means to believe from the heart; there is an objective aspect and a subjective aspect to “truly believing”, which is just another way of saying that a true believer; God knows them; whereas the “believer” claims to know God, but God does not know them. (self deceived in most cases)

I would start with a word search on the word “heart”; that would be enough to see the objective and subjective, just in the NT…but you can go further into the OT as well. Romans 10 will give an example of the objective.

This is how I distinguish from professors and possessors. I don’t always 100% of the time make this distinction, but I’m glad you have enough insight to pick up on that.

If you get stuck, then tell me what you are able to find out and I will assist you in what you are perhaps overlooking.

God Bless!

 

[ncgolf]

Do you have a Bible? Look it up! Everything you need for faith, salvation and practice of that faith can be found there.

I will give you some tips. What it means to believe from the heart; there is an objective aspect and a subjective aspect to “truly believing”, which is just another way of saying that a true believer; God knows them; whereas the “believer” claims to know God, but God does not know them. (self deceived in most cases)

I would start with a word search on the word “heart”; that would be enough to see the objective and subjective, just in the NT…but you can go further into the OT as well. Romans 10 will give an example of the objective.

This is how I distinguish from professors and possessors. I don’t always 100% of the time make this distinction, but I’m glad you have enough insight to pick up on that.

If you get stuck, then tell me what you are able to find out and I will assist you in what you are perhaps overlooking.

God Bless!

 

[Tanner9188]

Is IMO, “in my opinion” the Protestant equivalent of the Catholic Magisterial hallmark certification or a new secular-Christianity imprimatur or Good Housekeeping certification? Did any apostle teach a salvation by “in my opinion”???

There are 800 million Protestant personal opinions “out there” about what their Bible’s teach them. Do you think your opinion is the right one or are you saying that Catholic believers “in your opinion” are not saved since Catholics believers “believe” but that is not sufficient for Catholics since we exceed the minimum requirements for salvation by doing good works and that invalidates their belief?

James

Touch a nerve? Sorry. James is that what I said? “that is not sufficient for Catholics since we exceed the minimum requirements for salvation by doing good works and that invalidates their belief?” It is not my position to condemn anyone; that is the work of God.

 

[Tomster]

Is IMO, “in my opinion” the Protestant equivalent of the Catholic Magisterial hallmark certification or a new secular-Christianity imprimatur or Good Housekeeping certification? Did any apostle teach a salvation by “in my opinion”???

There are 800 million Protestant personal opinions “out there” about what their Bible’s teach them. Do you think your opinion is the right one or are you saying that Catholic believers “in your opinion” are not saved since Catholics believers “believe” but that is not sufficient for Catholics since we exceed the minimum requirements for salvation by doing good works and that invalidates their belief?

James

Exactly James!

What do we say of fundamentalists who water down the fullness of faith in Jesus Christ? We know that disunity among Christians, evident in its divisions into thousands of denominations, thousands of interpretations, is not the will of God. We know how strongly Jesus prayed for unity among His followers, His believers, the night before He died. We know from Scripture itself that the devil is the “father of lies” and the “spirit of disunity.” Of Christians who ridicule the Catholic faith or refuse to accept the fullness of faith, can we not say that while they lay claim to truly accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, they have fallen victim to the half truth about Christ? Disunity in faith is not from the Holy Spirit. If the evil one cannot succeed in keeping all from faith in Jesus Christ, accepting Him as Lord, God and Savior, is not the evil one’s next best effort directed to presenting to them another kind of Christ so that at least they fail to recognize Christ Jesus in His fullness?

 

[nuntym]

Touch a nerve? Sorry. James is that what I said? “that is not sufficient for Catholics since we exceed the minimum requirements for salvation by doing good works and that invalidates their belief?” It is not my position to condemn anyone; that is the work of God.

No, James was asking WHY we should listen to you when there are millions of Protestants who also make the same claim of “understanding Scripture and its application to the believer better than the entire 1700 years of the ‘Catholic Church’” along of having the same claim of “the Spirit of Truth residing within us,” and yet give millions of versions also of what their understanding of the Scriptures are.

 

[Tomster]

No, James was asking WHY we should listen to you when there are 30,000 (more or less) other Protestant denominations who also make the same claim of “understanding Scripture and its application to the believer better than the entire 1700 years of the ‘Catholic Church’” along of having the same claim of “the Spirit of Truth residing within us.”

Obviously, Tanner believes in his “Scholarship Alone.” And I am quite sure he will be more than willing to assert this to anyone who will fall for it. Another fallible man claiming infallibility for himself.

BTW - I thought Fundamentalists were drilled to “search the Scriptures” not “search the heart.”

 

[Tanner9188]

:clapping: You should read this Tanner.

I, and all Catholics I would think, totally agree.

Now this is interesting. How does one deal with the “sin issue” on God’s terms?

Do you have a bible? I assume you do and you probably read it quite often; I don’t know that for sure. I would start by reading and understanding the first 2 beatitudes; this is the basic point that a person must reach before they can fully turn over their heart to God. This is exactly what the Publican in Matthew 18 demonstrates. You must reach a place of total humility and shame before God because of the offenses you have committed against His person, character and attributes. You must see how you really are in the sight of God, not in your own perception.

There is good reason why there are “few” people that FIND the narrow gate and actually strive though it to get onto the narrow path, which leads to life. People never adequately deal with their sin on his terms as the bible teaches.

If this is so, then every Catholic who sincerely participates in the Roman Rite Holy Mass is a good model of someone dealing with the sin issue, for we say at the beginning of each Mass, with the beating of our breasts

Is this what God says is His way? Roman Rite?

I confess to almighty God,
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do;
and** I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.**

Every Catholic who goes to Confession, and every Catholic who does the daily examination of conscience, is a good model, for he/she has to say

O my God,
I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee,
and I detest all my sins
because I dread the loss of heaven
and the pains of hell,
but most of all because they offend Thee, my God,
Who are all good and deserving of all my love.

I firmly resolve with the help of Thy grace
to confess my sins, **to do penance**,
and to amend my life.
Amen.

And yet I have to say that if we were under the state of mortal sin and we did only just those prayers then maybe it would not be sufficient to grant us sanctifying grace.

I still deal with my sins everyday, Tanner. Everyone still does, without exemption, until we leave for the other side. Even you, Tanner. We have a saying: Even a Saint sins at least seven times a day.

Tanner, I ask you, how do you think of sin? Do you yourself still sin now? Aren’t you horrified when you do?

Hi, great question; I sin every single day, more than seven I would say; especially in light of the standards that God set in Matthew 5,6 & 7 among other places.

I’m not horrified any more, but very remorseful and sorrowful; for my sins were forgiven before I was even born according to the Word of God. I’m a parent and when my child is disobedient and must be corrected out of love for the child; he will ask for forgiveness. Does he need to do that to be forgiven, no he is my child and I have already forgiven him. It is gratifying that he acknowledges his wrong and comes to us in humility to ask; this shows reverence and respect for our authority as parents. That is the point we want them to understand. Likewise, my Father sees me in the same way; He has already forgiven the offense before I even come and ask for forgiveness in humility and reverance for Him; recognizing His authority and glorifying His name.

Your life, while in the flesh will not be perfect, so it is not the perfection of one’s life with God, but the direction of that life - sinning less and less and recognizing the little sins that you once took no notice of. In that sense it seems as though the sins are bigger than when I first believed because because I have become very sensitive to sin; this is a good indication one is moving in the right direction; becoming more and more like Christ.

God bless you and bring His peace upon you this hour.

Tanner

 

[paul_c]

That would be an understatement, but to answer that; both MD and myself understand Scripture and its application to the believer better than the entire 1700 years of the “Catholic Church”; why because they have totally strayed from the Word of God IMO. Not hard to discern this either IMObervation. Not because we are any better or smarter, we are not; we are probably dumb in comparison of intellect, but we have something they apparently do not nor ever have; the Spirit of Truth residing within us.

First of all, the Catholic Church is 2000 years old and can easily be traced back to the Apostles through the Early Church Fathers. Why do you persist in saying its only 1700 years old. Secondly, what makes you think you have the spirit of Truth residing in you and what is the basis of your confidence that moondweller does as well? Why do you think that no one in the Catholic Church has the guidance of the Holy Spirit, particularly after the Holy Spirit descended on them all at Pentecost as Jesus promised and that Jesus promised that the gates of hell would not prevail on the church that he was founding on St. Peter. Honestly, you have zero credentials to support your claim. Its impossible to take this kind of statement seriously.

There is no irony here; ever met someone who has all kinds of Biblical knowledge but unable to practice or believe what they studied. We see them in seminaries and higher education institutes across the country; they are sometimes referred to as Biblical scholars. Head knowledge does nothing except make you wise in your own eyes; called pride, which God hates.

2 Timothy 3 - (God puts it in more direct terms)
6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9 But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

20 O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called “knowledge”— 21 which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith.

Grace be with you.

I will add 2Peter3 15-18 to your quotes:

15 And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you,
16 speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.
17 Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.
18 But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory now and to the day of eternity. (Amen.) :

Peter and Paul are talking about people like yourself, who depart from the Faith and try to mislead those that continue to be faithful to the Body of Christ. Too bad you are too blinded by your own biases to see this.

 

[paul_c]

Listen to your own Church teaching of saving grace being increased by “good works”; a works salvation religion. Their are only two religions in the world; the religion of divine achievement in which God has done it all or the religion of human achievement where God does His part and people do their part and at the end the hope is that the person did their part and will end up in heaven.

“If man, as the Protestant theory of justification teaches, is justified by faith alone, by the external justice of Christ, or God, the conclusion which Martin Luther (Sermo de nat. Maria) drew must follow, namely that “we are all equal to Mary the Mother of God and just as holy as she”. But if on the other hand, according to the teaching of the Church, we are justified by the justice and merits of Christ in such fashion that this becomes formally our own justice and holiness, then there must result an inequality of grace in individuals, and for two reasons: first, because 1) according to the generosity of God or the receptive condition of the soul an unequal amount of grace is infused; (That is totally bogus and cannot be shown in Scripture, but the antithesis can be shown) then, also, 2) because** the grace originally received can be increased by the performance of good works** (Trent, Sess. VI, cap. vii, can. xxiv). This possibility of increase in grace by good works…”
newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm

The sacraments thus far considered were merely signs of sacred things. According to the teaching of the Catholic Church, accepted today by many Episcopalians, the sacraments of the Christian dispensation are not mere signs; they do not merely signify Divine grace, but in virtue of their Divine institution, they cause that grace in the souls of men. “Signum sacro sanctum efficax gratiae”

This is a works-salvation. IMO only; the devil always goes after the salvation message and gives most of the glory to God, but them slides some of it to man’s efforts and effectively changing the Gospel of Grace as the “free gift” of God; therefore Grace is no longer Grace and the devil has his way resulting in the destruction of many souls; the grates tragedy.

You can only believe what I say; if you are like the Bereans and see if it is true or not; reject it if it is not true and embrace if it is. I don’t fool myself into thinking I could change a single heart; that is not my authority. I can only present what God has already said.

Again, you are blinded from the truth by your own biases. Once we are given the grace to be saved through baptism, we must stay in the state of Grace by doing God’s will. If we sin, we fall from Grace and can only get back in good graces through the sacrament of reconciliation.

What you are missing is the Gospel of Love. All you have is the Gospel of Faith, but it is love that saves you. when Jesus was asked what it took to get to heaven in matthew 19, he said to follow the commandments and to give to the poor. To be sure, he also told us that you need to have faith, but that is insufficient on its own. This point is hammered home by all the new testament writers:
James 2:
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Paul in Romans 2
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.
11 There is no partiality with God.
12 All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.

1John 2:
1 My children, I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one.
2 He is expiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but for those of the whole world.
3 The way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his command ments.
4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps his word, the love of God is truly perfected in him. This is the way we may know that we are in union with him:
6 whoever claims to abide in him ought to live (just) as he lived.

 

[Tanner9188]

No, James was asking WHY we should listen to you when there are millions of Protestants who also make the same claim of “understanding Scripture and its application to the believer better than the entire 1700 years of the ‘Catholic Church’” along of having the same claim of “the Spirit of Truth residing within us,” and yet give millions of versions also of what their understanding of the Scriptures are.

To you , James, Tomster and anyone else; I give the same answer to this question through the forum.

I would not listen to one thing I say or anyone else says or teaches unless, like the Bereans, you can search the Scripture and see if it is true. If it is true, then embrace it, if it is not true, then reject it. Nothing magical in that; this is why we have a divine standard of truth so we don’t get blown by every wind of doctrine.

Hope this clarifies these things. I might also add; that if you are unable to discern the things of God on your own, then you probably don’t have the resident Truth Teacher. God made promises to those whom He loves by giving the Spirit of Truth to each individual believer; so they can discern and understand what is right and what is not concerning the wisdom, knowledge and understand of His revelation.

Much love and blessing,

Tanner

 

[Tanner9188]

Again, you are blinded from the truth by your own biases. Once we are given the grace to be saved through baptism, we must stay in the state of Grace by doing God’s will. If we sin, we fall from Grace and can only get back in good graces through the sacrament of reconciliation.

What you are missing is the Gospel of Love. All you have is the Gospel of Faith, but it is love that saves you. when Jesus was asked what it took to get to heaven in matthew 19, he said to follow the commandments and to give to the poor. To be sure, he also told us that you need to have faith, but that is insufficient on its own. This point is hammered home by all the new testament writers:
James 2:
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Paul in Romans 2
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.
11 There is no partiality with God.
12 All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.

1John 2:
1 My children, I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one.
2 He is expiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but for those of the whole world.
3 The way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his command ments.
4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps his word, the love of God is truly perfected in him. This is the way we may know that we are in union with him:
6 whoever claims to abide in him ought to live (just) as he lived.

Which baptism?
Matt 3:11 (cf Luke 3:16)
"I baptize you with 1) water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the 2) Holy Spirit and with 3) fire.

There are 3 types mentioned in this one verse and only one is the true saving baptism, which is always implicit in the saving of the soul. I’ll give you a hint; nothing to do with water. This may explain why Paul was so adamant when he made the following statement:
1 Corinthians 1:17 -
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel–not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. - Something to think about - were any of the apostles; except Paul water baptized? I would say they were, but there is no Biblical record; seems like it should be there to really emphasize the important towrd salvation as some claim. - just another thought.

 

[paul_c]

To you , James, Tomster and anyone else; I give the same answer to this question through the forum.

I would not listen to one thing I say or anyone else says or teaches unless, like the Bereans, you can search the Scripture and see if it is true. If it is true, then embrace it, if it is not true, then reject it. Nothing magical in that; this is why we have a divine standard of truth so we don’t get blown by every wind of doctrine.

Hope this clarifies these things. I might also add; that if you are unable to discern the things of God on your own, then you probably don’t have the resident Truth Teacher. God made promises to those whom He loves by giving the Spirit of Truth to each individual believer; so they can discern and understand what is right and what is not concerning the wisdom, knowledge and understand of His revelation.

Much love and blessing,

Tanner

Using your own advice, much of what you say is directly contradicted in scripture. Yet, you beleive that you have the spirit of truth in you. How could that be true?

 

[paul_c]

Which baptism?
Matt 3:11 (cf Luke 3:16)
"I baptize you with 1) water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the 2) Holy Spirit and with 3) fire.

There are 3 types mentioned in this one verse and only one is the true saving baptism, which is always implicit in the saving of the soul. I’ll give you a hint; nothing to do with water. This may explain why Paul was so adamant when he made the following statement:
1 Corinthians 1:17 -
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel–not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. - Something to think about - were any of the apostles; except Paul water baptized? I would say they were, but there is no Biblical record; seems like it should be there to really emphasize the important towrd salvation as some claim. - just another thought.

Tanner, have you never read Acts? What does St. Peter do in Acts 2:
36 herefore let the whole house of Israel know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Jesus whom you crucified."
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and they asked Peter and the other apostles, “What are we to do, my brothers?”
38 Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, 7 every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.”
40 He testified with many other arguments, and was exhorting them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”
41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day.

How about this exchange in Acts 8:
26 Then the angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, “Get up and head south on the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza, the desert route.”
27So he got up and set out. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, that is, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury, who had come to Jerusalem to worship,
28 and was returning home. Seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah.
29 The Spirit said to Philip, “Go and join up with that chariot.”
30 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31 He replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?” So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.
32 This was the scripture passage he was reading: “Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter, and as a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
33 In (his) humiliation justice was denied him. Who will tell of his posterity? For his life is taken from the earth.”
34 Then the eunuch said to Philip in reply, “I beg you, about whom is the prophet saying this? About himself, or about someone else?”
35 Then Philip opened his mouth and, beginning with this scripture passage, he proclaimed Jesus to him.
36 As they traveled along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “Look, there is water. What is to prevent my being baptized?”
37 Then he ordered the chariot to stop, and Philip and the eunuch both went down into the water, and he baptized him.
39 When they came out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, but continued on his way rejoicing

Baptism is always with water. It has been that way since John the Baptist started his mission. Why do you wonder whether the disciples were baptized, when the Lord himself started his mission by being baptized?

how about this exchange in John 3:
22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went into the region of Judea, where he spent some time with them baptizing.
23 John was also baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was an abundance of water there, and people came to be baptized,
24 for John had not yet been imprisoned.
25 Now a dispute arose between the disciples of John and a Jew about ceremonial washings.
26 So they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, the one who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you testified, here he is baptizing and everyone is coming to him.”
27 John answered and said, “No one can receive anything except what has been given him from heaven.
28 You yourselves can testify that I said (that) I am not the Messiah, but that I was sent before him.
29 The one who has the bride is the bridegroom; the best man who stands and listens for him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom’s voice. So this joy of mine has been made complete.
30 He must increase; I must decrease.”
If Jesus was baptizing, it stands to reason that all of his apostles were baptized, doesn’t it

 

[nuntym]

Do you have a bible? I assume you do and you probably read it quite often; I don’t know that for sure. I would start by reading and understanding the first 2 beatitudes; this is the basic point that a person must reach before they can fully turn over their heart to God. This is exactly what the Publican in Matthew 18 demonstrates. You must reach a place of total humility and shame before God because of the offenses you have committed against His person, character and attributes. You must see how you really are in the sight of God, not in your own perception.

OH, you mean like this:

By nature we are prouder than peacocks, we cling to the earth more than toads, we are baser than goats, more envious than serpents, greedier than pigs, fiercer than tigers, lazier than tortoises, weaker than reeds, and more changeable than weather-cocks. We have in us nothing but sin and deserve only the wrath of God and the eternity of hell.
—Saint Louis Marie de Montfort
True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin

Uhm that’s how good Catholics see themselves.
Tanner9188;5611169:

There is good reason why there are “few” people that FIND the narrow gate and actually strive though it to get onto the narrow path, which leads to life. People never adequately deal with their sin on his terms as the bible teaches.

Unfortunately I have to agree with you on that.

Is this what God says is His way? Roman Rite?

The Holy Eucharist is the highest form of worship any Christian can participate in. There are other ways of celebrating the Mass, but the Roman Rite is the one I am most familiar with.

I confess to almighty God,
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do;
and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.

What, I cannot ask for someone to pray for me?

Every Catholic who goes to Confession, and every Catholic who does the daily examination of conscience, is a good model, for he/she has to say

Sorry my bad, it should be he/she should pray sincerely.

O my God,
I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee,
and I detest all my sins
because I dread the loss of heaven
and the pains of hell,
but most of all because they offend Thee, my God,
Who are all good and deserving of all my love.

I firmly resolve with the help of Thy grace
to confess my sins, to do penance,

and to amend my life.
Amen.

What? You don’t tell your child to be responsible? If I sin against someone, say, I stole something, it is one thing to be forgiven…and another thing to return what I stole. It is one thing to be forgiven for breaking something…and to repair or replace what I broke. That is the essence of penance.

1459 Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused. Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must “make satisfaction for” or “expiate” his sins. This satisfaction is also called “penance.”
Catechism of the Catholic Church

continued…

 

[nuntym]

Hi, great question; I sin every single day, more than seven I would say; especially in light of the standards that God set in Matthew 5,6 & 7 among other places.

I’m not horrified any more, but very remorseful and sorrowful; for my sins were forgiven before I was even born according to the Word of God.

Uhm, no. “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). God forgives after confession of those sins, not before.

However, I commend you in being honest.

I’m a parent and when my child is disobedient and must be corrected out of love for the child; he will ask for forgiveness. Does he need to do that to be forgiven, no he is my child and I have already forgiven him. It is gratifying that he acknowledges his wrong and comes to us in humility to ask; this shows reverence and respect for our authority as parents. That is the point we want them to understand. Likewise, my Father sees me in the same way; He has already forgiven the offense before I even come and ask for forgiveness in humility and reverance for Him; recognizing His authority and glorifying His name.

And what if your child never ever asked for your forgiveness from you? What if your child resolutely refuses any of your tender words of affection, never listens to you, defies all your commands until you or he dies? Will your forgiveness DO anything for him then?

Remember the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)? In that story, yes, the Father may have forgiven the wayward son even when the son asked for his inheritance, but the forgiveness was useless until the son returned. The forgiveness cannot heal the son, cannot restore the son’s stature as heir of the Father, until he comes to the Father in shame and remorse.

And yet, being God, anything that God wills MUST be efficacious—that is, it must have an effect—or then He is not omnipotent. And since it is His choice that forgiveness has NO effect on the soul BEFORE that soul asks for forgiveness (as can be gleaned from the parable of the Prodigal Son and illustrated by my example before), it must follow that forgiveness must come AFTER that soul asks for forgiveness.

And that has always been the stance of the Catholic Church. God is always ready to forgive sins. In the Novena to the Divine Mercy we call Jesus an “Immeasurable Ocean of Divine Mercy.” And yet the Ocean of Divine Mercy is closed to an obstinate heart, to one who does not love.

Your life, while in the flesh will not be perfect, so it is not the perfection of one’s life with God, but the direction of that life - sinning less and less and recognizing the little sins that you once took no notice of. In that sense it seems as though the sins are bigger than when I first believed because because I have become very sensitive to sin; this is a good indication one is moving in the right direction; becoming more and more like Christ.

Again, I agree with you, this time totally.

God bless you and bring His peace upon you this hour.

Tanner

I may not be able to be back for two days. Until then God bless you too Tanner and everyone here.

 

[nuntym]

To you , James, Tomster and anyone else; I give the same answer to this question through the forum.

I would not listen to one thing I say or anyone else says or teaches unless, like the Bereans, you can search the Scripture and see if it is true. If it is true, then embrace it, if it is not true, then reject it. Nothing magical in that; this is why we have a divine standard of truth so we don’t get blown by every wind of doctrine.

Hope this clarifies these things. I might also add; that if you are unable to discern the things of God on your own, then you probably don’t have the resident Truth Teacher. God made promises to those whom He loves by giving the Spirit of Truth to each individual believer; so they can discern and understand what is right and what is not concerning the wisdom, knowledge and understand of His revelation.

Much love and blessing,

Tanner

Sorry, I cannot resist asking

Who can tell you to me or anyone that the things we discern are from God or from the devil or from myself or from the world? Who can help me unfailingly? Remember that discernment of these things is essential for eternal life, so the ones who will help me discern MUST be right.

I just remembered a parable that Fr. Trese said:

Here is a little scene that easily could happen: The manager of a manufacturing plant takes one of his workers over to a new machine that has just been installed. It is a huge and complicated machine. The manager says to the workman, “Now I am going to put you in charge of this machine. If you do a good job with it, you’ll get a bonus…But…if you mess it up, out you go on your ear. Here is a book that explains the machine. Now get to work!”

“Wait a minute!” the worker might well say. “If this is going to mean the difference between a pile of money and no job at all, I want more than a book. A book is too easy to misunderstand. And besides, you can’t ask questions of a book. How about getting somebody over here from the place where they made these machines? He can tell me all about it and see that I get it straight.”

It is a reasonable request that the workman makes, and a sensible one too. Likewise we, when we are told that our whole job on earth is “to know, love, and serve God,” and that our eternal happiness depends upon how well we do that, we also can very reasonably ask, “Who is going to tell me how, who is going to tell me the things I need to know?”
—Fr. Leo J. Trese, The Faith Explained, 3rd edition, p.13

 

[Thing]

Tanner9188:

…to do penance

Is this what God says is His way? Roman Rite?

Yes indeed, penance is what God says;

Matthew 11

21 Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida: for if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in you, they had long ago done penance in sackcloth and ashes.

And interestingly, donning the penitential style ‘sackcloth’ we see in Apocylapse the two witnesses;

Apocalypse 11

3 And I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.

Sackcloth is good.

 

[Tanner9188]

Using your own advice, much of what you say is directly contradicted in scripture. Yet, you beleive that you have the spirit of truth in you. How could that be true?

I don’t know Paul; how could two things that contradict each other both be true?