How does a Catholic increase the chance of getting into Heaven?

[paul_c]

I don’t know Paul; how could two things that contradict each other both be true?

My point exactly. When you read scripture, you need to read it so that your interpretation isn’t contradicted by other scritpure. That’s how you know you are on the right track. If you find that your interpretation is contradicted by other scripture, you know your interpretation is wrong because all scripture is valid.

Protestant theology has all kinds of problems like this. for instance, Its hard to justify faith alone when James is so specifically against it.

Take a step back and think about this. Catholic theology has no such contradictions because scripture was written to support it.

Take Care and God bless you on your journey to the truth…

 

[Tanner9188]

Yes indeed, penance is what God says;

Matthew 11

21 Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida: for if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in you, they had long ago done penance in sackcloth and ashes.

And interestingly, donning the penitential style ‘sackcloth’ we see in Apocylapse the two witnesses;

Apocalypse 11

3 And I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.

Sackcloth is good.

Solid response!

Catholic definition:
Penance is a sacrament of the New Law instituted by Christ in which forgiveness of sins committed after baptism is granted through the priest’s absolution to those who with true sorrow confess their sins and promise to satisfy for the same.

newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm

Biblical definition:
"repentance" or as a couple of translations use “penance” = “metavnoia” a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done

Are these the same? Do you see any significant differences? Do these differences change the simple way the Bible speaks repentance in relation to the Catholic definition?
Did the apostles hire a priest or have a priest administer “penance” as a sacrament? Did the apostles speak of a priest or a Pope? Is there more than one apostolic teaching? If two things are in opposition to each other, how can you know which is true?

 

[Tanner9188]

My point exactly. When you read scripture, you need to read it so that your interpretation isn’t contradicted by other scritpure. That’s how you know you are on the right track. If you find that your interpretation is contradicted by other scripture, you know your interpretation is wrong because all scripture is valid.

Protestant theology has all kinds of problems like this. for instance, Its hard to justify faith alone when James is so specifically against it.

Take a step back and think about this. Catholic theology has no such contradictions because scripture was written to support it.

Take Care and God bless you on your journey to the truth…

Hi Paul, Would this be a good example of what you mean? Paul you have a friend who is unregenerate or lost and you are talking one day with your friend and are gravely concerned about not knowing Jesus. So in your compassion for your friend you present the Gospel of Jesus to him and explain the dire consequences of not accepting the gospel of Jesus Christ. You friend politely tells you: “shove it; I’m not interested in what you said and I don’t believe a word of it”. Now you are very sad because you know the consequence; can you tell your friend, since he blatantly rejected the gospel, that he remains/is bound in his sin unless he repents? Would heaven be in agreement with your assessment? Why? Is it because the power is in the messenger or in the message?
You see some believe the power to loose and bind is unique to special messengers; like Peter or the apostles. But is this really what the Bible teaches? Did we not show that you, mere lay person, can do it because the real power is in the gospel, not the messenger of the gospel. What is this authority that allows or permits the messenger to deliver the message; is it not divine in origin? Is the message from heaven?

Of course Matthew 18 verifies that you as a lay person can indeed do what is obvious, practical and commanded.

If you look at James (“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”) and believe he is making the point against faith alone, then what do you do with the apparent contradiction of Paul in Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
How do you reconcile these? Scripture must validate Scripture as you rightly said. So we know we are missing something here; so if you can figure it out, it is like a riddle or a puzzle. I will give you a clue as to unravel the mystery. In reference to James; does God need to see a mans works to know if God himself justified the person?
in reference to Ephesians; who would people boast “in” if they were able to credit themselves with doing works that resulted in salvation? Man or God?

See what you figure out for yourself; might want to do some “key word or phrase” searches to see what other parts of Scripture say concerning “faith” and “works”. Let me know what you find; I look forward to hearing from you and enjoy yourself; for you are searching through the voice of God.

Blessings.

 

[Tanner9188]

Sorry, I cannot resist asking

Who can tell you to me or anyone that the things we discern are from God or from the devil or from myself or from the world? Who can help me unfailingly? Remember that discernment of these things is essential for eternal life, so the ones who will help me discern MUST be right.

I just remembered a parable that Fr. Trese said:

Here is a little scene that easily could happen: The manager of a manufacturing plant takes one of his workers over to a new machine that has just been installed. It is a huge and complicated machine. The manager says to the workman, “Now I am going to put you in charge of this machine. If you do a good job with it, you’ll get a bonus…But…if you mess it up, out you go on your ear. Here is a book that explains the machine. Now get to work!”

“Wait a minute!” the worker might well say. “If this is going to mean the difference between a pile of money and no job at all, I want more than a book. A book is too easy to misunderstand. And besides, you can’t ask questions of a book. How about getting somebody over here from the place where they made these machines? He can tell me all about it and see that I get it straight.”

It is a reasonable request that the workman makes, and a sensible one too. Likewise we, when we are told that our whole job on earth is “to know, love, and serve God,” and that our eternal happiness depends upon how well we do that, we also can very reasonably ask, “Who is going to tell me how, who is going to tell me the things I need to know?”
—Fr. Leo J. Trese, The Faith Explained, 3rd edition, p.13

Well; who can we trust 100% of the time without fail? Who is the true interpreter of Scripture? They are one in the same.

Let me think for a moment about you story; if the machine was the gospel, which is not that complicated, and the manual was the Bible with the instruction of the gospel and all the other things like practical godly living, then it would make sense to have creator of the machine to assist the individual in understanding the instruction manual and the machine.

Blessings!

 

[brb2]

my Father sees me in the same way; He has already forgiven the offense before I even come and ask for forgiveness

Oh really !!! In your dreams If it is not in scripture, it’s not a fact … so you would tell us.

Show us the scripture to support your dream concept of your pre-repentance justification …or else admit you are presuming upon the grace of God, and teaching a false Gospel.

 

[brb2]

D

There is good reason why there are “few” people that FIND the narrow gate and actually strive though it to get onto the narrow path, which leads to life.

Why just a few Tanner ? According to you, their sins were forgiven before they ever had to confess them. Where is the NARROW GATE in that illogic Tannerthink ?

 

[brb2]

Focus on the message; not the messengers. MD knows exactly what to emphasize; given the audience. Christ is not the messenger in the sense that He is the message.

.

Oh really …? And where is Md now ? Are you sure he supports your illogic. Seems he has taken a powder, and isn’t standing by your side.

 

[brb2]

John 1 - “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God;”
Focus on the message; not the messengers. The message is the Gospel of Grace; the good news of grace, which is the person of Christ.

.

You can’t separate the message from the messenger … as you try to do.

Define Grace for us ?

My Bible tells me that God is LOVE, not grace. Grace is unmerited favor. Is God unmerited favor ?

 

[brb2]

.

Listen to Peter: “for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, {that is,} through the living and enduring word of God.”

.

… and the ‘living and enduring word of God’ … would be a WHAT [scripture] or a WHO ?

The written scriptures were not, for the first 20 years of the Church, … meanwhile Christ was rebirthing hundreds of thousands in HIMSELF. Did not Christ teach 'I am the WAY, the Truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father, except thru ME".

You are mistaken … not Catholics

 

[Tanner9188]

Uhm, no. “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). God forgives after confession of those sins, not before.

Is it wise to pull a single verse and apply it to the whole of Scripture on the topic? If that were the case, then we would have many many contradictions and the Bible would then be untrustworthy and thus the author untrustworthy…agree?

Do we throw this out? Colossians 2:13-15
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, **having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, **which was hostile to us; and **He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
** You see based on this passage; my sins were forgiven before I was born because I am a child of God and I have dealt with my sin issue before God; and now that I know I have been forgiven, my heart desires to please my Father, so when I do sin, I apologize and ask for forgiveness; knowing they are already forgiven. Since I have respect and gratitude I am happy to humble myself before my Father and request what I already know I have in Jesus

1 John 2:1-2 -
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;.and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; 2 and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
However, I commend you in being honest.
Propitiation: The act of atoning for sin or wrongdoing…where was this accomplished? At calvary? Just as Colossians 2 above verifies.

Psalm 32:1 A Psalm of David. A Maskil. How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered! - Amen to that! That is a happy person indeed.

2 Corinthians 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

I could add another 15 or you versus stating the same thing; this is why it is imperative not to pull one verse and give it the application you think it is; you must compare Scripture with Scripture and let it verify itself; and it will. If their appears to be a contradiction, then one is not understanding what God has said.

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Many people will pull this one verse out and apply their own understanding because they did not put it in light of the passage, the chapter, the audience and the whole of Scripture. Because of this; things like Ephesians 2:8-9 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

It looks like a direct contradiction between James and Paul, but a little diligence and digging will reveal they are actually complementing each other. But I’ll let you have the joy and pleasure of discovering it for yourself. In a previous post I gave a couple of hints to help make the wonderful discovery.

And what if your child never ever asked for your forgiveness from you? What if your child resolutely refuses any of your tender words of affection, never listens to you, defies all your commands until you or he dies? Will your forgiveness DO anything for him then?

Remember the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)? In that story, yes, the Father may have forgiven the wayward son even when the son asked for his inheritance, but the forgiveness was useless until the son returned. The forgiveness cannot heal the son, cannot restore the son’s stature as heir of the Father, until he comes to the Father in shame and remorse.

Keep in mind that my illustration is of an earthly parental relationship; so you are somewhat correct that for the child the forgiveness would mean little; but to a godly parent, then the Lord would be pleased with the parent for demonstrating love and discipline as He commands regardless of the end result of the child.

Also, the child that you described in your reply; would this be a child of God? Nope! No child of God will live a total life of disobedience; this would only prove the child was not a child of God, but rather the devil.

And yet, being God, anything that God wills MUST be efficacious—that is, it must have an effect—or then He is not omnipotent. And since it is His choice that forgiveness has NO effect on the soul BEFORE that soul asks for forgiveness (as can be gleaned from the parable of the Prodigal Son and illustrated by my example before), it must follow that forgiveness must come AFTER that soul asks for forgiveness.

I do not disagree that the forgiveness will not take place until the person deals with their sin issue as I stated in the previous post. Where we disagree is how and when this forgiveness actually and really occurs. I turn to the bible for this answer and verify it against the Scripture itself. Many people do not approach it this way and chose their own way. This is the reason why Jesus said in Matthew 7:13-14; that many devout religious people go through the wide gate and are on the broad road that leads to destruction; both paths are marked heaven, but concerning the narrow gate Jesus said that “few find it”; and the one’s that do must stay on a very narrow path.

And that has always been the stance of the Catholic Church. God is always ready to forgive sins. In the Novena to the Divine Mercy we call Jesus an “Immeasurable Ocean of Divine Mercy.” And yet the Ocean of Divine Mercy is closed to an obstinate heart, to one who does not love.

Amen to that!

Again, I agree with you, this time totally.
I may not be able to be back for two days. Until then God bless you too Tanner and everyone here.

Lord willing; you’ll be back soon and we can continue our dialogue.

 

[brb2]

my sins were forgiven before I was born because I am a child of God and I have dealt with my sin issue before God; .

Uh … really ? Give us the TOTAL scriptural Gospel message to support your conclusions. Not just a single verse … but, the whole gamut of scriptures that in their totality support your statement.
Tanner9188;5613055:

Is it wise to pull a single verse and apply it to the whole of Scripture on the topic? If that were the case, then we would have many many contradictions and the Bible would then be untrustworthy and thus the author untrustworthy…agree?

Many people will pull this one verse out and apply their own understanding because they did not put it in light of the passage, the chapter, the audience and the whole of Scripture. Because of this; things like Ephesians 2:8-9 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

It looks like a direct contradiction between James and Paul, but a little diligence and digging will reveal they are actually complementing each other. .

Uh … Tanner calling Moondweller !!! Moondweller does this all the time … with this exact verse

Tanner … you are really stirring up a Protestant Hornet’s nest

 

[SteveGC]

Tanner, and Md too if you want, could you answer a question for me please…a simple yes or no for now will suffice…

Is there any possibility that there are errors in your scriptural interpretations (and hence, your Christian understanding and preaching based thereon) regarding faith and salvation?

And could you answer this question…

*Is the use (marital or otherwise) of contraception a sinful act in the eyes of God? *

 

[guanophore]

The topic is saving grace here; it is imputed 100% at the time a believer truly believes in their heart; whereas you are taught that it is “infused”

Infused is a Latinization that attempts to capture the scriptural sense of “pouring”.

You see, Catholics believe that when God “credits” his grace to us by faith, that He is not just doctoring the books. He is actually making a deposit into our account!

a little at a time as you go through the Sacraments and other rituals that are not based on Biblical authority.

This phrase represents some serious misunderstandings in many ways. Grace is not “a little at a time”. Grace is infused completely and totally, in each and every sacrament.

Second, of course the sacraments are “not based on Biblical Authority”! Jesus instituted all of them prior to any word of the NT being written! They are all based on His direct revelation.

“Rituals” do not, in themselves, imbue any power or grace. It is God working through them that is a means to dispense His grace. If you think the sacramental or ritualistic principle is “unbiblical”, I urge you to go back and read how the worship and sacramental rituals were set up by God for Israel.

It is a fatal flaw because it is an attack on Scripture because it denies the complete and effectual atonement accomplished on the cross. Another gospel.

What is an “attack on scripture” is trying to distill the practice of Christian faith from it, instead of from the Head of the Church, it’s Founder, Bridegroom, and purifier. Christianity was whole and complete when Jesus committed it to the Apostles. It did not lose it’s completeness when some of it was committed to writing.

It is because of His atonement on the cross that His grace flows through the Sacraments.

His grace is 100% effective.

 

[guanophore]

That would be an understatement, but to answer that; both MD and myself understand Scripture and its application to the believer better than the entire 1700 years of the “Catholic Church”; why because they have totally strayed from the Word of God IMO. Not hard to discern this either IMObervation. Not because we are any better or smarter, we are not; we are probably dumb in comparison of intellect, but we have something they apparently do not nor ever have; the Spirit of Truth residing within us.

Wow.

Head knowledge does nothing except make you wise in your own eyes; called pride, which God hates.

Wow.

O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you

It is interesting your should bring this verse, because Paul here is referring to the Divine Deposit of Faith which was given to the Bishops by the Apostles. This is the faith that was handed down, and that by which the canon of scripture was created.

Listen to your own Church teaching of saving grace being increased by "good works

Actually, that is sanctifying grace. Do you deny that good works increase a persons’ holiness?

2 Peter 1:4-11
5 For this very reason **make every effort to supplement your faith **with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; 11 so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Is not the Apostle saying clearly here that striving toward these virtues will keep one from falling?

Listen to your own Church teaching of saving grace being increased by “good works”; a works salvation religion.

C’mon, Tanner, you are creating strawmen here. You have been reading too many of MD’s posts. There is no such a thing as salvation by “works”.

Titus 3:5-8
5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

We are saved because he POURS His grace out upon us.

Their are only two religions in the world; the religion of divine achievement in which God has done it all or the religion of human achievement where God does His part and people do their part and at the end the hope is that the person did their part and will end up in heaven.

This narrow minded formulation requires one to ignore a great deal of scripture, including the passage from 2 Peter above. If God’s divine achievement “does it all”, then why would the Apostle instruct us to “make every effort”?

This is a personal attack on the glory do completely to God as Christ finished the work of full reconciliation for those who believe on the Son.

No, Tanner, it gives personal honor to God, for the finished work of Christ on the cross that has yet to be finished in us.

1. because** the grace originally received can be increased by the performance of good works** (Trent, Sess. VI, cap. vii, can. xxiv). This possibility of increase in grace by good works…"
   newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm

Perhaps you have a different understanding of the passage in 2 Peter, but this statement seems consistent to me.

The sacraments thus far considered were merely signs of sacred things. According to the teaching of the Catholic Church, accepted today by many Episcopalians, the sacraments of the Christian dispensation are not mere signs; they do not merely signify Divine grace, but in virtue of their Divine institution, they cause that grace in the souls of men. “Signum sacro sanctum efficax gratiae”

This is a works-salvation.

I guess you think this way because you don’t understand the sacramental principle. Sacraments are not things that man does for himself, to save himself, but are a means by which we access the saving grace of God. There is no such thing as “works-salvation”. I think you made that up! That is what a strawman is, something you make up, then argue against. It does not really exist.

I would ask you this, in relation to sacraments. If you were blind, and Jesus put mud on your eyes, and told you to go wash in a pool of water, and you could see, would your cure from blindness be “works based” because you obeyed God?

IMO only; the devil always goes after the salvation message and gives most of the glory to God

Do you think the man in the above example has grounds to “boast” about his healing? Did his washing the mud in the pool constitute a “works healing”?

You can only believe what I say; if you are like the Bereans and see if it is true or not; reject it if it is not true and embrace if it is. I don’t fool myself into thinking I could change a single heart; that is not my authority. I can only present what God has already said.

Tanner, CAF is not a venue to try to create “bible christians” out of us poor unspiritual Catholics. If you wish to promote your evangelistic message, I suggest that you create your own forum where you can invite all those Catholics who "have not the spirit of God’ as you and MD do. Maybe MD can help you fund it?

 

[guanophore]

Do you have a Bible? Look it up! Everything you need for faith, salvation and practice of that faith can be found there.

I wish this were true.
No on second thought, I am glad it is not.

If it were true, that would mean that Jesus established a Church and gave gifts to it for no real reason.

He should have just said “look it up!”

Instead, He created a Body for the saints:

Eph 4:11-16
11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love.

Protestants don’t seem to understand why Catholics value the Church so much. It is because we accept the fullness of His gifts, which are not all found in the pages of the book.

I will give you some tips.  What it means to believe from the heart;  there is an objective aspect and a subjective aspect to "truly believing", which is just another way of saying that a true believer; God knows them; whereas the "believer" claims to know God, but God does not know them. (self deceived in most cases)

Can you give the chapter and verse where this distinction is made?

If you get stuck, then tell me what you are able to find out and I will assist you in what you are perhaps overlooking.

God Bless!

CAF is not a venue in which you can collect and develop disciples for your bible christianity.

 

[Tanner9188]

… and the ‘living and enduring word of God’ … would be a WHAT [scripture] or a WHO ?

The written scriptures were not, for the first 20 years of the Church, … meanwhile Christ was rebirthing hundreds of thousands in HIMSELF. Did not Christ teach 'I am the WAY, the Truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father, except thru ME".

You are mistaken … not Catholics

Solid answer!

 

[Tanner9188]

Tanner, and Md too if you want, could you answer a question for me please…a simple yes or no for now will suffice…

Is there any possibility that there are errors in your scriptural interpretations (and hence, your Christian understanding and preaching based thereon) regarding faith and salvation?

And could you answer this question…

*Is the use (marital or otherwise) of contraception a sinful act in the eyes of God? *

I can’t speak for him and I can’t give a person interpretation per se; it is the Scripture that will validate/interpret itself; it is the holy Spirit that indwells a true believer that leads and guides to truth; the knowledge and understanding of Scripture. Think of the Bereans; they heard something, then searched, which means they compared what they heard to what was actually written or said by God.

1. • Not if the contraception is used to kill a baby; like the morning after pill. The use of a contraception like a condom better be used in a marital; I’m not sure what you meant by other. Scripture is pretty silent on that issue, but does tell the Husband and wife not to deny each other unless it is for a short period of time and both are in prayer and agreement. God did tell some people to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth (paraphrasing) but at that time the earth was scarcely populated to say the least, which is not the case. We have multiplied around here.

 

[Tanner9188]

Uh … really ? Give us the TOTAL scriptural Gospel message to support your conclusions. Not just a single verse … but, the whole gamut of scriptures that in their totality support your statement.

Uh … Tanner calling Moondweller !!! Moondweller does this all the time … with this exact verse

Tanner … you are really stirring up a Protestant Hornet’s nest

**Your table manner need some improvement; perhaps on e of your Catholic brothers or sisters could give you some practical advise concerning this.

Colossians 2:13-15 -
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

There is not a more apt description of the work on the cross and part of its main purpose than this one passage.

Do some word and phrase searches on “forgiven”, “forgiveness” ’ and other synonyms and will will find out a great deal. I’m not doing your work for you, but I’ll be happy to help you get there.**

 

[Tanner9188]

Tanner, have you never read Acts? What does St. Peter do in Acts 2:
36 herefore let the whole house of Israel know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Jesus whom you crucified."
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and they asked Peter and the other apostles, “What are we to do, my brothers?”
38 Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, 7 every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.”
40 He testified with many other arguments, and was exhorting them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”
41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day.

**Pulling on passage out and making a doctrine of it; without looking at the context, the grammar in this case and the whole of Scripture. Water baptism cannot save; otherwise god changes the way he saves from the OT to the NT and God has never changed the way He saves fallen man; so until you can understand that basic doctrine, you won’t be able to discern this passage, which is not very difficult with a little application of grammar and a good view of Scripture concerning the way God always saves. And; God would have to make quite a few exceptions in the NT concerning saving, but Jesus always went around saying “your faith has made you well” or "your faith has saved oyu " and other similar phrased. You will not find a single instance where the Lord equates water baptism with salvation. Don’t you think that is just a little odd; if it were part of being saved? Of course it is odd; something is not right there and it is because you are doing the interpreting and not the Spirit. hint; It is the repentance that allows for the forgiveness of sins
**

How about this exchange in Acts 8:
26 Then the angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, “Get up and head south on the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza, the desert route.”
27So he got up and set out. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, that is, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury, who had come to Jerusalem to worship,
28 and was returning home. Seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah.
29 The Spirit said to Philip, “Go and join up with that chariot.”
30 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31 He replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?” So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.
32 This was the scripture passage he was reading: “Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter, and as a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
33 In (his) humiliation justice was denied him. Who will tell of his posterity? For his life is taken from the earth.”
34 Then the eunuch said to Philip in reply, “I beg you, about whom is the prophet saying this? About himself, or about someone else?”
35 Then Philip opened his mouth and, beginning with this scripture passage, he proclaimed Jesus to him.
36 As they traveled along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “Look, there is water. What is to prevent my being baptized?”
37 Then he ordered the chariot to stop, and Philip and the eunuch both went down into the water, and he baptized him.
39 When they came out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, but continued on his way rejoicingWhat does this passage say about when the eunuch received the holy Spirit? Nothing. He already had it at the moment he believed with his heart and wanted to do the first act of obedience, which is be water baptized and that is just what he did, then the Holy Spirit grabbed Philip. Do you read what you type?

Baptism is always with water. It has been that way since John the Baptist started his mission. Why do you wonder whether the disciples were baptized, when the Lord himself started his mission by being baptized?

There is no record of it in Scripture except Paul. He got a little testy and voiced a strong statement that Jesus did not send him to Baptize by to proclaim the gospel. Could not have been part of salvation for Paul to say that with such strong conviction.

how about this exchange in John 3:

22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went into the region of Judea, where he spent some time with them baptizing.
23 John was also baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was an abundance of water there, and people came to be baptized,
24 for John had not yet been imprisoned.
25 Now a dispute arose between the disciples of John and a Jew about ceremonial washings.
26 So they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, the one who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you testified, here he is baptizing and everyone is coming to him.”
27 John answered and said, “No one can receive anything except what has been given him from heaven.
28 You yourselves can testify that I said (that) I am not the Messiah, but that I was sent before him.
29 The one who has the bride is the bridegroom; the best man who stands and listens for him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom’s voice. So this joy of mine has been made complete.
30 He must increase; I must decrease.”
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If Jesus was baptizing, it stands to reason that all of his apostles were baptized, doesn’t it
Paul I would get out of the personal interpretation business if I were you; you are only bringing more wrath upon yourself IMO; there is a sever warning about rightly dividing the word of God…that warning is extended to all of us. Ask your friends around here is Jesus baptized anyone; the Bible says specially He did not; which is further evidence to the truth I am expositing. But do not take mine or anyone else’s word for it; search the Bible. Look at Luke 3:16 and Matthew 3:11; there you might see the truth.
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[Tanner9188]

You are not qualified to be teaching the Catholic faith so please stop teaching a thing you don’t know what you are talking about and creating strawman arguments. The Church does not teach that “grace is infused a little at a time”. What the Church teaches is that God gives us all the grace sufficient for our salvation at baptism and that it begins to transform us over our entire lives in the same way Jesus described the growing vine and the tree that bears good fruit. It’s not a “quantitative” argument it is a sufficiency argument and a recognition of how God NORMALLY prefers to do His work in us. Growing in grace means to be progressively more cooperative with grace and letting God increase our spiritual capacity in proportion to our ability to receive it and to cooperate with it. This same principal in seen in Paul’s writings where he mentions those who are not yet ready for adult food and are still eating infants food. This refers to maturing in the faith and spiritually growing and is harmonious with a concept of God perfecting man in the here and now and even with a concept of a hiearchy of rewards from least to greatest in heaven. Gaining more grace over one’s life is about increasing the capacity of one’s soul to love God more and draw deeper into His Love in the here and now and into deeper beatitude in the afterlife.

Be all you can be - partake of the sacraments and do the the work of the Lord - which is believing ALL that Jesus taught.

James

And you are qualified? LOL…that hurts my stomach; when will you drop your pride and self righteousness and come in all humility for the sake of your soul; you make a mockery out of the word of God IMO and others opinions. I say this with love because you may or may not know what the warning is in Scripture in rightly dividing the word of God; this is very serious and should never be handled inappropriately, not just you but all of us. It is a dangerous thing we do here and should be done with fear and trembling because of the potential consequences.