How does a Catholic increase the chance of getting into Heaven?

[Tanner9188]

Tanner …

This is John MacArthur’s doctrines ! Md and I have discussed this man and his beliefs before … and Md doesn’t buy into the ‘whole package’ of JM’s gospel.

Looks like you have broken your own rule … and are putting your belief in the messenger[errant human], rather than the Message [Christ].

Yes, JM teaches some things rightly … but, he also is strongly anti-Catholic, and seems you have fallen into his error regarding the Catholic Church. This is what invaribly happens when a man thinks he can interpret scriptures apart from the wisdom of the Church. Just because ‘ideas’ come into your head when you read scriptures … doesn’t mean they are from H.S.

satan is at spiritual warfare against those seeking to read the scriptures and discover the truth … and you are no match for his tactics w/o the help of the Church. Go it alone at great risk. Look how satan has divided the protestants into thousands of sects … a Tower of Babel situation where none speaks the same language or can worship in unity. Only in the Catholic Church will you discover the one truth and unity of faith, on a worldwide basis. In every country and nation … every race & creed all speak & sing the same Apostolic Gospel. We all drink from the SAME common cup & break bread, after making full confession.

God’s H.S. has brought you here to hear the Truth from the Church. Much of what you have learned in the past is gravely in error. Your defense mechanisms are protecting your protestant indoctrinations. It will take some massive ‘de-programing’ … to purge the false beliefs about the Church you have received from John Mac & others.

You have acknowledged that many here at CAF have MORE faith than you … so slow down, take your time, and work thru the doctrines of the Church one at a time. Don’t overload your brain trying to understand 2000 years of Christianity and Church teachings in several weeks. Its gonna take much ‘prayer and fasting’ to get the 500 years of protestant ‘rebellion’ misinformation out of your mind … before you can Swim the Tiber.

Many here have lived in your world and already made the transition. They can be of great help to you. Follow the Light !! Until you confess ALL the Mortal sin in your life & break free from your habitual sins … satan will have you at major disadvantage. Get serious about leading a life opposed to your Mortal sins … and you will gain traction resisting satan’s tactics. First off … work on that super-sized Pride. Admit you need help … and accept it when offered.

No rules broken; I do not take a persons word for anything, including John MacArthur, I test the things that are taught against the Scriptures to see if they are true. If so I embrace them, if not I reject them.

I can bear to listen to Father Corapi; he is IMO, one of the better “pastors”. He has 80% truth, then falls off, but if you can discern the good; he is very articulate. God bless him for this concerning the Notre Dame visit of Obama. Click here; it is great.
youtube.com/watch?v=X89_XLYbpxU (We can all learn from this; no matter the faith.)

Since God does not distinguish sins in the way Catholics do; He will look at the degree of sin and just put one in a hotter place; especially true for the religious people on that broad road who claim the name but their hearts are far from him.

What is the penalty for one single sin? Death and hell. Pretty simple; God has not made things that complicated; He know how stupid we are…LOL.

 

[CentralFLJames]

No rules broken; I do not take a persons word for anything, including John MacArthur, I test the things that are taught against the Scriptures to see if they are true. If so I embrace them, if not I reject them.

I can bear to listen to Father Corapi; he is IMO, one of the better “pastors”. He has 80% truth, then falls off, but if you can discern the good; he is very articulate. God bless him for this concerning the Notre Dame visit of Obama. Click here; it is great.
youtube.com/watch?v=X89_XLYbpxU (We can all learn from this; no matter the faith.)

Since God does not distinguish sins in the way Catholics do; He will look at the degree of sin and just put one in a hotter place; especially true for the religious people on that broad road who claim the name but their hearts are far from him.

What is the penalty for one single sin? Death and hell. Pretty simple; God has not made things that complicated; He know how stupid we are…LOL.

Nor do Catholics take self-appointed spokespersons of God’s Word who lack any apostolic pedigree or blessings and who reject large portions of what the Apostles handed down to God’s Church at THEIR WORD.

When Tanner says “I test scripture” what you really mean is you test them against YOUR PERSONAL standard from a 2,000 year distance away from the Apostolic Faith without any personal knowledge of the context of that teaching or the suffering or the faith or the glory of that teaching. In other words Tanner is his own magisterium who essentially believes in his own opinion and what “Feels” right to Tanner and deludes himself into imagining that if it makes sence to HIMSELF then its good enough for God. But Tanner has not read a single work of any of the early saints to have any personal insight into the spirituality and the faith of the early church and the continuity of faith held in the saints and The Church for 2,000 years to have a clue about what he talking about. He imagines he can come in like a student and pick up books in a library and read and peace together a book or a chapter at a time what the true teaching is and then reduce 35,000 verses down to single salvation formulas that are complete vacuous of the full teachings and have no resemblance to the faith of our fathers.

I have never heard such pompous drivel in these forums Tanner. You are not even in the same league as Fr. Corapi to be judging him. 80% truth??? What arrogance! You are so full of hubris and puffed with pride in your personal believes that you can’t even see it can you?

I don’t think you are going to last much longer in these forums Tanner.

James

 

[Tanner9188]

Someone mention my name?

“Strangely enough, the opposite charge is often heard, viz., that the confession of sin is intolerable and hard and therefore alien to the spirit of Christianity and the loving kindness of its Founder. But this view, in the first place, overlooks the fact that Christ, though merciful, is also just and exacting. Furthermore, however painful or humiliating confession may be, it is but a light penalty for the violation of God’s law. Finally, those who are in earnest about their salvation count no hardship too great whereby they can win back God’s friendship”

Christ said to the sick man of the palsy: “Thy sins are forgiven thee.” “And there were some of the scribes sitting there, and thinking in their hearts: Why doth this man speak thus? he blasphemeth. Who can forgive sins but God only?” But Jesus seeing their thoughts, said to them: “Which is easier to say to the sick of the palsy: Thy sins are forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, take up thy bed and walk? But that you may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) I say to thee: Arise, take up thy bed, and go into thy house” ( Mark 2:5-11 ; Matthew 9:2-7 ). Christ wrought a miracle to show that He had power to forgive sins and that this power could be exerted not only in heaven but also on earth.

The Lord then principally instituted the Sacrament of Penance, when, being raised from the dead, he breathed upon His disciples saying: ‘Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained’ ( John 20:22-23 ). By which action so signal and words so clear the consent of all the Fathers has ever understood that the power of forgiving and retaining sins was communicated to the Apostles and to their lawful successors, for the reconciling of the faithful who have fallen after Baptism. (Sess. XIV, c. i)

Later He says to all the Apostles : "Amen I say to you, *whatsoever *you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven ; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven " ( Matthew 18:18 ).

i take pity on you for handling the Word of God so haphazardly. You are very misguided if you believe that verse is a command to see a priest, in a confessional and ask for absolution, then do some outward expression of “I’m ashamed of my sin; look at me” ; that was a crime of the pharisees. God sees the heart. How many times did you have to force yourself to go to confession and how many times did you rationalize a reason not to go today or this day or that day; how many times have you gone reluctantly; this is what God sees that no one else sees.

 

[SteveGC]

Clever…Tanner. Clever to finally add “in man” after all the repetitive statements from you that we “have a greater faith than you”. And here we were all this time trying to connect with you, and remind you that we don’t feel superior to you in our faith, that this is not a competition…and you come back with THIS meaning all along. I love you in Christ, brother…but I don’t like you one bit.

I retract this comment if what you meant was that we believe God designed more inherent good in man than you believe. My apologies for my comments above if this is what you meant.

Of course, if you meant what I thought you meant…that we have faith in humans as opposed to Christ…then my comments stand.

 

[Tanner9188]

Hail Tanner full of grace, blessed art thou among women.

But if everyone is blessed among women, then…

Tanner cannot be called blessed among women…

2 Peter 3
But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and unto the day of eternity. Amen.

At least I can read and if you yelled loud enough I might hear you; but your Mary cannot.

 

[Tanner9188]

Just because you don’t believe the gospel of salvation “by grace through faith, the gift of God, not as a result of works,” as found in the Scriptures, doesn’t prove “sola Scriptura” weak; but it does say something about one’s "faith."Our problem with the Catholic view is that you believe that you must “do” in order to enter heaven. What we understand “the will of God” to be is to believe in the work that Jesus has DONE on the cross. There’s the chasm which separates our beliefs.Here’s your disconnect with the Scriptures. It is those who ARE saved, have been redeemed and reconciled to God through faith in Christ that now have the Spirit within them.1 Cor 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."The Spirit indwells a cleansed temple, one that has been purified of all defilement (sins) by blood and created a new creature in Christ. Entrance into heaven is based wholly on one’s identity, not one’s works.This could actually be considered a blasphemous statement if it was expressed in statement form. The exhortation to a moral lifestyle is for the redeemed to glorify God in their yet unredeemed bodies while on earth. Why is that so hard for you to understand?1 Cor 6:20 "For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body."It’s quite simple, Paul.Upon personal belief in Christ men are baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ which is the church (1 Cor. 12:13; Col. 1:18). In this sense the church is invisible.It was to be the Spirit’s work to produce the Scriptures. His was the work of salvation.It’s not “meaningless.” It’s just not the “means” of salvation. Salvation is “by grace through faith.” If you’ll take an honest look at the historical record in Scripture, only those who first believed were subsequently baptized.This was answered above: 1 Cor. 6:20Not all Protestants are Calvinists. And yet many Catholics are Augustinian in their view of election. Nevertheless, God has ordained that men enter salvation “by faith” according to His “grace” through the preaching of the propositional, gospel message of the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ. Because Catholicism has changed the method of salvation from personal faith in Christ to water baptism, it’s religious system produces its own “converts” by that sacramental method. I have never been approached (evangelized) by a Catholic to believe in Christ for salvation.Sin is always possible while in these yet unredeemed bodies. And, in reality, sinlessness is impossible. But the true believer is to walk by the Spirit (who now indwells him) and he will not carry out the desire of the flesh (Gal. 5:16).Again, your question is framed in the theology of Calvinism/Augustianism. I’m neither. But one is not saved by believing the theology of either Augustine or Calvin, just as one cannot be saved by being Catholic or Protestant.

The Spirit indwells a cleansed temple, one that has been purified of all defilement (sins) by blood and created a new creature in Christ. Entrance into heaven is based wholly on one’s identity, not one’s works.

That my Christian brother is worth saying again! As Catholics say and we agree; nothing impure can enter Heaven. We add; God cannot indwell that which He has not first cleansed by the blood of the Lamb.

That is exciting…aahhhh!!!

God, I love you and your people!

 

[SteveGC]

At least I can read and if you yelled loud enough I might hear you; but your Mary cannot.

If you only knew. Mary, and all the saints in heaven, can hear us even when all we do is think of them…which is a far cry from your capacity. Tanner, she knows what you just thought and wrote about her, too. Pity.

Why so opposed to the idea of those in heaven having the capacity to spiritually communicate with us? Does it diminish God’s Glory that His family in both realms can all speak with one another? Or…does it beautifully and supernaturally express it? Methinks the latter.

Why would you presume that those in heaven are not one with God and given the power by Him to sense things still on earth?

Do you believe in angels? Do you believe they watch over you and can sense your spiritual thoughts? If so, why not the saints?

Or do you believe Mary to not be in heaven? I cringe at your potential answer to this.

 

[ncgolf]

How many times did you have to force yourself to go to confession and how many times did you rationalize a reason not to go today or this day or that day; how many times have you gone reluctantly;

How many times did the lost son not come home and stayed away until the moment he knew what he must do. You see … we are always prodigals, though some of us don’t know it … Catholics understand better that the Father waits … sees us coming in the distance and welcomes us. What is the first thing the prodigal son did when he greeted his father … admitted his sin.

Catholics do the same thing in confession … “forgive me father for I have sinned”. How is this not biblical?

Christ gave us this parable and in the manner that Thing described gave us the formula and commisioned those with the same power to forgive as Christ has … search the Scriptures tanner … search the Scriptures. It’s all there in black and white.

The confession rebuilt his relationship … the Father never even chastized him … the only one who even had an inkling a chastisement was in order was the brother who stayed.

Luke 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

this is what God sees that no one else sees.

You do not know what God sees nor what God thinks nor what even God says so please keep those comments to yourself … they offer nothing. Who is not a Christian and does not believe that God sees all … what a useless comment.

You think we are fooling God?

 

[Tanner9188]

Tanner,

Back to the original post: How does a Catholic increase their chances of getting into heaven? The simple and straightforward answer is " by living a sacramental life and doing the will of God, which is for us to love him and our neighbors." Any knowledgable Catholic will answer essentially the same way, with more or less detail

You must first know the will of God.

Now switch the question to what Tanner believes would increase his chances of getting into heaven. I suspect that you would say that its completely out of your hands and is solely dependent on God’s plan and Jesus’ sacrifice… .Is my view of your view correct.?

I’ll let Peter answer the question, for He and I are both in full agreement; listen to Peter in Acts 15:

Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 “But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

Acts 10 -
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Perhaps you have something to argue with Peter; for we both say the same thing; yet you do not believe.

Now this makes it all very clear. Your emphasis is on the value of God’s grace. Now we would agree that without God’s grace, we are nothing. After all, he did create us and Jesus did suffer for us to redeem us after our ancestor Adam turned from God through sin.

But you take this to the extreme and make man nothing but an automaton, carrying out our preprogrammed lives to an ultimate end that we neither choose or deserve. It is a huge slight to God that you think that he isn’t capable of more than what a normal computer programmer nowadays could accomplish. It also denies the entire dignity of man. Whether you read it or not, whether you follow it or not, has no impact on your final destination, which was pre-ordained, right? What is the point of evangelization? The evangelist gets nothing by doing that, because he was already saved or condemned despite this action, and neither does the person being evangelized, who likewise was already saved or condemned regardless of his decision.

You misunderstand the relation ship between our free-will and Gods sovereignty. I accept it by faith; yet I cannot fully understand the concept, just like it is difficult to understand the Trinity, but I walk by faith; not by my own understanding, but what proceeds from the mouth of God. He says we are responsible by choice to accept or reject Him, yet He teaches He has chosen before time, a group of people, to be redeemed and that no one can resist His will or predetermined purposes. I can’t fully comprehend this; if He says that is the way it is, then who am I to question Him?

Lets say you are not comfortable with what I just wrote. Maybe you feel that man needs to make a conscious decision to believe in Jesus to be saved. Well, now the entire predestination argument falls away, because man had a choice. and once he has a choice, how could you logically argue that only this one choice counts while all others are superfluous, including the possible choice to recant the first choice to believe in Jesus.

You see, this Protestant theology is built on Sand. You know that man has dignity beyond that of a robot. and that men make choices all the time. You know that every society is based on a common morality. While it might seem nice to Give Jesus and God all the credit, it is equally wrong to give them all the responsibility for our actions. We must be responsible ourselves. This in no way demeans God and it certainly doesn’t diminish the Cross, without which man would not have the option to be saved.

Think about this one further time. Every thing God does is for a reason. He gave us the 10 commandments and the beatitudes and the works of mercy to follow because its meaningful for us to do so. Otherwise, why would he have done so? Our theology says that doing so will get you to heaven, Failure to do so will condemn you to hell. Jesus himself verified that (Matthew 19).

This where we part company; the law was to show man his sin and inability to be saved by works of the law. The beatitudes teach us how we are to come to God in His terms, by faith.

***You can see what a beautiful lie Sola Fide is. It purports to giving God all the credit, but what it does is separate Man from any motivation to do the good works which would save him. *** This is the second most effective lie the Devil has propagated. the first was, “eating the apple will make you like God, having the knowledge of good and evil.” Of course, what it really did was separate man from God by introducing him to evil. You see, Sola Fide, plays to man’s laziness, while the Apple plays to man’s pride. Sola Scriputura, also plays to man’s pride in a similar way because it makes men think that they know more than the Apostolic Church.

Actually, the effect is the polar opposite of what you stated. It is the recognition that it is all of God and none of yourself; that cause one to desire what God desires. Sola Scriptura is also the polar opposite of what you describe; the Scripture is the manual on how to live godly and was delivered by God through the prophets and apostles to His redeemed people and humility before God is essential and taught by God and self righteousness is condemned by God.

 

[paul_c]

The Spirit indwells a cleansed temple, one that has been purified of all defilement (sins) by blood and created a new creature in Christ. Entrance into heaven is based wholly on one’s identity, not one’s works.

That my Christian brother is worth saying again! As Catholics say and we agree; nothing impure can enter Heaven. We add; God cannot indwell that which He has not first cleansed by the blood of the Lamb.

That is exciting…aahhhh!!!

God, I love you and your people!

You guys are delusional. It takes much more than a declaration of Faith to make you pure enough to enter heaven. It takes prayer, sacrifice and acts of love and mercy. You must do more than acknowlege Christ. You must follow in his footsteps.

 

[holy_moly]

I can bear to listen to Father Corapi; he is IMO, one of the better “pastors”. He has 80% truth, then falls off, but if you can discern the good; he is very articulate.

Who makes you the arbiter of truth? Don’t you think it arrogant & presumptuous to accuse someone of Fr Corapi’s credentials of error tanner? I will pray that you develop a little humility brother… as well as some discernment as to ‘truth’.

 

[paul_c]

You must first know the will of God.

The will of God is to love God and your neighbor. This is not a secret.

I’ll let Peter answer the question, for He and I are both in full agreement; listen to Peter in Acts 15:

Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 “But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”
Yes we are saved by Grace, but we need to stay in the state of Grace by doing the will of God. If we sin, we lose the grace that we were given.
Tanner9188;5629543:

Acts 10 -
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

He ordered them baptized because that freed them from sin and made them part of the church. He wouldn’t have ordered them baptized if it didn’t have any effect. There’s more to it than just recieving the holy spirit, which these people already recieved.

Perhaps you have something to argue with Peter; for we both say the same thing; yet you do not believe.

Unfortunately, you only hear parts of what he says - the parts that lead you to think you that sola Scriptura , sola fide, and OSAS are correct, concepts that are completely dismissed by Peter and the church he led.

You misunderstand the relation ship between our free-will and Gods sovereignty. I accept it by faith; yet I cannot fully understand the concept, just like it is difficult to understand the Trinity, but I walk by faith; not by my own understanding, but what proceeds from the mouth of God. He says we are responsible by choice to accept or reject Him, yet He teaches He has chosen before time, a group of people, to be redeemed and that no one can resist His will or predetermined purposes. I can’t fully comprehend this; if He says that is the way it is, then who am I to question Him?

I don’t misunderstand it at all. God is capable of developing a plan that allows us total free will without impingng on his sovereignty. Why do you sell the omnipotent, omniscient God short?

This where we part company; the law was to show man his sin and inability to be saved by works of the law. The beatitudes teach us how we are to come to God in His terms, by faith.

You see, the beautitudes do teach us to come to God as do the commandments and the works of mercy. But you need to chose to follow them to get to heaven. Why do you think they can’t be folllowed?

Actually, the effect is the polar opposite of what you stated. It is the recognition that it is all of God and none of yourself; that cause one to desire what God desires. Sola Scriptura is also the polar opposite of what you describe; the Scripture is the manual on how to live godly and was delivered by God through the prophets and apostles to His redeemed people and humility before God is essential and taught by God and self righteousness is condemned by God.

You see, you describe scripture as a manual on how to live a Godly life. Well, you need to follow it. otherwise you will be condemned. And yes, humility before God is essential and it includes submitting yourself to his church, rather than beleiving that you know better than the Church he founded. Because if you actually listen to the church, you will learn the true interpretation of scriptue and thus, really know how to live a sacred life.

You are slowly getting it. Let go of your anti-Catholic biases and let the truth in. It will set you free.

 

[Tanner9188]

Tanner, it’s pretty clear you are here for no other reason than to convince yourself that you are “saved” through your own polemic works. You answer almost NONE of our questions and bounce around from topic to topic like a maniac with a scatter gun shooting from the hip at all things Catholic. Your rapid fire take-no-prisoners approach and utter ignorance of church history is just making it conspicuously obvious that you can’t answer the mail we give you and are not part of the same Christian Church of our forefathers in apostolic times. Do you think you are winning any points here or gaining converts??? Who are you trying to impress?

Don’t look know bro but you just shot yourself in the foot (again):
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_5_134.gif

Facts:

• Christians have always condemned contraceptive sex. Both forms mentioned in the Bible, coitus interruptus and sterilization, are condemned without exception (Gen. 38:9–10, Deut. 23:1). The early Fathers recognized that the purpose of sexual intercourse in natural law is procreation; contraceptive sex, which deliberately blocks that purpose, is a violation of natural law. Every church in Christendom condemned contraception until 1930, when, at its decennial Lambeth Conference, Anglicanism gave permission for the use of contraception in a few cases. Soon all Protestant denominations had adopted the secularist position on contraception. Today not one stands with the Catholic Church to maintain the ancient Christian faith on this issue. Moreover, he [Moses] has rightly detested the weasel [Lev. 11:29].

*For he means, ‘Thou shall not be like to those whom we hear of as committing wickedness with the mouth with the body through uncleanness [orally consummated sex]; nor shall thou be joined to those impure women who commit iniquity with the mouth with the body through uncleanness’" (Letter of Barnabas 10:8 [A.D. 74]).

“You may see a number of women who are widows before they are wives. Others, indeed, will drink sterility and murder a man not yet born*, [and some commit abortion]” (Jerome: Letters 22:13 [A.D. 396]).

More here: Early Church: Contraception/Sterilization

• Call no man father??!! Tanner, are you that fundamentalist???!!! Please, St. Paul called himself a father! Better read your bible Tanner. Here are some scripture points to guide you in your re-education: Call no man father?"

You are getting low into the pickle barrel now of ignorant Protestant polemics. We rarely hear these sorts of polemics anymore since even most Protestants are starting to realize how stupid they are; and we put them down so fast anyway so don’t bother anymore.

James

James;

It is a matter of one’s conscience; for you it is a sin; therefore I respect your decision. For me; I have a clear conscience before God in regard to this.

Reality is that a good portion of Catholics believe as I do. And based on the trends since my mothers generation; it appears more and more Catholics are having fewer children by choice. You do not see the 10 child family as you did 40 years ago. Perhaps there are fewer Catholics than 40 years ago; I don’t know.

 

[Tanner9188]

How do you deal with the issue of free will by baptizing infants?

OUCH!!

 

[Tanner9188]

Are you absolutely sure of that? Now you are peddling your own doctrine of eternal damnation. I sure am glad that you are not God and I am equally glad that you are just a fallible human being.

Hint: Don’t play God! He doesn’t like it when you do.

**Hello Anyone home? :idea:

I was making light of the post you sent to MD.

MD got it?**

 

[Tanner9188]

You are getting low into the pickle barrel now of ignorant Protestant polemics. We rarely hear these sorts of polemics anymore since even most Protestants are starting to realize how stupid they are; and we put them down so fast anyway so don’t bother anymore.

James

**James; you make Paul to be a liar by accusing him of calling himself “Father”.

1 Corinthians 4:15 -
For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet {you would} not {have} many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

gennaō = father: of men who fathered children AKA: “dad”

1. to be born
2. to be begotten
   a. of women giving birth to children

1 Corinthians 1:3 -
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

patēr = Father; God is called the Father

1. of the stars, the heavenly luminaries, because he is their creator, upholder, ruler
2. of all rational and intelligent beings, whether angels or men, because he is their creator, preserver, guardian and protector

If you see that it is true, then it should be embraced; if not, then reject it. Do you embrace this truth or do you reject it; what do you say? Yeah or Nay?**

 

[Thing]

i take pity on you for handling the Word of God so haphazardly. You are very misguided if you believe that verse is a command to see a priest, in a confessional and ask for absolution, then do some outward expression of “I’m ashamed of my sin; look at me” ; that was a crime of the pharisees. God sees the heart. How many times did you have to force yourself to go to confession and how many times did you rationalize a reason not to go today or this day or that day; how many times have you gone reluctantly; this is what God sees that no one else sees.

I am pointing out to you here that Christ warns people of a very real danger. Everything you have ever done Tanner in your life will be known by all. Several times you object to confession or penance for very shaky reasons, that it would be too embarrasing for you or you would feel stupid or you are afraid of what others would think of you, or what God would think of you if you went reluctantly to confess your sins.

What you are being told below is that you cannot continue in sin. Don’t be afraid of death but only fear him who has the power to cast you into hell. The only reason that could happen is if you are separated from God by sin. All your sins will be revealed to everyone when you die, nothing will be hidden. And it is at your death that you can be cast into hell.

So before your death you must strive to be free from sin. If, however you have difficulty or if you are afraid or ashamed admitting your sins in the presence of another, a priest, then how much more difficult will it be for you to face God with your sins intact.

You are taking the easiest possible road on yourself when you try and absolve yourself in private. That was not what the Apostle directed. And if you forego confession altogether you are in danger when you die of falling into the hands of the one Christ has warned us to fear.

Christ warns us against hypocrisy, the fear of the world and covetousness. He admonishes all to watch.

1 And when great multitudes stood about him, so that they trod one upon another, he began to say to his disciples: Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed: nor hidden, that shall not be known. 3 For whatsoever things you have spoken in darkness, shall be published in the light: and that which you have spoken in the ear in the chambers, shall be preached on the housetops. 4 And I say to you, my friends: Be not afraid of them who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will shew you whom you shall fear: fear ye him, who after he hath killed, hath power to cast into hell. Yea, I say to you, fear him.

 

[brb2]

Oh come now Tanner. Are you not one who always would tell us that YOU are “full of the Holy Spirit”? Please explain how YOU can get “filled” with the Holy Spirit by a Pharisaical forensic/judicial declaration of IMPUTED grace that is not in you but through some divine bookkeeping “accredited” to your account?

Why are very basic concepts and semantics that you observe everyday in nature so difficult for you? I just refuse to believe you are as Totally Depraved of intelligence as you would pretend to here. Have the reformers brain-washed you that much and poured these silly ideas into your head that you are so intellectually corrupt that you can’t think for yourself to see the contradictions they teach you? No, here I think you are either being intellectually disingenuous or else you are holding to a double standard.

Just HOW can YOU say that a semantic of pouring (transmission) of grace from one container INTO another does NOT connote a semantic of infusion? Do you understand what infusion means? Infusion has always had a semantic of ‘introducing’ a certain modifying element or quality (often through fluid/incense/smoke etc.) that imparts a new “essence” into the thing that receives it. Hey bro, think pregnancy/rebirth or change of nature like a transformational yeast that’s introduced into the crushed grape (there’s suffering again bro) that becomes “spirited” and a new substance that has certain “grape” nuances in color and flavor but is now elevated in nature to fermented wine. We often see in the bible imagery of God’s positive restorative influence on man as a “thing” we call “grace” that is transmitted as if it was poured from God to man as if man is a container (e.g. new wine skins, pots, vessels, cups, chalice, bowels etc.). This pouring and transformational/infusion imagery runs all through the Bible. It is the same imagery we see way back in Genesis when God "“breathed into man’s nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being” (Gen 2:7). It is a masculine concept/act - a creative act of God the FATHER.

What is it that Tanner has a problem with in the concept of infusion? It’s a matter of possession that bothers you isn’t it? You don’t like the idea that Christ can GIVE us grace for us to OWN just as much as we own “Freewill” to be “ours” for all eternity (assuming we don’t elect to disgrace ourselves) do you? That is Tanner’s whole problem with infused grace isn’t it? You have been taught that you are filthy rotten good for nothing flesh who must be “covered” over with the Blood of Christ to hide your filth from God. That’s a pity that you have not yet been gifted with the wisdom to accept the LARGE overarching biblical truth that Christ came to make us new! Jesus is here to make us NEW from the inside out into NEW creatures from NEW parents (Jesus as new spiritual Adam and Mary as new spiritual Eve) so we can be reborn again as perfect and blameless creatures. God is essentially DESTROYING the human race and MAKING IT NEW through a new Adam and Eve - a sinless divine-human Adam and a sinless human Eve in a cooperative Divine-Human undertaking. Dude, wake up and smell the frankincense! This is GOOD NEWS. God could have obliterated humanity but that is not God’s nature - His nature is to Create and “make all things new”.

Why do you want to do arm wrestle with God and try to limit God’s generosity as Creator when He has consistently told us “behold I make all things new” (Rev 21:5). Grace is The Christian’s Eternal Life and the substance that sanctifies, elevates our nature and deifies us into a Child of God. That grace must infuse itself into our soul/being such that we progressively become that same nature by submitting our wills to God and taking on the divine-human form of Christ himself. We will not be complete until our divinized souls are in heaven and we are reunited with our glorified bodies. While we are here on earth we must learn to walk with this divine grace and “sin no more”. If we fall, we get up, confess our mistakes and seek our Father’s forgivness in the manner He gave us.

Your fundamental issue Tanner is that you do not believe you will ever be more than just a rotten corpse of flesh who is forensically declared “justified” (no matter how much you would reek like a snow covered dung-pile in the purity of heaven in your corrupt state of sin). You have no concept of the “big picture” of just how wonderful a redeemer we have that died just so we could be ELEVATED in nature to enter into a relationship with God that is actually and really worthy of God Himself. An animal can have no relationship with God. And we fallen humans in a state of disgrace could have no relationship with God except as shameful and disobedient creatures to be pitied. But God wants friends - lovers worthy onto Himself. So, Tanner you can try to hide yourself behind the fig-leaf of a thin veneer of Christian theology just as Adam tried to hide from God behind a fig-leaf (uh, btw, remember Jesus cursed and defoliated a fig tree bro). But if you only say that “you believe” but are naked in your sins and have not repented and been forgiven God will deny your entrance into heaven - no corruption or anything worthy of a curse can be found there.

s

Tour de’ Force apologetics

Tanner & MoonDweller, you two can’t touch this ! Just try to come up with several paragraphs to justify your flawed concept of Imputed grace … that can express the beauty and substance of CFJ’s unified expose’ on INFUSED grace.

 

[Tanner9188]

Preconceived notion? You mean, like a notion preconceived since the dawn of Christianity? Well then, yes…I’m guilty as charged.

Really? You’re resorting to classic Chick-tract attacks now? Desperation at it’s finest. Have a look here.

Avoiding the question? All you did by providing that link is demonstrate the fallibility of the magisterium. Thus, by your own admission of silence, not directly answering the question yourself and not referring to Scripture for the answer; you prove yourself to be guilty of intentional disobedience to the Word of God; not before me or person, but before God.

 

[brb2]

The Bible does not “teach” Tanner. Teaching is an activity that requires a person, and is authorized by God to His flock for the building up of the Body. Jesus did not intend for the sheep to go into scripture and establish for themselves what was right doctrine. He taught the right doctrine to the Apostles, authorized and gifted them, and commissioned them to teach the truth. You are rejecting the Truth He committed to the Church, the Truth He promised to preserve among them.

The lay person is authorized to do a great many things, but this does not include separation from the Apostolic Succession. There are plenty of mysteries in the Christian faith, and mystical power as well. Frankly, I am astonished anyone would say this who also claims to believe in miracles. However, there is nothing mysterious about the authority He appointed over the Church, except in your mind. It may seem mysterious to you because you have rejected it.

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Dead on !! Vintage G-4.