How does a Catholic support a "war President?"

[water]

Before you answer my questions, ask yourself, “If my city/state had daily car bombings, independent militias, death squads, an ineffectual government, police, and army as Iraq does, what measures would I take to remedy the situation? Would I trust the foreigners who started the whole mess to fix it?”

I pray to God. Do you believe in the same God?

 

[Taoist]

I pray to God.

At this point, the afterlife sounds like a much better place to be.

Do you believe in the same God?

No. I follow the Tao, and it teaches no afterlife, no sin, no forgiveness, no guilt. It is not a religion.

 

[Liberian]

How? How does a Catholic support war funding that could go to much better uses building our own country?

Taoist,

If you will check the numbers you will find that most of the war funding has already gone to other uses such as building our own country. For example, the US government originally planned to buy one hundred B-2 bombers; in fact, it bought less than half that many. All those billions of dollars that did not go to buying the additional 70 bombers went elsewhere.

Since when did the Catholic church support war?

When it is the best option–for example, when the only alternative is the extermination of innocent people–the Catholic Church “supports” war. It’s not that war is good, it is simply that it is better than the alternatives.

• Liberian

 

[vern_humphrey]

I follow the way of the Tao as described by Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu.

Then you should do us the courtesy of studying Catholicism before you criticize it. That way you would avoid making insulting remarks that imply that somehow Jesus would not approve of the Catechism.

Please tone down the patronizing. I wrote the title.

All the more reason to stay on topic.

Maybe you can give me the short answer to the title then.

I already did.

From the Catechism:

2308 All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.

However, "as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed."106

2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

• the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

• all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

• there must be serious prospects of success;

• the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine.

**The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good. **

2310 Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense.

Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace.

My aren’t you defensive. Why are you asking me to prove my question? If I knew the answer I wouldn’t ask it.

Nice dodge. I repeat – If you say Jesus spoke against “killing in any circumstances,” it’s up to you to prove it.

So are you saying the war in Iraq is in self-defense, and therefore Catholics are justified in supporting the war?

The only people authorized to make such a judgement are those in government – read the Catechism. They have a duty and an obligation to make that decision, and to call on us to support it.

I’m still waiting for your answer to my question on:
Note that Cardinal Ratzinger said that it is permissible to differ with the Holy Father on matters of war and capital punishment, but not on abortion.

What questioni is that? I don’t see a question mark in the above quote.

 

[catsrus]

In answer to the OP, this Catholic doesn’t.

 

[IsMiseSteise]

Can I ask, why are so many people assuming the Iraqis don’t want US help?

 

[Taoist]

vern humphrey, all your shucking and jiving implies you support the war in Iraq for the reasons given in the catechism; and also by implication, that you support President Bush in the current war in Iraq because the catechism told you to follow him.

This sounds like the defense Germans gave for the Holocaust - “I was just following orders.” That’s too bad, I was hoping for honesty along the lines of catsrus.

 

[mjdonnelly]

vern humphrey, all your shucking and jiving implies you support the war in Iraq for the reasons given in the catechism; and also by implication, that you support President Bush in the current war in Iraq because the catechism told you to follow him.

This sounds like the defense Germans gave for the Holocaust - “I was just following orders.” That’s too bad, I was hoping for honesty along the lines of catsrus.

That is an ignorant statement.

Vern gave a reason why a Catholic can support the war in Iraq and it is you who is dodging providing proof for statements you made.

 

[vern_humphrey]

vern humphrey, all your shucking and jiving implies you support the war in Iraq for the reasons given in the catechism; and also by implication, that you support President Bush in the current war in Iraq because the catechism told you to follow him.

When my opponents abandon logical debate and resort to vituperation I know I have won the argument

This sounds like the defense Germans gave for the Holocaust - “I was just following orders.”

Their real justification was “We just don’t like these people” – they had abandoned logic for vituperation and hatred.

That’s too bad, I was hoping for honesty along the lines of catsrus.

So was I. Sorry to see you abandon the ruiles of gentlemanly debate.

 

[gtooke]

vern humphrey, all your shucking and jiving implies you support the war in Iraq for the reasons given in the catechism; and also by implication, that you support President Bush in the current war in Iraq because the catechism told you to follow him.

This sounds like the defense Germans gave for the Holocaust - “I was just following orders.” That’s too bad, I was hoping for honesty along the lines of catsrus.

Greetings,
I am glad you brought up the Nazi German State. A classic example of where a problem was ignored by the people and goverments of Europe, then the problem conquers them!
France, and Britian were so afraid of war, that in the early years of Nazi Germany when it could have been put down with small loss of life, they backed down. Time and time again Hitler wanted,and they gave way. Austria, Chechoslavia, crossing the Rhine, building an army, navy, air force, crushing the people and parties in Germany that disagreed with him, and other acts that were all against treaties that Germany had signed after WWI. Those who wanted peace at any price gave the world WWII, deathcamps, a strong and Imperiorist Soviet Union. It gave Japan the backing to attack in the Pacific, to kill millions of Chinesse which gave the communist in China the gound to grow into another threat to world peace. Also by not stopping the Axis early, it brought the U.S out of its isolationistic mindset and MADE US A WORLD POWER. We tried to ignore it but it was thrust on us. All because some countries in Europe failed to stop Hitler early. NEVER HAS PEACEFULL INTENTIONS KILLED SO MANY!! and from the seeds of that one failing we harvest a deadly crop today.!
That us why the militant Moslem movement must be stopped now. Because it will cost so much more later.

 

[bekalc]

UH. Gtooke, one of the reasons Britian and France did not want to go to war with Germany was because they weren’t prepared military for war. Don’t you think that before Germany went out and started breaking resolutions, they hadn’t already built up their military and made sure they were prepared for war?? If anything after Hitler took over certain parts of Europe, his military was already getting a bit over extended, so it might have been easier for him to do away with Britian and France first. Thus, having no opposition later.

 

[jman507]

vern humphrey, all your shucking and jiving implies you support the war in Iraq for the reasons given in the catechism; and also by implication, that you support President Bush in the current war in Iraq because the catechism told you to follow him.

This sounds like the defense Germans gave for the Holocaust - “I was just following orders.” That’s too bad, I was hoping for honesty along the lines of catsrus.

“I was just following orders” does that mean that the German morally agreed with the order? I think that part of what is unstated is that the person disagreed morally, but the orders were of more importance.

If Vern says that his support is fully acceptable in his judgement due to principles laid out in the Catechism, he is not following orders, but is making a justifiable judgement by his standards. The Catholic Church is not able to say objectively one cannot support a “war president,” it is left up to subjective judgment against objective principles. It is quite possible two people who consider themselves Catholics can come down on both sides of an example.

Besides I doubt many in this thread have been ordered to support a “war president.” The Catechism did not a person to come down one way or another. While you may say Vern’s use of the Catechism is shucking and jiving, maybe you should consider the relationship of the Catechism of the Catholic Church is to the Catholic Church. It is summary of the principles of the Catholic Church. It doesn’t tell a person what to do, it tells what principles a Catholic should use to decide on actions.

Then again I think your first paragraph really does sum up why a Catholic can support a “war president,” although the shucking and jiving part so to say poisons the pot. You asked the question, and I think you know how Vern can as well as other Catholics can honestly do so with moral reasoning.

Sorry Vern to be talking about you third person, it’s not a good practice in this forum, but please if I got the stances from your past posts wrong, please correct me.

 

[gtooke]

UH. Gtooke, one of the reasons Britian and France did not want to go to war with Germany was because they weren’t prepared military for war. Don’t you think that before Germany went out and started breaking resolutions, they hadn’t already built up their military and made sure they were prepared for war?? If anything after Hitler took over certain parts of Europe, his military was already getting a bit over extended, so it might have been easier for him to do away with Britian and France first. Thus, having no opposition later.

Greetings,

France had the strongest army in Europe at the time. They had more tanks, divisions, aircraft and navy. Britian had a small standing army but the had the greatest navy in the world. Even when Hitler attacked France, his forces were smaller, just better led by the german generals. The generals in Germany knew that the French could defeat them, they planned to overthrow Hitler but as the allies gave in to Hitlers threats they backed out. If you want to learn more, I can recommend a writer of the time. William Shirer. His “Rise and Fall of the Third Riech, and The collapse of the Third Republic” are the best out there. Mr. Shirer is not a fan of the Catholic Church and he blames it for some of the problems in France, but he was in Europe at that time, and is a great source. But I will state as FACT, France alone could have stopped Germany up to 1938, She had the allies in eastern Europe and together would have stopped Hitler before it came to a world war. As to France and Britian first, Hitlers conquests before attacking France was,the Rhineland March 1936, Austria March 1938, Sudetenland Oct 1938, Czechoslovakia March 1939, Poland Sept 1939. During each of these invasions Hitler could have been stopped without a world war.

 

[b_justb]

vern humphrey, all your shucking and jiving implies you support the war in Iraq for the reasons given in the catechism; and also by implication, that you support President Bush in the current war in Iraq because the catechism told you to follow him.

This sounds like the defense Germans gave for the Holocaust - “I was just following orders.” That’s too bad, I was hoping for honesty along the lines of catsrus.

So you’re looking for a given response that is in tune with your own personal feelings on the war in Iraq and not honest ones? If you read the quotes from the Catechism given, the only real question is to those that oppose the war effort in Iraq that are Catholic and US Citizens: “If the Catholic Catechism sates that one must support the government that declares war and you are opposing the war effort, how do you call yourself ‘Catholic’?”

“No fight; no blame.” – Tao Te Ching 8 line 11. Lao Tzu

Why then as a self professed follower of The Way do you fight and blame?

 

[mlchance]

vern humphrey, all your shucking and jiving implies you support the war in Iraq for the reasons given in the catechism; and also by implication, that you support President Bush in the current war in Iraq because the catechism told you to follow him.

This sounds like the defense Germans gave for the Holocaust - “I was just following orders.” That’s too bad, I was hoping for honesty along the lines of catsrus.

Wow. A racist phrase followed by labeling another a Nazi all in one post. How utterly bankrupt.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[contramundum7]

read history a bit and you will find the church its self was involved in and funded wars. rememeber something called the crusades? we have to remember that peace is not the mere absence of war. before our revolutionary war, there may have not been a war, but there was no peace either by any stretch of the imagination.

if i recall what i read correctly, the crusades were not always endorsed by the Church, only by members therein…
Also, people exaggerate all the “evils” the members of our Church have been involved with throughout history. People r evil, in and out of the Church, but the Church & her teachings do not change…

 

[contramundum7]

How? How does a Catholic support war funding that could go to much better uses building our own country? Since when did the Catholic church support war?

I don’t recall the Catechism taking a stand on any particular war…
i distrust Bush, even though he was better than the alternative Kerry who doesn’t even know who he is (Catholic or heathen or pagan…). Maybe the U.S was somewhat justified 2b in Iraq, etc… but my question is: Why do we always go to the political/economic aid of a country that has something we are interested in (oil, etc.). There are a lot of other countries where there is oppression & corruption, etc… but we ignore them because they r poor & have nothing we want…

 

[Steven_Merten]

How? How does a Catholic support war funding that could go to much better uses building our own country? Since when did the Catholic church support war?

Hello Taoist,

From the time of Constantine to 1870 (over a millenium) the Church spent a great deal of Church money, and other perks, to hire the secular world to protect States of the Church properties with their armies in war.

It was not until the tenth century that the papacy was selected by the Cardinals. One of the perks that secular leaders were given by the Church, to insure they would send their armys to fight for the Church in war to protect States of the Church, was that they could choose who would be Pope. Promises of eternal life, from the Church, were also given as a perk to those secular leaders who sent their armies to fight for States of the Church.

1870, the fall of States of the Church, was not that far back. It was around the time of our American civil war. Since that time, most, if not all Popes have been pacifists never backing any wars. Before that time, when the Church possessed land, a lot of land, the biggest land owner in Italy, most Popes backed wars to protect their boundaries.

Please visit: States of the Church
newadvent.org/cathen/14257a.htm

 

[Veritas41]

How? How does a Catholic support war funding that could go to much better uses building our own country? Since when did the Catholic church support war?

How do Catholics support abortion presidents? More Americans have died through legal abortion than all the wars we’ve fought combined

 

[vern_humphrey]

How do Catholics support abortion presidents? More Americans have died through legal abortion than all the wars we’ve fought combined

Indeed – if you add all the casualties we’ve sustained in all our wars and all those we’ve inflicted, it’s only a fraction of the 40 million + deaths by abortion in this country.

Yet Catholics will vote for pro-abortion politicians!