How does a dead saint do you any good?

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Disciple87 said:
How do you explain this? I am confused

ā€œThe living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.ā€ ā€œThere is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.ā€ Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10. ā€œThe dead praise not the Lord.ā€ **Psalm 115:17. **
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Do not take scripture quotes in isolation and attempt to develop a coherent theology / doctrineā€¦

The scriptures [Hebrew and New Testament] are a compilation of writings [inspired by God] that represents the faith of a community of believers - Godā€™s revealing of Himself to man over time. It is limited by the writers ability to write of the infinate - even though inspired, by language in general [and for us today by translation and the development of word meanings over time - and by our ability to interpret the scriptures today that were composed for a different time and a different culture.

That is why we have the Church [whose book we call the ā€œBibleā€]
to assist us in the interpretationsā€¦The Church gave us the scriptures, if we can trust that they handed on autentically inspired writingsā€¦then we should trust them to ead us in the use of those same passagesā€¦
 
Others have mentioned the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man and the Martyrs of Revelation: Lets look at the passages in greater detail:

This passage proves more then that the dead hear the pleas of others. This passage proves that they are aware, hear, see and have recognition that is out of the normā€¦

Neither Lazarus nor the Rich Man would [or could have known what Abraham looked like - yet they recognize Abraham for who he is and his role in salvation history - Lazarus lies in the bosom of Abraham - that is probably how you came to realize he is ā€˜righteousā€™ a term used to describe Abraham.[/COLOR]

Now Lazarus is with Abraham; you might concluded [expect] that introductions were made. But the Rich Man is in a totally different place and yet he can see across the chasm!

The Rich Man is aware of his own circumstance, that the conditions for Lazarus are different and that his brothers are headed for the same fate as his. The Rich Man is evidently aware that they [his brothers] are unrepentant and still sinners. He [the Rich Man] has concern for his brothers and attempts to intercede on their behalf. It is not necessary for his appeal to be successful to illustrate that a position holding that the dead are unknowing, unaware, donā€™t care, etc does not make sense

This is really strikingā€¦it is compelling for the belief in the Communion of Saints, God as the God of the Living, Intercessory prayer, all of it. That Lazarus was not allowed to ā€˜personallyā€™ leave and go to the brothers to tell them the Rich Manā€™s fate is not relevantā€¦

Righteousness or even being in Heaven does not see to factor in the ability to be aware after this life has ended and the next one startsā€¦as the Rich Man is neither oneā€¦

The other passage is in Revelation; where the martyrs cry out for vindicationā€¦Jesus tells them that there will be more martyrs joining them and that their vindication will come [Godā€™s timing!!!]. Again this illustrates that there is awareness and communications. The prayers of those on earth carried forth and presented to God in bowlsā€¦they are offering the prayers to God, the prayes are not passing dirently from the one who prays to God but are being presented to God in bowls that are carriedā€¦
 
I tell you I am not making doctrine out of one passage, there are many. Even if it was one, this is the word of God, if he tells me I shall live tomorrow, I will take his word for it. I myself am stuck between the two ideas. You canā€™t deny there are passages for both ideas so what are we suppose to assume? Honestly I dont see the point in waiting around in lala land for the second coming, this might be Gods plan, when we die it will be almost be like an instant resurrection, becasue we were not conscious, no dreams, as if we didnt exist. It will be like being born againā€¦

We wait in our graves?, John 5:28

"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come outā€”those who have done good** will rise **to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Then again could this be the moment when Jesus is resurrected? But then do we really even die if we rise when we die? In order to rise we have to be dead firstā€¦
 
The saints have been granted eternal life in Christ.

Letā€™s explore the word ā€œeternalā€: Many people confuse this with ā€œforeverā€. But thereā€™s a difference. Forever has a beginning, while eternal does not. Forever is linear, while circular doesnā€™t even begin to describe eternity. Itā€™s much more than that. It encompases all of reality, all of creation, all of time, and beyond.

The saints are alive in a way we canā€™t imagine. Their prayers have a power we canā€™t comprehend. Their will is in perfect harmony with the will of God. If they pray with you and for you, Godā€™s will is already with you, because your prayer conforms to the will of God. They even pray for us when we donā€™t ask them to.

Every prayer is answered. But the answer isnā€™t always ā€œyesā€. And even when it is, it often goes unperceived by us. Thank God for all the blessings He gives you that youā€™ll never know about.
 
Disciple87 said:
I tell you I am not making doctrine out of one passage, there are many. Even if it was one, this is the word of God, if he tells me I shall live tomorrow, I will take his word for it. I myself am stuck between the two ideas. You canā€™t deny there are passages for both ideas so what are we suppose to assume? Honestly I dont see the point in waiting around in lala land for the second coming, this might be Gods plan, when we die it will be almost be like an instant resurrection, becasue we were not conscious, no dreams, as if we didnt exist. It will be like being born againā€¦

We wait in our graves?, John 5:28

"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come outā€”those who have done good** will rise **to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Then again could this be the moment when Jesus is resurrected? But then do we really even die if we rise when we die? In order to rise we have to be dead firstā€¦
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John 5:28-29 is talking about the final judgement.

Here is a quick summary:
  1. First death is when any human dies.
  2. First resurrection is when the soul of the Christian saint goes to Heaven at the first death
  3. Second resurrection is when all are raised to be judged at the final judgement
  4. Second death is for those who are damned, judgement in the lake of fire at the great white throne.
 
Jesus descended to the dead (hell/hades/sheol) after His death and prior to His Resurrection to preach the gospel to them so the righteous could ascend to heaven, whose gates He opened. So O readings showing the dead in a place of sleep do not mean they are still there. The gates of heaven were closed before God became man and dwelt among us.

Many protestant friends have expressed sorrow at the passing of a loved one whose prayers would no longer be available to the loved ones left behind. God is Love. If humans can love and support with prayer, it is obvious that those who are purged of all attachment to sin, would love better and their prayers would be more effective, not less.

Also, being purged of earthly and sinful attachments they would love God more perfectly, wanting what He wants most: that all would be saved. So, yes, they would pray for love of those left behind, but most especially for love of God. That is also why we count on our brothers and sisters who have gone before us, our patron saints and our Blessed Mother!

May God continue to bless you on your journey toward Him, and ask your questions! I certainly asked more than my share when I was wrestling like Jacob with Godā€™s Truth!

šŸ™‚ In Christā€™s peace and joy,

Robin L. in TX
 
bapcath said:
I understand that the catholics donā€™t pray to the saints. they ask the saints to pray with them. I am still having difficulty with this because arenā€™t the saints dead. Only a few people went to heaven while they were still alive. arenā€™t the rest waiting to rise up at the end of times along with the living?
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Souls cannot die. The soul of each saint is alive and well in heaven. The end of time will see the resurrection of the body, not of the soul.
 
We are One Family in Christ in Heaven and on Earth

Matt. 27:52; ā€œtombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raisedā€

Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the ā€œcommunion of saints.ā€ There cannot be a ā€œcommunionā€ if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.

Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.

Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.

Luke 15:7,10 ā€“ if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.

Our Subordinate Mediation / Intercessory Prayer

1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paulā€™s teaching about Jesus as the ā€œone mediator,ā€ Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christā€™s role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christā€™s work because we are Godā€™s ā€œfellow workersā€ and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

1 Tim 2:5-6 - therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the most glory. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participation.

God bless you,

Ryan šŸ™‚
 
bapcath said:
I understand that the catholics donā€™t pray to the saints. they ask the saints to pray with them. I am still having difficulty with this because arenā€™t the saints dead. Only a few people went to heaven while they were still alive. arenā€™t the rest waiting to rise up at the end of times along with the living?
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A ā€œdead saintā€ is a contradiction in terms.
 
Church_Militant said:
Ever been to a race? The witnesses (generally known as fans!) do not just sit there stoically, now do they? Indeed not! They intercede (sometimes called ā€œcheeringā€ā€¦) and loudly for their respective people.

How much more would the saints in heaven intercede (Oh look! Evidence for the intercession of Saints!) for those of us still running our races, especially since that race has such eternal consequences?
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I liked the way you put this. The whole post is good but I especially liked this part. Very well done.
 
donā€™t Protestants believe a guardian angel is standing next to them? canā€™t these angels hear them and intercede to God for them? are these angels not a part of heaven? are saints not a part of heaven? i would believe it is likely those non-angels in heaven can intercede for us as well. weā€™re all connected to each other, but it seems when people refuse to acknowledge this logic, they are disconnecting themselvesā€¦
 
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