How does a Protestant or noncatholic follow John 4:23-24

[Deacon110]

So I hope you can explain to me your Traditions from the apostles that are not written but Orally handed down through Sacred Traditon and Sacred Scripture, Now I should warn you, you cannot have Sacred Tradition without Sacred Scripture, they both go hand in hand, according to the Roman Catholic Church.

Gabriel our church does not disregard sacred tradition either. Things like Lent, Advent, Trinity etc. etc. are not scriptural per se, but the elements have a scriptural basis.

Now I would ask you to please tell me one sacred tradition that the RCC church practices that is not contained anywhere in scripture, has no scriptural reference, and was taught only orally? I’ve asked this before and no Roman Catholic on this board could answer it. I’ve always had people dance around it claiming such things as the Trinity, but then admitting that the elements of the Trinity are contained in scripture.

So I ask again since you threw this famous quote out that the RCC likes to use frequently to justify they only, have the fullness of the truth. Please tell me what is completely oral and is not contained anywhere in scripture. Please just name one and I’ll be happy.

PEACE

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gabriel you’re embedding 2 responses into 1 making it difficult to follow.

So let’s start from square one which is your orginal question regarding John 4:23-24. We’ll set aside any pre-conceived notions about what was inferred or implied or derogatory because it was done by both sides. I would certainly also appreciate if you would stop taking the I did nothing wrong position as this post was mis-interpreted by many and not the few. Fair enough??

So let’s start with what Jesus is referring to here in this small section of John. We can’t interpret John 4: 23-24 without looking at the previous verses to find out what is going on here. This is called proof-texting and leads to mis-interpretation.

The samaritan women is talking about which place is the right place to worship in which Jesus responds that the Jews know all about the Father and they (the samaritans) know little. But then Jesus continues and communicates that the time is coming and in fact is here now, referring to HIMSELF, that true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and Truth.

So what does this all mean? Basically Jesus is implying that the old system of sacrifices will no longer be applicable as a form of worship and that the new form will be in spirit and truth. What is the truth? Jesus obviously and the worship will be more of a spiritual nature, that of excepting Jesus as your savior. If you keep reading this chapter you will notice that the samaritan seems confuesd about what Jesus is saying and mentions that the Christ is coming and will explain everything. Jesus reveals HIMSELF as the Messiah to the Samaritan woman which circles back to verse 23 that the time is here now. This is what Jesus has been hinting at all along.

So how do we at our local church follow this spiritual worship?? Well as I said we worship in song, prayer, scripture, the Lord’s supper etc. etc. I couldn’t have been clearer to you than I was before. I refuse to go into a debate about the inaccuracies of your other comments. It’s just a useless conversation.

PEACE

Fair enough Deacon. Thank you for your response, but I was expecting more of a response from your community, something along the lines of structure, formalities, and how does one prepare the community for the worship in Spirit and Truth. And how does one enter into The Spirit and Truth? I will assume, your enlightened by song, scripture, Lords supper? but you give no details as to how this is done, or is every one different?

I do feel alot more at ease now that we are cleared up, I hope to speak more with you.

Peace be with you also:thumbsup:

 

[Deacon110]

Fair enough Deacon. Thank you for your response, but I was expecting more of a response from your community, something along the lines of structure, formalities, and how does one prepare the community for the worship in Spirit and Truth. And how does one enter into The Spirit and Truth? I will assume, your enlightened by song, scripture, Lords supper? but you give no details as to how this is done, or is every one different?

I do feel alot more at ease now that we are cleared up, I hope to speak more with you.

Peace be with you also:thumbsup:

Well I’m not sure how you want me to answer as I’m slightly confused. So help me out here.

I remember growing up RC we didn’t have anything specifically that prepared us for worship as you say. This is where I lose you. Give me some examples and then I can probably answer better.

PEACE

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Well I’m not sure how you want me to answer as I’m slightly confused. So help me out here.

I remember growing up RC we didn’t have anything specifically that prepared us for worship as you say. This is where I lose you. Give me some examples and then I can probably answer better.

PEACE

Well as you might know, we enter the house of God, we cleanse ourselves with holy water before entering, then the procession of the Word of God we all stand in reference, for God’s Gospel, there are candles, a consecrated priest, altar servers and the two witnessess, Lectors in the procession, these symbolize the law and the prophets, during the procession we sing a song from scriptural psalms that relate to the Gospel of the day, then we as one body through out the world confess our sins before God,In the name of trinity,( the penitential rite) for nothing unclean can enter before his throne, then we proceed with a prayer from the priest. we all exclaim after the prayer a great Amen!, then we begin to hear from the two witnesses the Law of God, then his prophets, then the psalms of king david are sung, followed by a reading from the epistles from an eyewitness account to Jesus of what the law and prophets just spoke of, then after hearing from an eyewitness, a pause, and a great ALLELUIAH is exclaimed by and we all stand in respect for our lord Jesus is coming present in persona Christi by his virgin consecrated priest, to hear is Gospel come alive and made present to every Catholic around the world will hear the same Gospel proclaimed on Sunday from sunrise to the sun setting. The Choir representing the angels in heaven begin the alleluiah, earth the body of Christ ,his church responds alleluiah, just like in revelations 19, Now I will stop here, as an introduction to the liturgy of the Word of God worshipped universally around the World , preparing ourselves to enter into the holy of holies.

A description along those lines how do you worship God as a community? you mentioned the scriptures by how are the scriptures reverenced? is there any posture, or formalities you follow?

 

[Non_Serviam]

So I hope you can explain to me your Traditions from the apostles that are not written but Orally handed down through Sacred Traditon and Sacred Scripture, Now I should warn you, you cannot have Sacred Tradition without Sacred Scripture, they both go hand in hand, according to the Roman Catholic Church.

So you are still referring to both Scripture and Tradition-I’ll repost my question that you haven’t answered and refer you back to Paul to consider him some more

As to Sacred Tradition I refer you to 2 Thessalonians 2:15 NAB

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

Sacred Tradition
(emphasis mine)

 

[jttierney1]

Now I would ask you to please tell me one sacred tradition that the RCC church practices that is not contained anywhere in scripture, has no scriptural reference, and was taught only orally?

Why would we want to???
Doctrinally, everything that I know of can be backed up w/in the church both orally and scriptural! So what’s the problem? As you stated earlier, the trinity can be found w/in the bible (although I think we’d both agree not explicitly but implicitly).

Paz de Cristo

 

[Deacon110]

Well as you might know, we enter the house of God, we cleanse ourselves with holy water before entering, then the procession of the Word of God we all stand in reference, for God’s Gospel, there are candles, a consecrated priest, altar servers and the two witnessess, Lectors in the procession, these symbolize the law and the prophets, during the procession we sing a song from scriptural psalms that relate to the Gospel of the day, then we as one body through out the world confess our sins before God,In the name of trinity,( the penitential rite) for nothing unclean can enter before his throne, then we proceed with a prayer from the priest. we all exclaim after the prayer a great Amen!, then we begin to hear from the two witnesses the Law of God, then his prophets, then the psalms of king david are sung, followed by a reading from the epistles from an eyewitness account to Jesus of what the law and prophets just spoke of, then after hearing from an eyewitness, a pause, and a great ALLELUIAH is exclaimed by and we all stand in respect for our lord Jesus is coming present in persona Christi by his virgin consecrated priest, to hear is Gospel come alive and made present to every Catholic around the world will hear the same Gospel proclaimed on Sunday from sunrise to the sun setting. The Choir representing the angels in heaven begin the alleluiah, earth the body of Christ ,his church responds alleluiah, just like in revelations 19, Now I will stop here, as an introduction to the liturgy of the Word of God worshipped universally around the World , preparing ourselves to enter into the holy of holies.

A description along those lines how do you worship God as a community? you mentioned the scriptures by how are the scriptures reverenced? is there any posture, or formalities you follow?

You went into alot about the structure of the mass which I was already pretty familiar with, coming from a Roman Catholic background. I didn’t realize you wanted to know the structure of our service. But first let me ask you why this is important?

 

[Deacon110]

Why would we want to???

Don’t dance around the question I have almost 40 years of Roman Catholic background so this doesn’t fool me.

Doctrinally, everything that I know of can be backed up w/in the church both orally and scriptural! So what’s the problem? As you stated earlier, the trinity can be found w/in the bible (although I think we’d both agree not explicitly but implicitly).

Paz de Cristo

Yes what is the problem? I think you are coming into the conversation a little late. The implication is that there is sacred tradition not contained in the Bible. That simply is not the case as I have never found it.

There’s a big difference between scripture and sacred tradition. Scripture contains the absolute truth of our beliefs and morals. Tradition is how you do it. Example. It is a doctrinal truth that Christ instituted the Lord’s supper and asked us to do it in Anamnesis (greek for remembrance meaning memorial) of HIM. Sacred tradition may be that you do it every week. It used to be that you accepted it on your knees by mouth only. Then it evolved to standing up. Then to taking it by hand.

Now the Pope declared that the host was sufficient and contained both elements of the body and blood. That’s why many RCCs don’t serve wine to the congregation. I must say this is found nowhere in scripture and violates what Jesus instituted. The cup itself represents the covenant which is in Jesus blood. How can you not allow everyone to receive it:shrug:

PEACE

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

You went into alot about the structure of the mass which I was already pretty familiar with, coming from a Roman Catholic background. I didn’t realize you wanted to know the structure of our service. But first let me ask you why this is important?

Its important because Jesus say’s “you MUST worship God in Spirit and Truth” Can you describe where and how this is accomplished in your church service? Do you call your worship a service?

You may be familiar with the Mass, but do you know what it means? thats the difference between Catholics who remain and Catholics that get swayed by every wind of Doctrine that comes their way.

The Mass is structured, so that the one and only Sacrifice of the Lamb of God, that takes away the sins of the World, fulfills the old covenant sacrifices, our Mass mirrors the old covenant liturgy, we have the word of God, his ark of the covenant, and a once and for all unblemished Lamb sacrafice, that only the family of the high priest are allowed to consume. Old testament liturgy fulfilled through our Precious Lord Jesus, that offers a body prepared by God himself.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gabriel our church does not disregard sacred tradition either. Things like Lent, Advent, Trinity etc. etc. are not scriptural per se, but the elements have a scriptural basis.

Now I would ask you to please tell me one sacred tradition that the RCC church practices that is not contained anywhere in scripture, has no scriptural reference, and was taught only orally?

**You are trying to confuse the understanding of Sacred Tradition taught by the Catholic church With your own understanding of Sacred Tradition. The Catholic Church teaches that you cannot have Sacred Tradition without Sacred Scripture, they both support each other, Your challenge to prove Sacred Tradition without Sacred Scripture is your own confused understanding of Sacred Tradition Sacred Scripture.

Besides what ever happened to your Sola Fe, Sola Scriptura theology, when did you start believing in Sacred Traditions? Did your protestant theology change again? Or are you convinced of the Catholic churches teachings, of Sacred Tradition. Your founders did not believe this doctrine when did it change?

Items that the Catholic Church teaches through Sacred Tradition that are supported by Sacred Scripture, The Eucharist is truly the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ, Mary the Mother of God, Mary perpetual Virgin, Mary in heaven, The saints in heaven, The Doctrine of the Communion of Saints, Angels, The Mass as described from the gospels, epistles, and the book of Revelation, Baptism, Confirmation, Holy orders, Bishops, presbyters, Peter, our Pope, Sunday Worship comes from the Catholic church, Fasting 40 days during lent, before the passion of Jesus Christ,.

I can go on and on, but if I know you, you will think of some reason to discredit this 2000 years of Christianity. But the only argument you raise is your own, it has no authority to it, Just your own interpretation of Scripture, and your own theology belief, If I would guess, there isnt 5 churches from protestant tradition that would agree with your arguments you place here about the Catholic Church., And if by chance you found 5 non denominations to agree with you, I could find 10 protestant denominations to diagree with you. Truth is not divided, because a kingdom divided amongst itself will fall. **

I’ve asked this before and no Roman Catholic on this board could answer it. I’ve always had people dance around it claiming such things as the Trinity, but then admitting that the elements of the Trinity are contained in scripture.

And you disagreed with the Trinity answer? If you ask the correct understanding of Sacred Tradition from the Church, and not your point of view of Sacred Tradition, then Trinity holds up to Sacred Tradtion, Sacred Scripture according to Roman Catholic Teaching.

So I ask again since you threw this famous quote out that the RCC likes to use frequently to justify they only, have the fullness of the truth.

**The Roman Catholic Church not only claims the fullness of Truth, she has the fullness of Truth, we have the body, blood, soul, and divinilty of Jesus Christ, what do you have as your truth? **

Please tell me what is completely oral and is not contained anywhere in scripture. Please just name one and I’ll be happy.

This is a confused definition of Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, you stated above, you need to get the correct understanding what the Catholic Church teaches, stop spreading lies about her teachings on these forums, The Catholic Church teaches you cant have Sacred Tradition without Sacred Scripture, I hope you are clear on this.

PEACE

 

[Deacon110]

Its important because Jesus say’s “you MUST worship God in Spirit and Truth” Can you describe where and how this is accomplished in your church service? Do you call your worship a service?

It’s a worship service. And without getting into alot of detail like I said we worship in song, prayer, the Lord’s supper. etc. etc. I won’t layout the structure of it to you because I think it’s irrelevant. If you really want to know I can certainly oblige

You may be familiar with the Mass, but do you know what it means? thats the difference between Catholics who remain and Catholics that get swayed by every wind of Doctrine that comes their way.

Mass means the sacrifice of Jesus and yes I’m intimately aware of what’s supposed to be happening during the mass. I don’t agree with it. Again the didache has no reference to this kind of structure and certainly never refers to any kind of sacrifice taking place.

The Mass is structured, so that the one and only Sacrifice of the Lamb of God, that takes away the sins of the World, fulfills the old covenant sacrifices,

This makes no sense. What does structure have to do with Jesus one time sacrifice for our sins? And Jesus doesn’t fulfill any old covenant sacrifices. Jesus fulfills Old Testament prophecy not sacrifices. Jesus became the one time perfect sacrifice.

our Mass mirrors the old covenant liturgy, we have the word of God, his ark of the covenant, and a once and for all unblemished Lamb sacrafice,

No you don’t have the ark of the covenant. The ark of the covenant has never been found. Do you even know what it is?? It’s the physical structure that Bezalel built to hold the tablets that contained the 10 commandments. The second set that Moses retrieved from GOD after the golden calf incident. If you personally have the ark then I’m sure it would have been on the news.

And we too have the word of GOD by the way.

that only the family of the high priest are allowed to consume. Old testament liturgy fulfilled through our Precious Lord Jesus, that offers a body prepared by God himself.

The family of the High Priest? I’m assuming you are referring to the family and body of Christ. If that’s the case we are a part of that family and body as well at our church. We’re not eating Jesus physically because he doesn’t tell us to. Rememeber the flesh means nothing, it is the spirit that gives life.

PEACE

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

So you are still referring to both Scripture and Tradition-I’ll repost my question that you haven’t answered and refer you back to Paul to consider him some more

Since Paul says Sacred Tradition is contained in his Epistles, where do you get the authority to describe it as two separate things?

You asked the question above, you did not ask for a definition of Sacred Scripture/Sacred Tradition from the Catholic church teachings, which is you cannot have Sacred Traditions without Sacred Scripture. That cleared up, I gave you John 21:24 to answer your question above, can you define what John is talking about? below please read

John 21:24… “It is this disciple who testifies to these things and has written them, and we know that his testimony is true. THERE ARE ALSO MANY OTHER THINGS THAT JESUS DID, BUT IF THESE WERE TO BE DESCRIBED INDIVIDUALLY, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written” Thus oral Sacred Traditions handed down to the Catholic church from the Apostles.Do you subcsribe to the true Sacred Traditions from the Apostles or just the ones that are written, because if you do, not all got written, so maybe your Traditions are not complete?

**In other words the Sacred Traditions of The liturgy of the Word and the liturgy of the Eucharist in the Mass, as well as many other Sacred Traditions that got handed down orally and has the support of Sacred Scripture.

Now by you getting of topic for What ever reason, is leading me to believe you are like the Samaritans, because as Jesus quotes " you people do not understand: we worship what we understand" How is this so, by our Sacred Traditions, and Sacred Scriptures, and these Sacred Traditions have not Changed over the last 2 millenium.

My question is, how do you worship in Spirit and Truth? do you follow the Sacred Traditions given to the Catholic church from the Apostles, or a reading of Sacred Scripture guessing at what the Apostles orally handed down?

This I dont know or understand what your worship in Spirit and Truth is? Can you show what is your Sacred Tradition in worship?**

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

It’s a worship service. And without getting into alot of detail like I said we worship in song, prayer, the Lord’s supper. etc. etc. I won’t layout the structure of it to you because I think it’s irrelevant. If you really want to know I can certainly oblige

Yes please oblige me, I am very interested how your community comes to the reality of Spirit and Truth?

**But before you do, can you answer my question from my previous post, Do you believe when Jesus in talking about Spirit he means symbolically, or Litterally?

I will be happy to explain the fulfillment of Jesus Sacrafice fulfillment of the old covenant sacrafices, on another post following ok, also I will show where the ark is and who found it, and yes it did make big news, because when it was revealed the Church got persecuted even more, so as to destroy her, but Jesus was with her through thick and thin, any way. Peace be with you **

 

[Deacon110]

You are trying to confuse the understanding of Sacred Tradition taught by the Catholic church With your own understanding of Sacred Tradition. The Catholic Church teaches that you cannot have Sacred Tradition without Sacred Scripture, they both support each other, Your challenge to prove Sacred Tradition without Sacred Scripture is your own confused understanding of Sacred Tradition Sacred Scripture.

Ahh no it’s not really. I certainly am not confused but it appears you are. I understand that tradition should be supported by scripture. Some traditions of the RCC cannot be supported by scripture and that is where the problem lies. The implication that you make is that there are traditions that fall outside of scripture. I asked you to give me an example of just one. So I’ll ask again. Tell me something that is sacred tradition that is not sacred scripture??

Besides what ever happened to your Sola Fe, Sola Scriptura theology, when did you start believing in Sacred Traditions? Did your protestant theology change again? Or are you convinced of the Catholic churches teachings, of Sacred Tradition. Your founders did not believe this doctrine when did it change?

You must have me confused with someone else. I never said I, nor my church ruled out sacred tradition. It depends on what you are talking about. I’m a firm believer that whatever you preach as relevant to salvation better be contained in scripture. When someone tells me there is sacred tradition relevant to salvation that falls outside of scripture, I basically say rubbish.

Items that the Catholic Church teaches through Sacred Tradition that are supported by Sacred Scripture, The Eucharist is truly the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ

Scripture doesn’t teach this.

Mary the Mother of God, Mary perpetual Virgin, Mary in heaven, The saints in heaven

Scripture doesn’t teach this either. Show me scripture that says Mary is in Heaven. We may believe she is but it’s not supported by scripture.

The Doctrine of the Communion of Saints, Angels, The Mass as described from the gospels, epistles, and the book of Revelation,

The mass is not scriptural either. Scripture never references anything close to a mass. Saints and Angels? Of course. All believers in Christ are saints.

Baptism, Confirmation, Holy orders, Bishops, presbyters, Peter, our Pope, Sunday Worship comes from the Catholic church, Fasting 40 days during lent, before the passion of Jesus Christ,.

Baptism? Yes scriptural. Confirmation? No not scriptural. Show it to me chapter and verse. Bishops and Prebyters? Yes scriptural although Paul calls the Presbyters Elders. But I’ll give that to you. Priest by the way is not scriptural. NT that is. The positions outlined by Paul in his letters to Timothy and Titus never contain the word Priest. Actually do you know what a scriptural requirement of a Presbyter/Elder and Bishop is?? The husband of one wife. Do they have to be married? No. But can they be? Yes. Hmm now let’s look at the RCC’s requirement. Certainly not scriptural.

Ok Peter scriptural? Yes. Pope scriptural? No. not even close. Sunday worship scriptural? No. Changed from saturday because Jesus arose on Sunday. Fasting 40 days during Lent scriptural? No, Jesus fasted for 40 days in the desert but not for 40 days before he died. Lent isn’t scriptural but the elements are there.

I can go on and on, but if I know you, you will think of some reason to discredit this 2000 years of Christianity. But the only argument you raise is your own, it has no authority to it,

Please continue if you like I and we debate each one. As far as authority you really need to get away from this word as Jesus has clear distaste for it. Jesus said no one would exercise authority over each other. Authority means the aurhority to preach the Gospel. We all certainly have that authority given to us by Jesus.

 

[Deacon110]

Just your own interpretation of Scripture, and your own theology belief, If I would guess, there isnt 5 churches from protestant tradition that would agree with your arguments you place here about the Catholic Church.,

5? No not just 5, certainly plenty more though.

And there are plenty of Roman Catholics that do not believe in everything the RCC teaches so stop being a hypocrite it’s becoming very annoying, and you’re starting to make it confrontational. I can introduce you to plenty of Roman Catholics that have no belief at all for many RCC doctrines including the office of the Pope, confession, Mary’s status etc. etc. You may think the RCC is this perfect utopian place of worship where everyone lives in a bed of roses and believes the same thing, but it’s not. It’s in no better shape than the many denominations out there that differ in beliefs. You may say doctrinal unity but that’s only on paper.

And if by chance you found 5 non denominations to agree with you, I could find 10 protestant denominations to diagree with you. Truth is not divided, because a kingdom divided amongst itself will fall.

And as stated above there are plenty of Roman Catholics who disagree with RCC doctrine so you have the same problem. Guess that house will fall too.

I’ve asked this before and no Roman Catholic on this board could answer it. I’ve always had people dance around it claiming such things as the Trinity, but then admitting that the elements of the Trinity are contained in scripture.

I don’t have a problem with the Trinity so why are you putting this to me:shrug:

And you disagreed with the Trinity answer? If you ask the correct understanding of Sacred Tradition from the Church, and not your point of view of Sacred Tradition, then Trinity holds up to Sacred Tradtion, Sacred Scripture according to Roman Catholic Teaching.

You need to learn how to structure your sentences. First I didn’t disagree with the Trinity answer. The elements of the Trinity are scriptural. The word Trinity itself is tradition. It’s tradition meaning that’s the word historically we used to describe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. All scriptural. We also use Godhead.

The Roman Catholic Church not only claims the fullness of Truth, she has the fullness of Truth, we have the body, blood, soul, and divinilty of Jesus Christ, what do you have as your truth?

I believe in Jesus. HE’s my one and only savior. That’s the absolute infallible truth. Anyone can have that. That’s what makes us a part of HIS church.

This is a confused definition of Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, you stated above, you need to get the correct understanding what the Catholic Church teaches, stop spreading lies about her teachings on these forums, The Catholic Church teaches you cant have Sacred Tradition without Sacred Scripture, I hope you are clear on this.

I hope you are clear.

PEACE

 

[maryj]

It’s a worship service. And without getting into alot of detail like I said we worship in song, prayer, the Lord’s supper. etc. etc. I won’t layout the structure of it to you because I think it’s irrelevant. If you really want to know I can certainly oblige

Mass means the sacrifice of Jesus and yes I’m intimately aware of what’s supposed to be happening during the mass. I don’t agree with it. Again the didache has no reference to this kind of structure and certainly never refers to any kind of sacrifice taking place.

This makes no sense. What does structure have to do with Jesus one time sacrifice for our sins? And Jesus doesn’t fulfill any old covenant sacrifices. Jesus fulfills Old Testament prophecy not sacrifices. Jesus became the one time perfect sacrifice.

No you don’t have the ark of the covenant. The ark of the covenant has never been found. Do you even know what it is?? It’s the physical structure that Bezalel built to hold the tablets that contained the 10 commandments. The second set that Moses retrieved from GOD after the golden calf incident. If you personally have the ark then I’m sure it would have been on the news.

And we too have the word of GOD by the way.

The family of the High Priest? I’m assuming you are referring to the family and body of Christ. If that’s the case we are a part of that family and body as well at our church. We’re not eating Jesus physically because he doesn’t tell us to. Rememeber the flesh means nothing, it is the spirit that gives life.

PEACE

Ever read Scott Hahns’ “The Lamb’s supper”?

 

[SyCarl]

Justin Martyr pretty well sums up the way we worship at our church, except that we add a number of hymns.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. (First Apology, Chapter 67)

newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

 

[Non_Serviam]

My question was:

Since Paul says Sacred Tradition is contained in his Epistles, where do you get the authority to describe it as two separate things?

Your answer was:

You asked the question above, you did not ask for a definition of Sacred Scripture/Sacred Tradition from the Catholic church teachings, which is you cannot have Sacred Traditions without Sacred Scripture. That cleared up, I gave you John 21:24 to answer your question above, can you define what John is talking about? below please read

It isn’t cleared up-you still haven’t told me who gave you authority to describe Sacred Tradition and Scripture as separate things as you did in your previous post.

I’m glad to see that you are beginning to acknowledge that Sacred Tradition is contained in Scripture, but your post below shows that you aren’t quite there yet.

John 21:24… “It is this disciple who testifies to these things and has written them, and we know that his testimony is true. THERE ARE ALSO MANY OTHER THINGS THAT JESUS DID, BUT IF THESE WERE TO BE DESCRIBED INDIVIDUALLY, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written” Thus oral Sacred Traditions handed down to the Catholic church from the Apostles.Do you subcsribe to the true Sacred Traditions from the Apostles or just the ones that are written, because if you do, not all got written, so maybe your Traditions are not complete?

Paul tells me that to hold fast to the Sacred Tradition that he taught orally and wrote in his Epistle. For him it is essential tradition.

We see from Galatians 1 and 2 that Paul’s Gospel held the same essential traditions as those of the other Apostles.

For the same reason, John picked and chose among the actions of Jesus that he knew, in order to give his readers the tradition that they must know to follow Christ properly.

John anticipated objections from some (likely Gnostics) that his Gospel was “incomplete” so he specifically mentioned that he knew more about Chirst and had chosen these facts specifically.

Having said this, do I believe that the church possessed other information about Jesus, about Mary, about the Apostles and other early members of the church and what they did that might be interesting, informative, useful, edifying or educational?

Yes, I believe so. The difference is that it was not essential tradition.

That’s why my worship focuses on Acts 2 and gives less attention (not ignorance, but less attention) to times of the year and other actions such as the ones you’ve mentioned before.

**In other words the Sacred Traditions of The liturgy of the Word and the liturgy of the Eucharist in the Mass, as well as many other Sacred Traditions that got handed down orally and has the support of Sacred Scripture.

Now by you getting of topic for What ever reason, is leading me to believe you are like the Samaritans, because as Jesus quotes " you people do not understand: we worship what we understand" How is this so, by our Sacred Traditions, and Sacred Scriptures, and these Sacred Traditions have not Changed over the last 2 millenium.

My question is, how do you worship in Spirit and Truth? do you follow the Sacred Traditions given to the Catholic church from the Apostles, or a reading of Sacred Scripture guessing at what the Apostles orally handed down?

This I dont know or understand what your worship in Spirit and Truth is? Can you show what is your Sacred Tradition in worship?**

As Paul tells me:

Let no one, then, pass judgment on you in matters of food and drink or with regard to a festival or new moon or sabbath. (Colossians 2:16 NAB)

So I would hope in your questions about how I worship, that you aren’t seeking to judge me.

As I tried to bring to your attention before “worshiping in spirit and truth” is about the fact that the worshiper has been baptized into Christ (the truth John 14:6, Galatians 3:27) and been baptized into that one body by the Spirit (I Corinthians 12:13). The Samaritans had this experience in the book of Acts, fulfilling Christ’s prophecy.

Does your tradition not teach you this?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

You know Deacon, I will continue to pray for you. I can put truth right in front of you and you work hard to get out of it, because it is Catholic doctrine and teaching. So you will have no part of it, thats ok, I am willing to have discussions with you, but right now the post is how do you worship in Spirit and Truth?, you answered, I know, but what you described from scripture, is not the way you worship, because if you did, you would be Catholic. Another thing is, because you read this scriptural reference to be worship, so do the other Non catholic denominations, and yet they are not in agreement with you on this.

As far as Roman Catholics, believing the same doctrine all over the world, for the last 2 millenium, is a fact. If you know of Roman Catholics who dont follow the Catholic doctrine like you, dont consider themselves catholic, or are not practicing Catholics, and if they are and still in opposition to the doctrines of the Catholic church, they dont know what they believe and need formal instruction, why dont you help your catholic friends and have them sign up for an RCIA refreshers course, this might help them/

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Maybe this can help answer all your questions about Traditions if you answer mine How do you worship God if you must worship him in Spirit and Truth? In your truthful answer, and my explanation will reveal these mysteries of Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture.

I dont ask this to judge no one. If you are fearful of explaining your worship here, I can understand, if I wasnt sure I would not want to get exposed, either. But because I do believe in my faith Possesses the fullness of Truth, and I have no problem explaining how the Roman Catholic Church worships God in Spirit and Truth.

So can you lay out the formalities, how you come to worship God in Spirit and Truth. If you state like you did before using Scripture to describe it, then you dont follow the same Sacred Traditons that Paul and the other Apostles revealed through their Sacred Traditions.

How about this? you explain how your community comes to worship God in Spirit and Truth, and I will tell you if it follows Sacred Tradition using Sacred Scripture. Then maybe you can get an understanding of the eternal realities that Jesus Christ established for his Catholic church.