How does a sex-crazed son of a Pagan

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become the most influential theologian in the history of the Catholic church. Augustine is almost single-handedly responsible for the idea of an eternal hell. I’m trying to see what is so special about this guy. Yeah, he was smart. But he grew up in a well to do family, his father being a Pagan and mother a Christian. He loved sex and even had a son out of wedlock with his mistress. I don’t see anywhere that he suffered in any extreme way. He converted to Christianity and proceeded to be the biggest influence in the most important doctrine of the church.
 
Peter denied Christ, Mary Magdalene was possessed by seven demons, and Saul persecuted followers of Christ and had people killed. Yet Saul converts and becomes the first and greatest theologian writer of the Church. They renounced their evils. Why do you judge them so about what went on before?

And many Church Fathers taught the eternity of hell before Saint Augustine: catholic.com/tract/the-hell-there-is

You credit Augustine with too much and deny the authenticity of the tradition of the Church in a single post.
 
laylow said:
become the most influential theologian in the history of the Catholic church. Augustine is almost single-handedly responsible for the idea of an eternal hell. I’m trying to see what is so special about this guy. Yeah, he was smart. But he grew up in a well to do family, his father being a Pagan and mother a Christian. He loved sex and even had a son out of wedlock with his mistress. I don’t see anywhere that he suffered in any extreme way. He converted to Christianity and proceeded to be the biggest influence in the most important doctrine of the church.
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I think it’s that God can take ordinary people, and then they end up doing extraordinary things, and then they even become saints.

If you look at Scripture, God used ordinary people to do extraordinary tasks.

For example, He chose Noah to build an ark, to save people from the flood.

He chose Moses to lead His people, too.
 
Wesrock said:
Peter denied Christ, Mary Magdalene was possessed by seven demons, and Saul persecuted followers of Christ and had people killed. Yet Saul converts and becomes the first and greatest theologian writer of the Church. They renounced their evils. Why do you judge them so about what went on before?

And many Church Fathers taught the eternity of hell before Saint Augustine: catholic.com/tract/the-hell-there-is

You credit Augustine with too much and deny the authenticity of the tradition of the Church in a single post.
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I don’t consider it judging, just wondering why his teaching trump the early church?
 
Jacob lies and cheats Esau out of his birthright, yet God respects the blessing and favors Jacob for the covenant over Esau, and Jacob turns into a better man, and through him the covenant of Abraham brought forward.
 
laylow said:
Early church taught Univeralism before Tertullian, who had questionable translation of the Bible.
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No. Some, maybe, but claiming it as the Early Church’s position is just false. I linked to Church Father quotes already.
 
laylow said:
become the most influential theologian in the history of the Catholic church. Augustine is almost single-handedly responsible for the idea of an eternal hell. I’m trying to see what is so special about this guy. Yeah, he was smart. But he grew up in a well to do family, his father being a Pagan and mother a Christian. He loved sex and even had a son out of wedlock with his mistress. I don’t see anywhere that he suffered in any extreme way. He converted to Christianity and proceeded to be the biggest influence in the most important doctrine of the church.
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Great sinners can repent and become great men. Augustine repented of his ways and served God and the Church for the rest of his days. Have you ever read “Confessions”? If not, that is a great place for you to start.
 
And let’s be clear that many Orthodox Churches, where Augustine had and has little influence, teach of hell as being infinite and eternal, even given theological differences on why we experience its pains and what exactly it is.
 
Wesrock said:
No. Some, maybe, but claiming it as the Early Church’s position is just false. I linked to Church Father quotes already.
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Do you know of any websites that show the changes of catechism through the years?
 
Easy question to answer!

By the Grace of God.

How else?
 
laylow said:
Do you know of any websites that show the changes of catechism through the years?
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Do you? Not sure what you’re getting at.

This topic made me interested in looking at some Eastern views of Hell (on what it is, not just its eternity), and I can’t speak to the community as a whole, but there appears to be some who are critical of those who call the western view heresy and the eastern view morally superior (western view being presence of God versus abesence and actual punishment for justice versus Eastern (one currently popular view) being the idea that it’s God coming in his full glory experienced differently).

monachos.net/conversation/topic/5337-do-you-think-most-orthodox-hold-the-western-view-of-heavenhell/

Just a few people’s view about actual Patristic witness.
 
laylow said:
Do you know of any websites that show the changes of catechism through the years?
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Link

This contains the 5 major Catholic catechisms if one includes the Baltimore (which was a “local” catechism, designed for the US). I don’t know of any catechisms which precede the St Thomas C, which would have been written in the 1200s.
 
St_Francis said:
Link

This contains the 5 major Catholic catechisms if one includes the Baltimore (which was a “local” catechism, designed for the US). I don’t know of any catechisms which precede the St Thomas C, which would have been written in the 1200s./QUOTE

This is an excellent link. I’ve never seen the Catechisms linked as such.

Thanks,
Mary.
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Hell is in both Old and New Testaments, which were taught together with their meanings.

Jesus taught extensively and the Gospel accounts are aide memoires to this.

In certain passages there is ambiguity as between heaven and purgatory or hell and purgatory. But Jesus taught a lot about Hell all right.

As for Augustine well his mother did pray for him for many years and I expect many friends and acquaintances also. I’m sure they carried on while he occupied positions of leadership and wrote his writings.
 
I dare say that eternal hell is as equally as long as eternal life.

The argument is that hell lasts an aeon (as it is Greek), however, it is also true that life also lasts an aeon. Do we determine them in two separate frames, or should we consistently view them as on the one hand on the other, as Jesus Christ presented them as such.
 
Wesrock said:
Do you? Not sure what you’re getting at.

This topic made me interested in looking at some Eastern views of Hell (on what it is, not just its eternity), and I can’t speak to the community as a whole, but there appears to be some who are critical of those who call the western view heresy and the eastern view morally superior (western view being presence of God versus abesence and actual punishment for justice versus Eastern (one currently popular view) being the idea that it’s God coming in his full glory experienced differently).

monachos.net/conversation/topic/5337-do-you-think-most-orthodox-hold-the-western-view-of-heavenhell/

Just a few people’s view about actual Patristic witness.
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No , that’s why I asked you! I’m interested in seeing that documentation if it exists, wasn’t being confrontational.
 
laylow said:
become the most influential theologian in the history of the Catholic church. Augustine is almost single-handedly responsible for the idea of an eternal hell. I’m trying to see what is so special about this guy. Yeah, he was smart. But he grew up in a well to do family, his father being a Pagan and mother a Christian. He loved sex and even had a son out of wedlock with his mistress. I don’t see anywhere that he suffered in any extreme way. He converted to Christianity and proceeded to be the biggest influence in the most important doctrine of the church.
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I’m assuming this is what the thread is really about.

No he isn’t. Whatever source you read that told you that had an agenda or was trying to avoid the doctrine out of fear of its reality. The existence of hell as an eternal, conscious punishment was transmitted by Christ to the apostles, which have taught it ever since.

catholic.com/tract/the-hell-there-is

The early Church did not believe in universalism. It did not believe in annihilation. It did not believe that there was a hell but that it was empty.
 
TK421 said:
I’m assuming this is what the thread is really about.

No he isn’t. Whatever source you read that told you that had an agenda or was trying to avoid the doctrine out of fear of its reality. The existence of hell as an eternal, conscious punishment was transmitted by Christ to the apostles, which have taught it ever since.

catholic.com/tract/the-hell-there-is

The early Church did not believe in universalism. It did not believe in annihilation. It did not believe that there was a hell but that it was empty.
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In many ways, it’s the only idea in the Church that defies any kind of logic. To live a life that you never even chose, predestined with sin and imperfection that lasts at most 100 years, to prove whether you " chose" God. If not, you get eternal punishment, billions and trillions and quadrillions…(you get the idea) worse than the Holocaust, worst illnesses, etc that could even be imagined. That is not justice by any logic, it is sadistic insanity. The God I see in the bible is one of corrective punishment. This idea is completely contrary to that. And I know you’re going to say that the person chooses their destination, not God. Well, I highly doubt that anyone when posed the question, do you want eternal bliss, or eternal torture, that anyone actually chooses the torture. Free will means knowing the result of your action which in this case does not exist.
 
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