How does an unlearned person know if Catholic Church or Orthodox is true?

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Nektarios_Lady said:
NFP uses can be three-fold: can be used to prevent pregnancy OR to achieve pregnancy AND to discover early, help doctors diagnose & treat, a wide array of diseases or defects within a woman’s body.

In the Catholic Church all three uses are permissible. In the Orthodox Church the latter two would always be permissible. Some Orthodox Bishops permit non-abortive forms of birth control, including NFP, while others only allow for it’s use if the spiritual father deems it necessary to provide a blessing for it and some Bishops don’t permit any form of birth control.

But you have a point, is it natural or rather are the use of thermometers to determine marital relations natural?

I don’t know the history of thermometers…when they were invented & were they used for this purpose like this before or during or immediately following Christ’s physical life on earth? Or is this totally brand new?
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In my mind this is a question of following the letter of the law versus the spirit. If you are using methods to enable intercourse without pregnancy, whether you use the rhythm method or a condom, then the intent is absolutely identical. Morally there is zero difference.
 
Seraphim73 said:
In my mind this is a question of following the letter of the law versus the spirit. If you are using methods to enable intercourse without pregnancy, whether you use the rhythm method or a condom, then the intent is absolutely identical. Morally there is zero difference.
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Yes, the intent is the same. The method is different - method does matter. For example, a man needs to feed he’s family and it’s his intention to feed his family. Her could use several different methods. He could work, earn money and buy food for his family. He could commit armed robbery to get money to buy food. He could beg for money to buy food. He could go dumpster diving for food. He could go stand in line at a local food bank for food. The intent is the same, but the methods are different.

If the intention is sinful, then no matter what the method it’s sinful.

If the method is sinful, then no matter what the intention it’s sinful.
 
Nektarios_Lady said:
Yes, the intent is the same. The method is different - method does matter. For example, a man needs to feed he’s family and it’s his intention to feed his family. Her could use several different methods. He could work, earn money and buy food for his family. He could commit armed robbery to get money to buy food. He could beg for money to buy food. He could go dumpster diving for food. He could go stand in line at a local food bank for food. The intent is the same, but the methods are different.
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That’s not an apt analogy. A more correct analogy would be saying it’s ok to feed your family by picking apples because it is natural but not by computer programming because computers are unnatural.
 
Seraphim73 said:
That’s not an apt analogy. A more correct analogy would be saying it’s ok to feed your family by picking apples because it is natural but not by computer programming because computers are unnatural.
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If the intention is sinful, then no matter what the method it’s sinful.

If the method is sinful, then no matter what the intention it’s sinful.
 
By its miracles.
Eucharistic miracles, Padre Pio, the miracle of Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of Guadalupe, demonic possessions, and incorruptible saints.
 
Seraphim73 said:
Sure it is. It certainly has the exact same purpose, to enable a couple to have intercourse without getting pregnant. I have to say this whole question is kind of silly. To say that using a condom to prevent pregnancy is sinful, but using this…

Is natural is pretty absurd.

Yes it is natural, nature itself is why this method words to prevent conception. Artificial contraception like condoms is unnatural because it frustrates the purpose of sex, and thus immoral. This was the opinion of all of Christianity until non-Catholic denominations started capitulating to perversion in the 1930s, and society has been suffering ever since.
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Estevao said:
Yes it is natural, nature itself is why this method words to prevent conception. Artificial contraception like condoms is unnatural because it frustrates the purpose of sex, and thus immoral. This was the opinion of all of Christianity until non-Catholic denominations started capitulating to perversion in the 1930s, and society has been suffering ever since.
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But that is just an arbitrary line. A line the Church fathers would not have recognized.
 
Seraphim73 said:
But that is just an arbitrary line. A line the Church fathers would not have recognized.
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It’s not arbitrary, it’s natural law ethics, the kind of solid moral theology that the Catholic Church possesses.
 
Estevao said:
It’s not arbitrary, it’s natural law ethics, the kind of solid moral theology that the Catholic Church possesses.
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Theology as the modern Catholic Church has constructed it. It has nothing to do with patristic theology.
 
Seraphim73 said:
Theology as the modern Catholic Church has constructed it. It has nothing to do with patristic theology.
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So in your opinion Orthodoxy posses solid moral theology that can work to oppose the abortion holocaust? How common is abortion in eastern europe? Oh right…it’s the worst there. Why might that be? Do you think the contraceptive mentality of sex for pleasure, where a woman can kill her own flesh and blood for a cheap orgasm has anything to do with it?

Can I get a clear answer about contraception from the Orthodox or will my answer vary according to which priest I talk to?

Remember, this thread is about an unlearned person, not someone who’s going to be reading dozens of books about patristic theology, but someone who is more concerned about getting to heaven and not committing sexual sin.
 
Estevao said:
So in your opinion Orthodoxy posses solid moral theology that can work to oppose the abortion holocaust?
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Yes of course. The condemnation of abortion is unequivocal. It’s a tragedy no matter where it happens.
 
Seraphim73 said:
Which part was the edit?
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Do you think the contraceptive mentality has anything to do with the abortion holocaust?

Will I get a consistent opinion on contraception from an Orthodox priest or will my mileage vary?
 
Estevao said:
Do you think the contraceptive mentality has anything to do with the abortion holocaust?

Will I get a consistent opinion on contraception from an Orthodox priest or will my mileage vary?
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As consistent an opinion as you get from Catholic priests I imagine. 😉

And yes self love and selfishness is the root of abortion no doubt, if that’s what you mean. But it’s not the method that makes the sin. You can pursue NFP with the same mentality.
 
TheFraggle said:
By its miracles.
Eucharistic miracles, Padre Pio, the miracle of Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of Guadalupe, demonic possessions, and incorruptible saints.
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I suspect you are ignorant of the overabundance of such in the Orthodox Church, otherwise I don’t think you would have suggested this criteria. I also wonder why you include “demonic possessions” as evidence? (it’s something we don’t have an overabundance of)
 
Seraphim73 said:
As consistent an opinion as you get from Catholic priests I imagine. 😉
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AFAIK that would not be the same thing. The Catholic priest would be dissenting or acting our of vincible ignorance, as the teaching of the magisterium is very clear on this (c.f. Humanae Vitae).
And yes self love and selfishness is the root of abortion no doubt, if that’s what you mean. But it’s not the method that makes the sin. You can pursue NFP with the same mentality.
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Oh yeah, I think the Catholic Catechism condemns using NFP for selfish purposes.
 
As far as varied opinions its true that in the Orthodox Church NFP is not a matter of dogmatic concern but of pastoral care? So the opinions reside in the realm of the pastor. Still the understanding of NFP and as Catholics advocate makes a strong case for self-control and responsibility in a similiar fashion as fasting an hence a induction of a plausible more centered ascetic spirit

To point out a negative is also witnessed in all these forms, however, that point seems to distract from the positive reasoning of valid preference.
 
If I was the Original Poster, I too would have a very difficult time sorting through the socio-political happenings that made the two Orthodox Church Communions and the Catholic Church Communion where it is today.

Suffice to say, many of us Eastern Catholics will always have 6 toes in Catholicism and 4 within our respective sister Orthodox Church, as we share our common Sacred Traditions, Customs, etc…

The one undeniable Truth that I find to be quite beautiful within Catholicism (found nowhere else) is that one can be at the Table of the Lord with those who are Assyrian/Chaldean, Malankara Syriac, Maronite, Byzantine, Coptic, Armenian, Russian, Roman, Anglican Use, Ambrosian, Tridentine, etc and share the Eucharist – unity but not uniformity… not always played out exactly as it should be, power struggles and tussles, but unity and love nonetheless.

I’m partial to the Oriental Orthodox, especially the Syriac and Malankara Churches for preserving the True Faith despite millenia of oppression, hardship and being overwhelming minority, what a beautiful Liturgy… I find the Eastern Orthodox Liturgy to be royal/magnificient… the Assyrian Qurbana to be sublime… quite beautifully, as a Catholic, I am united to all of these Sacred Traditions and Churches.
 
Estevao said:
Oh yeah, I think the Catholic Catechism condemns using NFP for selfish purposes.
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Which paragraph of the Catechism of the Catholic Church condemns the use of NFP for specific purposes, ie. selfishness?
 
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