I think Atheism has everything to do with the abortion holocaust. The abortion holocaust is now world-wide and is the only holocaust that has already killed more people than the holocaust led by the Atheistic Communists of the 20th Century through out Russia (USSR) and Asia (China, Cambodia, Vietnam, Korea, etc.).
Each Orthodox Christian priest follows his Bishop’s decision on this and every practice Because they have the real and immediate authority over their flock.
this is definitely a dodge. ABC alters God’s creation of fertility. NFP works with God’s created fertility cycle. Periodically abstaining from sex is not a sin.And I would love to see all the patristic support for NFP. All of the condemnation of ABC applies equally to NFP.
So you say. Referring to the fathers is never a dodge my friend.
you didn’t refer to the fathers concerning ABC.
To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature - Clement of Alexandria
To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature - Clement of Alexandria
But I wonder why he [the heretic Jovinianus] set Judah and Tamar before us for an example, unless perchance even harlots give him pleasure; or Onan, who was slain because he grudged his brother seed. Does he imagine that we approve of any sexual intercourse except for the procreation of children? - St Augustine
For thus the eternal law, that is, the will of God creator of all creatures, taking counsel for the conservation of natural order, not to serve lust, but to see to the preservation of the race, permits the delight of mortal flesh to be released from the control of reason in copulation only to propagate progeny - Jerome
They exercise genital acts, yet prevent the conceiving of children. Not in order to produce offspring, but to satisfy lust, are they eager for corruption - Epiphanius
If you can explain how these quotes apply to ABC but not NFP then my hat’s off to you.
First condoms:
Read Theology of the Body. The ancients didn’t understand the menstrual cycle the same as we do today. They had some correct notions, but they also had some ideas which were not scientifically accurate.To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature - Clement of Alexandria
But I wonder why he [the heretic Jovinianus] set Judah and Tamar before us for an example, unless perchance even harlots give him pleasure; or Onan, who was slain because he grudged his brother seed. Does he imagine that we approve of any sexual intercourse except for the procreation of children? - St Augustine
For thus the eternal law, that is, the will of God creator of all creatures, taking counsel for the conservation of natural order, not to serve lust, but to see to the preservation of the race, permits the delight of mortal flesh to be released from the control of reason in copulation only to propagate progeny - Jerome
They exercise genital acts, yet prevent the conceiving of children. Not in order to produce offspring, but to satisfy lust, are they eager for corruption - Epiphanius
If you can explain how these quotes apply to ABC but not NFP then my hat’s off to you.
Which is why there is not a problem between the statements of the ECF and NFP - the couple who engage in sexual relations -while using NFP are open to procreation - by uniting in this way they accept responsibility for any life that results.To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature - Clement of Alexandria
But I wonder why he [the heretic Jovinianus] set Judah and Tamar before us for an example, unless perchance even harlots give him pleasure; or Onan, who was slain because he grudged his brother seed. Does he imagine that we approve of any sexual intercourse except for the procreation of children? - St Augustine
For thus the eternal law, that is, the will of God creator of all creatures, taking counsel for the conservation of natural order, not to serve lust, but to see to the preservation of the race, permits the delight of mortal flesh to be released from the control of reason in copulation only to propagate progeny - Jerome
They exercise genital acts, yet prevent the conceiving of children. Not in order to produce offspring, but to satisfy lust, are they eager for corruption - Epiphanius
If you can explain how these quotes apply to ABC but not NFP then my hat’s off to you.
Generally speaking the fathers taught that the only reason for sex is to procreate. Anything else is sinful. So therefore, anything intentionally done to facilitate intercourse without procreation would be sinful. I understand what the Catholic teaching is. I’m simply saying it’s not supportable from the patristic record.
Perhaps, as a Catholic, you are unaware that an Orthodox Christian following the prescribed fasts of the Church calendar, already abstains from sexual relations for a little over half the year
And the point is every Catholic that engages in sexusl activity accepts procreation as a probable outcome. Yes I am aware of proscibed fast in the Orthodox tradition…abstaining from relations always results in birth control…engaging in relations may or may not…whether you are consciously aware of that fact or not, whether your God given intellect allows you to be informed of same or not.
I believe that the difference is that in NFP, the couple purposefully engages in the pleasure of the marital acts during a time when they are nearly 100% certain their action will Not produce an heir…this is what is seen as the same as any other form of birth control - open to the pleasure while not open to a child.
If you can explain how these quotes apply to ABC but not NFP then my hat’s off to you.
Again, it’s rather simple. NFP maintains the body/soul link in which sex and babies are an intertwined subject. ABC utterly changes the human condition and physically makes the statement that sex and babies are only incidentally related (and only if you want them to be), not fundamentally connected. Think about it. ABC has radically changed the nature of human civilization. Not ONE nation on earth where ABC is respectable, widely available and cheap has an above replacement fertility rate. Not one. Almost every NFP couple I have ever met has at least 2 kids (replacement rate). Most have more. There’s where the rubber meets the road. One path literally leads to slow motion human extinction. The other leads to flourishing.
I guess open to life depends on how pleasurable and procreative is understood in relation to life. I suppose both are viewed as good, but what of pleasure in a non procreative state. Seems to be where the point is?
And yet to fail to answer the question …is Orthodox teaching that every time a couple comes together procreation must be the sole purpose and thus if one or both persons is infertil they must abstain? Men can be infertile and women too, naturally …thus if a medical doctor informs them of that …would that couple be prohibited from relations? We are created beings that have built in mechanisms that naturally interrupt fertility …for example nursing a child or poor nutrition … Other medical conditions …and would the ECF and Orthodox argue against the unitive aspect of marital relations.