How does Catholic meditation work, (not prayers.)

[maendem]

Kevin Walker:

I believe Catholics learned to pray from the many examples of praying in the Bible, and Catholics have developed praying almost into a science (no insult intended). But what happened to meditation? If only God through Jesus can teach meditation, does that explain why Catholics are so weak on this practice?

But prayer is not meditation, they have two distinque purposes. The Tibetan Buddhists are specialists on meditative prayer, and that is very un-Catholic.

No one is asking on this thread to learn a technique which forces God into granting anything.

Catholics are effectively taught ‘how’ to pray, but Catholics are not taught ‘how’ to meditate. The CCC describes what meditation is, but not *how *to do it.

Are you saying that praying and meditation are one in the same? That contradicts a life-time of my Catholic instruction from my very good (and orthodox) priests. I truly believe praying and meditation in Catholicism serve two distinct purposes.

Dear Kevin,

I agree that praying and meditation are quite different. You know more about meditation than I do, so you can define it better. Praying I see as an utterly vulnerable heart-to-heart with God. It is not necessarily a conversation. One of her sisters asked St. Therese what on earth she was saying to God during her long prayers before the Blessed Sacrament. “I don’t say anything,” she replied. “I just love Him.”

That’s prayer. As Catholics, meditation can be useful for clearing the mind, and centering our flighty thoughts and spirit on God. But while prayer is CRUCIAL to the Christian life, meditation is not, and that is perhaps why you don’t find much on Catholic meditation.

As one contemplative monk put it to me, “With meditation, you can have beautiful interior images and profound thoughts, but in prayer, you can simply go right to Jesus Himself.”

 

[Kevin_Walker]

TheGrowingGrape:

Whatever you do, stay FAR away from Centering Prayer. It’s proponents claim that Eastern forms of Meditation are compatible with Catholicism. These folks are in GRAVE error.

I too have many years of Zen and Yoga training and experience, and I know from first hand experience that it is not compatible with Catholicism.

But my QUEST is for a Catholic form of meditative technique which can be taught, applied, have results, and is not a mere euphemism for concentrating.

I’ll tell you a personal account. Before I returned to The Church, I was into a lot of “stuff,” one of which was Zen Meditation. I studied and practiced Zen and Buddhism for two weeks, and at the conclusion of those two weeks, I found, through Centering Prayer and Zen Meditation, a dark fiery abyss filled with demons. By the end of the two weeks, I was hallucinating. I saw demons with my waking eyes. I was anxious, stressed out, and on the verge of mental collapse. I was in a state of extreme psychological trauma. I cannot stress enough the extreme danger of Eastern Meditation.

That’s too bad. All my experiences with Eastern meditation, especially with Kudalini Yoga, has been positive and very therapeutic. I have used Zen and Yoga meditation and breathing exercises all my life to great effect, and I would teach my children these physical exercises.

The “god” of the Buddhists is NOT the Triune God.

That is very true. That is why I am seeking to develop or discover through the Saints the Catholic method of meditation, and not the vague and flowery description of what meditation *is, *as found in the C.C.C.

True Catholic Contemplation is reserved for FEW souls. It takes obedience to the teachings of the Church Magesterium, conquering of sin through Grace, and often times YEARS of patience and diligence.

NOW we are getting closer. What are those “teachings of the Church Magesterium” which will unlock the secrets of *how *to do Catholic meditation?

Our society is looking for fast solutions to everything. Eastern Mysticism appears to be the fast and easy way to achieve Contemplation. In reality, Centering Prayer is a mirage. If you achieve Nirvana, you will only find darkness and fire.

Just a polite reminder that this thread is not seeking Eastern Mysticism in any way, but a method of Catholic meditation (not prayer) which can surpass that found in the East.

 

[Rooter]

Kevin, you might find it helpful to read The Ways of Mental Prayer by Dom Vitalis Lehodey, which carries an encomium from Pope Pius X. You may find that it answers all your questions.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Rooter:

Kevin, you might find it helpful to read The Ways of Mental Prayer by Dom Vitalis Lehodey, which carries an encomium from Pope Pius X. You may find that it answers all your questions.

Awsome. Thank you very much.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Rooter:

Kevin, you might find it helpful to read The Ways of Mental Prayer by Dom Vitalis Lehodey, which carries an encomium from Pope Pius X. You may find that it answers all your questions.

I just did some research on the book: The Ways of Mental Prayer by Dom Vitalis Lehodey, and it was described to be originally written as a comtemplative prayer manual for the Trappists, a prayer method based on Eastern meditation which I have already disagreed.

Again, I distinguish the difference in Catholicism between prayer and meditation.

But thanks for the suggestion, it is on my reading list.

 

[Pug]

I don’t really know for sure where this thread is going, but I do know that the book by Dietrich von Hildebrand, Transformation in Christ, is wonderful. They have a chapter of it online at EWTN and conveniently, it is on recollection and contemplation. Perhaps there would be something there to the point. I read that chapter and then absolutely had to secure the entire book. It was worth it. He is not talking about reciting mental prayer in that chapter.

 

[TheGrowingGrape]

NOW we are getting closer. What are those “teachings of the Church Magesterium” which will unlock the secrets of *how *to do Catholic meditation?

Eastern Meditation mixed with Catholicism appears to make an attempt to mix human and divine nature and human will and divine will. It attempts to unify our human nature with God, and that goes against the Teaching of the Church Magesterium with regards to the Incarnation.

What is the most we can ever be as humans? Imitations of the Man-God, Jesus Christ. To understand the errors in Mixing East and west we need to look at the infallible dogmas surrounding the incarnation with regards to the Duality of Christ’s nature, i.e. the Hypostatic Union.

According to Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma 1955 ed. page 147, the following is infallible dogma, **“In the Hypostatic Union each of the two natures of Christ continues unimpaired, untransformed and unfixed with the other.” **(The “two natures” are in reference to Christ’s human nature and Christ’s divine nature.There was not a mixing of Christ’s human nature and Christ’s divine nature).

The text goes on to say, “According to the testimony of Holy Writ, Christ is true God and true Man that is, possessor of the unimpaired Divine Nature and an unimpaired human nature.”

The text quotes St. Tertullian, “The identity of each of the two substances remained intact, so that the spirit (the Divine Spirit) performed His works in Him, that is miracles and signs, as also the flesh underwent sufferings. As both substances, each in its own condition of being, acted in distinct ways, each performed the feats and acheived the successes peculiar to it”

To access the divine you must use GRACE, which you obtain through the sacraments and secondarily through prayer. Grace alone allows the human nature to share with the Divine Love of God. Grace alone is the channel that allows us to share in God’s Divinity.

Eastern Meditation mixed with Catholic Contemplation seems to reproduce the heresies of Monophysitism and Monothelitism.

Here are the definitions according to The Modern Catholic Dictionary by Father Hardon. . I’ll let you judge for yourself:

MONOPHYSITISM: A historical system that arose in the fifth century, claiming that in Christ there was only one nature. It came as a reaction to Nestorianism, which postulated two persons in Christ. Among the Monophysites was Eutyches (378-454), head of a monastery near Constantinople. In his effort to save the unity of the Word Incarnate, he suppressed Christ’s human nature. **Other Monyphysites spoke of a single combined nature that was both human and divine. **Condenmed by the Council of Chalcedon in 451, Monophysitism still prevails in the East among the Copts and the Syrian Jacobites (Etym. Greek monos, single + physis, nature.)

MONOTHELITISM: A heresy that began in the Seventh century out of an attempt to conciliate the Monophysites. The latter confused the idea of personality with the undivided activity of a single will, claiming that there was a kind of divine-human operation in Christ. The Monothelites recognized the orthodox doctrine of Christ’s two natures, but taught that these two natures had a common will and a common activity. This view was urged by Sergius (d. 638), Patriarch of Constantinople, who had brought Pope Honorius to support his cause. The East was divided in controversy for over
a half century, until the Sixth General Council held at Constantinople condemned Monothelitism in 681. (Etym. Greek* monos*, single + thelein, will.)

To answer your question, first we must be CAREFUL not to deviate from the Teaching Magesterium of The Church. Then, we study the examples of the Saints. St. Theresa Avila is a good example.

The Key is this: all *allowed *meditative or contemplative prayer must be passive-active or active. We cannot be completely quiet in our meditation, lest we be Quietists. The heresy of Quietism is a is a completely passive state of being, devoid of any interaction with God. Eastern meditation also borders on being the heresy of Quietism, too.

To meditate, we can be passive, but we must be in a state where we are still interacting with the PERSON of God. God is a person. Three persons in One God. God is not an impersonal force, a feeling, or a focused mantra.

We want to develop a RELATIONSHIP with the person of Jesus Christ. Go somewhere quiet, like an adoration Chapel, and say, “God, I love You, adore You, praise You, and thank You for everything.” Start there.

Meditation takes time and practice.

I think Contemplation is easier. You just find an adoration chapel where the Host is displayed in a Monstrance, kneel in one of the pews, and stare at Jesus in the Eucharist. In this form of prayer, you are in a passive-active state: You are looking at Christ and He is looking back at you … with LOVE!

 

[Rooter]

Kevin Walker:

I just did some research on the book: The Ways of Mental Prayer by Dom Vitalis Lehodey, and it was described to be originally written as a comtemplative prayer manual for the Trappists, a prayer method based on Eastern meditation which I have already disagreed.

Kevin, if you’d like to read the book for yourself, you’ll find that the second of its three parts deals entirely with meditation. The book contains very little original material, but instead draws heavily on St Teresa of Avila, St John of the Cross, St Alphonsus Liguori, and St Frances de Sales. All four are Doctors of the Church.

 

[Augustine]

Kevin Walker:

I believe Catholics learned to pray from the many examples of praying in the Bible, and Catholics have developed praying almost into a science (no insult intended). But what happened to meditation? If only God through Jesus can teach meditation, does that explain why Catholics are so weak on this practice?

I think your background in Eastern philosophy is getting in the way here. What is the purpose of meditation as you understand it?
Kevin Walker:

But prayer is not meditation, they have two distinque purposes. The Tibetan Buddhists are specialists on meditative prayer, and that is very un-Catholic.

It is bound to be so, for Budhists do not believe in God. Whatever they have is nothing but psychological at best.
Kevin Walker:

No one is asking on this thread to learn a technique which forces God into granting anything.

After you answer the questions above, please bring this comment up again.
Kevin Walker:

Catholics are effectively taught ‘how’ to pray, but Catholics are not taught ‘how’ to meditate. The CCC describes what meditation is, but not *how *to do it.

I’m afraid that there’s a semantic problem in the way of your understanding what the CCC was refering to.
Kevin Walker:

Are you saying that praying and meditation are one in the same? That contradicts a life-time of my Catholic instruction from my very good (and orthodox) priests. I truly believe praying and meditation in Catholicism serve two distinct purposes.

Which ones?

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Augustine:

I think your background in Eastern philosophy is getting in the way here. What is the purpose of meditation as you understand it?

Read post #11

It is bound to be so, for Budhists do not believe in God. Whatever they have is nothing but psychological at best.

An analogy is being made between Buddhist meditation and Catholic meditation, not theology.

After you answer the questions above, please bring this comment up again.

You need to bring the comment back into its proper context.

I’m afraid that there’s a semantic problem in the way of your understanding what the CCC was refering to.

No semantic problem at all. The CCT defines what meditation *is, *but does not describe how to do it.

Which ones?

Reread post #11.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

jeffreedy789:

my understanding is that the two (prayer and meditation) are very overlapping - one could even say that meditation is a FORM of prayer. perhaps drawing too sharp of a distinction creates a false dichotomy.

just a thought.

Hi jeffreedy789,

Since the Catechism of the Catholic Church provides two seperate definitions for prayer and for meditation, then it is not a false dichotomy.

CCC
2559 “Prayer is the raising of one’s mind and heart to God or the requesting of good things from God.”

2705 “Meditation is above all a quest.”

Meditation and Prayer are two distinct concepts in the eyes of the Church.

Something interesting for me to ponder and concentrate on.

 

[Annunciata]

Father Groeschel was talking about the prayer form of St. Ignatius of Loyola on his Sunday Night Live on EWTN last night…He had a Latin name for it… can’t remember…here is a link explaining it: Ignatius Prayer …A Method of Contemplation.

 

[Annunciata]

Annunciata:

Father Groeschel was talking about the prayer form of St. Ignatius of Loyola on his Sunday Night Live on EWTN last night…He had a Latin name for it… can’t remember…here is a link explaining it: Ignatius Prayer …A Method of Contemplation.

Bump Can anyone remember the Latin name name for this type of meditation???

 

[TheGrowingGrape]

Over the past couple days, I’ve been thinking of a good answer to the original question posted on this thread: How do Catholics Meditate?

Let me tell you how I learned to meditate.

First, set religion aside for the time being. This may sound like strange advice coming from someone like me. HA! I believe that some people’s imaginations need to be trained to imagine things.

I can meditate because I used to write science fiction. I wrote a novel (unpublished because it’s full of purple prose. HA) and several unpublished short stories. I simply write because I like it.

The key to being a fiction writer is not the writing itself. That comes later. The KEY is the ability to use one’s imagination as a tool of creation.

My advice would be, it it’s available in your area, to take a Creative Writing workshop or course, maybe at a Community College. Learn how to write fiction and you’ll learn how to meditate.

When you write fiction you must create the characters in your story. What do they look like? How do your characters feel about themselves and others? Personality traits? Are they sarcastic? Are they super sweet? What is their favorite thing to eat? Do they have any annoying habits? What do they like to talk about? Do they have a sense of humor? Do they easily fall in and out of love? Are they loyal or fickle? etc…

You then create relationships between the characters in your story. Why does James love Joan? What is lacking in James’s life that he sees in Joan? Does James love his mother, or does he dislike her? You imagine the undercurrent between relationships.

Then, you take the next step and start imagining your characters having conversations with one another.

When you get in the groove of writing, the “zone” as writers call it, conversations between your characters flow in your mind so fast that you hardly have time to write it down! Sometimes you are in that “zone” where you MUST write.

Then, there are also frustrating times when one has “writer’s block” when one can’t access one’s imagination. It goes limp like a dead fish.

Now, apply these things to prayer. We all know there are times when we can’t get enough of the religious life and we’re in the “zone.” We all also know about those terrible times called “The Dark Night of the Soul” or the “Dry Spells” where you have a great distaste for prayer, and can’t access your imagination if you tried.

It sounds like perhaps you need to try and train your imagination to create imagery. Step back from meditation for awhile and try to sit down and write a science fiction story. I’ll start it for you …

*"A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away …
*
LOL!!! (I LOVE Star Wars … btw … anyone seen the full screen trailer yet? It’s on the internet at starwars.com for free download. Its so AWESOME!!!)

 

[Rooter]

Annunciata:

Can anyone remember the Latin name name for this type of meditation???

Annunciata, I don’t know if this is what you’re looking for, but the standard terminology for this is Guigo’s Ladder of lectio divina, meditatio, oratio and contemplatio. St Ignatius is confusing because he calls contemplatio what other people call meditatio.

 

[Annunciata]

Rooter:

Annunciata, I don’t know if this is what you’re looking for, but the standard terminology for this is Guigo’s Ladder of lectio divina, meditatio, oratio and contemplatio. St Ignatius is confusing because he calls contemplatio what other people call meditatio.

No…It was a Latin term meaning entering into… Nice site…but none of those terms sound familiar.

 

[Augustine]

Kevin,

I guess you meant this post, #10, right?
Kevin Walker:

I have observed that the Easterners have almost perfected the art of meditation while Roman Catholics have just about perfected the art of prayer. Yet the Eastern religions tend to describe their praying in terms of meditation and Roman Catholicism tends to describe meditation as if it were praying. Each demonstrating their strength and weaknesses in each discipline.

Keep in mind that the difference is theological. This is of most importance for it defines not only the method as well as the goal. Far-eastern religions are essentially agnostic, so they do not engage in dialog with God, as we do. Thus the different methods: theirs is inwards, ours is outwards. Not good terms, but let’s leave them aside.

As for the goal, as they lack the notion of a personal God, they’re left without a map. The only thing they have is themselves, so they rightfully try to collect their selves from the world, but stop there, not knowing what else to do with it.
Kevin Walker:

On my own initiative, I have thought of a way of merging Eastern meditative technique into Roman Catholic meditative technique, yet I lack a full understanding of what the Church expects out of Catholic meditation.

To Catholics, this dialog can be in words, in thoughts or in love, when the creature corresponds to the Creator’s love for him or her. Prayer properly is what the first case is known as, meditation, the second and contemplation, the third. Yet, all are generally known simply as prayer.

I insist that there’s a semantic problem, for what the Catholic tradition refers to as meditation is quite unlike what far-easterners do. Therefore, leaving the words aside, there is no parallel between Catholic meditation and far-eastern meditation: one engages the mental faculty in a dialog with God, the other often shuts all faculties off.

Externally, someone in contemplative prayer might look like a guru in meditation, but internally there’s an abyss between both. That’s why a far-eastern meditation technique cannot be applied to any form of Catholic prayer, for the goals belong to different worlds: the former, to this passing world, the latter, to the eternal world. As a matter of fact, the goal of far-eastern meditation is itself, whereas that of nay form of prayer is getting closer to the Beloved, the Trinity.

The most important distinction is that all forms of prayer, Catholic meditation inclusive, are gifts of God or grace. It’s only natural that it’s so, for God responds if He wishes to, not because we bribed or trapped Him in doing so, which is absurd. That is the single most important reason why you will not find any technique on Catholic meditation.

You will find though ways to ask for and to seek God, particularly those given to us by the Doctors of the Church, such as St. Teresa’s and St. Ignatius’. But they all hold that it’s through God’s grace that you’ll engage in a dialog with Him.

Sorry if I still don’t make sense to your questions.

 

[YinYangMom]

Whenever I have questions about ‘the Catholic position’ on a matter I like to start at the Vatican website…so I searched on “Meditation” there and this is what I got:

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p4s1c3a1.htm#2707

and of course, your quote is there (CCC 2705-2706)…but also

2707 There are as many and varied methods of meditation as there are spiritual masters. Christians owe it to themselves to develop the desire to meditate regularly, lest they come to resemble the three first kinds of soil in the parable of the sower.5 But a method is only a guide;** the important thing is to advance, with the Holy Spirit, along the one way of prayer: Christ Jesus.**

2708 Meditation engages thought, imagination, emotion, and desire. This mobilization of faculties is necessary in order to deepen our convictions of faith, prompt the conversion of our heart, and strengthen our will to follow Christ. Christian prayer tries above all to meditate on the mysteries of Christ, as in lectio divina or the rosary. This form of prayerful reflection is of great value, but Christian prayer should go further: to the knowledge of the love of the Lord Jesus, to union with him.

It seems to me that meditation is encouraged by the Church to be used as a tool to advance one’s praying, but it is not an end to itself. There isn’t an either/or here by the Church. Note that the Church recognizes there are many methods for meditation and they don’t emphasize the need to develop their own…but rather encourages us to use those already established methods in the proper manner to facilitate Christian prayer - “prayer” being the goal to achieve. It would also seem that the Church has developed a way to use meditation properly in ‘lectio divina’ or the rosary since they specifically mention those here. Perhaps that link to lectio divina provided earlier contains the ‘method’ which you are seeking.
Kevin Walker:

I am a big believer in the power of prayer, and I pray every chance I get. But when I’m told to meditate, I still don’t know ‘how’ to meditate the Catholic way.

According to the CCC 2705-2706

Catholic "Meditation is above all a quest. The mind seeks to understand the why and how of the Christian life, in order to adhere and respond to what the Lord is asking … To the extent that we are humble and faithful. We discover in meditation the movements that stir the heart and we are able to discern them. It is a question of acting truthfully in order to come into the light: "Lord what do you want me to do?"

It’s a bit vague: While the CCC describes what Catholic meditation is, it does not teach ‘how’ to do it.

Since Buddhism actually teaches ‘how’ to meditate (resulting in a measured increase of alpha waves), then does anyone know the Catholic method of meditation?

 

[buzzcut]

These are some good, short introductions to lectio divina:

ACCEPTING THE EMBRACE OF GOD: THE ANCIENT ART of LECTIO DIVINA by Fr. Luke Dysinger, O.S.B.

Lectio Divina and the Practice of Teresian Prayer by Sam Anthony Morello, OCD

 

[Jenlyn]

Kevin,
It seems that contemplation and meditation is being used interchangable. Are you interested in contemplation? Are you interested in having a close relationship with God like St. Teresa of Avila?

This is a great site that talks about contemplation. Contemplation is only given by God. We are passive in this type of prayer. God does all the work. We can do nothing to make it last longer.

newadvent.org/cathen/04324b.htm

There is a book “Come to the Quiet” by John Michael Talbot. He focuses on Christian meditation. He has three parts to his book: The Christian West, The Christain East and The Far East. He tries to combine them. You take a look at it and see if it’s something you are looking for. It wasn’t for me.

Peace,
Jen