How does Catholic meditation work, (not prayers.)

[Kevin_Walker]

YinYangMom:

It would also seem that the Church has developed a way to use meditation properly in ‘lectio divina’ or the rosary since they specifically mention those here. Perhaps that link to lectio divina provided earlier contains the ‘method’ which you are seeking.

Hi YinYangMom, Thanks for all this information and effort. Yes, the *lectio divina *did provide instruction for a method of meditation, however very rudimentary. This method is an already establish procedure which I had apparently ‘reinvented’ in my quest for a way of Catholic meditation. But it will provide a good stepping stone for improvement with some of my ideas.

For example, the methodology of meditation provided by the *lectio divina, *while servicible, appears, in my humble opinion :bowdown: , to be applicable only for a cloistered Monk, or the professional ordained Priest, someone who has removed themselves from the world and is not confronted with life’s daily slings & arrows. I feel Catholic meditation should also provide a coping mechanism for the average working Catholic to solve problems, relieve stress, increase a curiosity in the Gospels, the use of the Lord’s wisdom in solving severe life problems, and provide a repeatable methodology which can be applied anywhere at will (and will still conform to Church doctines!).

So these are just a few of the parameters which I am working around in my research on Catholic meditation.

 

[Augustine]

Kevin Walker:

For example, the methodology of meditation provided by the *lectio divina, *while servicible, appears, in my humble opinion :bowdown: , to be applicable only for a cloistered Monk, or the professional ordained Priest, someone who has removed themselves from the world and is not confronted with life’s daily slings & arrows.

Take a look at St. Ignatious of Loyola spiritual exercises.

HTH

 

[Augustine]

Kevin Walker:

Now to answer your question, the reason Catholic meditation would exclude prayer, is that by the very definition of meditation that is does not include prayer.

I’m afraid we’re going in circles here. If whenever God calls a souls closer is prayer, what’s meditation, as you understand it, good for? Or are you referring to the strict meaning of prayer as in vocal prayer?

 

[Augustine]

Kevin Walker:

The technique of meditation exists outside of religion, even atheists, pagans, lawyers, and philosophers meditate.

If it’s got nothing to do with religion in general or with Catholicism in particular, why should there be what you propose, Catholic meditation?
Kevin Walker:

So far I have gone out and tried to meditate and pray at the same time, and I cannot do it! And I will not pretend that I am meditating as I concentrate on my prayers, both in Latin and in English.

I think you actually mean vocal prayer, for contemplative or infused prayers need no words…

Perhaps my exposure to such past attempts, from New Age to Merton, makes me weary of yet another syncretism, by definition incompatible with Catholicism.

Why do you think that Catholicism is missing something for not having any form of meditation as Eastern philosophies do?

Prayer is necessary to get in Heaven and anything else is nothing but a distraction from prayer. There’s just no substitute for prayer.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Augustine:

Take a look at St. Ignatious of Loyola spiritual exercises.

HTH

In the version I read, they were called “prayer exercises”.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Augustine:

I’m afraid we’re going in circles here. If whenever God calls a souls closer is prayer, what’s meditation, as you understand it, good for? Or are you referring to the strict meaning of prayer as in vocal prayer?

I am referring to that which I am requested by a Priest to do but is not prayer.

For example, in one of my religious classes on the Prodgigal (sp?) Son, the Priest handed out a small painting of this parable done by Rembrandt, and told us to ‘meditate’ over it. No one in the class prayed! And no one in class knew how to ‘meditate’ on this particular painting. So obviously, de facto, there is a difference between ‘meditation’ and prayer. I just want to hammer out a method of meditation which is compatible to Catholicism (and which is not prayer).

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Augustine:

If it’s got nothing to do with religion in general or with Catholicism in particular, why should there be what you propose, Catholic meditation?

The point was that Eastern religion does not have a monopoly on meditation. And since ‘meditation’ is a method independent of religion, then Catholicism is free to develop it to suit the needs of Christianity as the Buddhists and Taoists have to fit their needs.

Why do you think that Catholicism is missing something for not having any form of meditation as Eastern philosophies do?

Because as the Pope had correctly pointed out in his encyclical letter of *Rosarium Virginis Mariae *that more and more Christians are being drawn to and practicing Eastern Meditation techniques, sometimes more than just for physical fitness. Obviously something is missing in the Catholic repetoire of spiritual exercises that Christians are finding in Eastern practices. And in my opinion that something is a pragmatic and effective Catholic method of meditation.

Prayer is necessary to get in Heaven and anything else is nothing but a distraction from prayer. There’s just no substitute for prayer.

Meditation is not prayer, and is not going to surplant it.

 

[Augustine]

Kevin Walker:

In the version I read, they were called “prayer exercises”.

Regardless, they are exercises that anyone in any stage of life can do in order to get closer to God, one thing that every baptized Christian is called to be, not only ordained ones.

 

[Augustine]

Kevin Walker:

The point was that Eastern religion does not have a monopoly on meditation. And since ‘meditation’ is a method independent of religion, then Catholicism is free to develop it to suit the needs of Christianity as the Buddhists and Taoists have to fit their needs.

And what unfulfilled need does Catholicism have which “meditation” would? Why do you think that Catholicism needs “meditation”?
Kevin Walker:

Because as the Pope had correctly pointed out in his encyclical letter of *Rosarium Virginis Mariae *that more and more Christians are being drawn to and practicing Eastern Meditation techniques, sometimes more than just for physical fitness. Obviously something is missing in the Catholic repetoire of spiritual exercises that Christians are finding in Eastern practices.

The Pope also pointed out that they were allured by a misguided desire for spirituality that they could only find in the Eucharist, not anywhere else. Never did he say that Eastern meditation was the answer, rather a false answer to their desires. He said that what they really desire is Christ, particularly in the Eucharist. So, why “Catholic meditation”?

 

[Augustine]

Kevin Walker:

I am referring to that which I am requested by a Priest to do but is not prayer.

Yet again, you mean vocal prayer, right?
Kevin Walker:

For example, in one of my religious classes on the Prodgigal (sp?) Son, the Priest handed out a small painting of this parable done by Rembrandt, and told us to ‘meditate’ over it. No one in the class prayed! And no one in class knew how to ‘meditate’ on this particular painting. So obviously, de facto, there is a difference between ‘meditation’ and prayer. I just want to hammer out a method of meditation which is compatible to Catholicism (and which is not prayer).

And just why do you think he was referring to some variation of Eastern meditation? Couldn’t he be referring to ordinary meditation, as in wondering what situation was depicted in the picture? Why do you want to read “Eastern meditative practices” in each and every mention of the term “meditation”?

Better than me, others have pointed out what meditation means in a Catholic context, as well as the multi-faceted meanings of the term “prayer”. Perhaps, if you want others to understand this, it’s time to recognize and make clear your vocabulary and to stop pretending that it’s the same as that of the Catholic tradition. Moreover, explain why the Church is producing fewer saints because she doesn’t have a meditative technique.

Think of me as the devil’s advocate.

 

[YinYangMom]

Kevin Walker:

Hi YinYangMom, Thanks for all this information and effort. Yes, the *lectio divina *did provide instruction for a method of meditation, however very rudimentary. This method is an already establish procedure which I had apparently ‘reinvented’ in my quest for a way of Catholic meditation. But it will provide a good stepping stone for improvement with some of my ideas.

For example, the methodology of meditation provided by the *lectio divina, *while servicible, appears, in my humble opinion :bowdown: , to be applicable only for a cloistered Monk, or the professional ordained Priest, someone who has removed themselves from the world and is not confronted with life’s daily slings & arrows. I feel Catholic meditation should also provide a coping mechanism for the average working Catholic to solve problems, relieve stress, increase a curiosity in the Gospels, the use of the Lord’s wisdom in solving severe life problems, and provide a repeatable methodology which can be applied anywhere at will (and will still conform to Church doctines!).

So these are just a few of the parameters which I am working around in my research on Catholic meditation.

Hello KevinWalker,

Are you sure you aren’t my husband in cognito??

I think I comprehend what you’re seeking a coping mechanism for the average working Catholic to solve problems, relieve stress, increase a curiosity in the Gospels, the use of the Lord’s wisdom in solving severe life problems, and provide a repeatable methodology which can be applied anywhere at will] for it sounds very similar to my husband’s search…

What I’m not able to comprehend is why prayer doesn’t do the trick for you or him as it does for me:

It solves my problems (actually I don’t consider problems as such but rather as my cross to bear, similar to Christ, so I don’t seek to solve them as much as I do to endure them - see them through to the end, whatever that may be),

it relieves my stress (especially when I hand over whatever is worrying me to Christ),

I’ve had a few severe life problems which prayer and scripture have helped tremendously,

and the rosary and Divine Mercy chaplet are very repetitive and can be said anytime, anywhere…

But you and he have actually tasted meditation and can’t imagine having to do without just because it’s not strictly Catholic. I wish I could help, and I wish even more that perhaps you can help me understand my husband better. I’ve never felt the need to meditate in the way you’ve described or as my husband has studied so I don’t understand the need you two have. I see it only as his inability to embrace whatever the Church has offered…for some readon he wants the Church to change or grow or something, I dont’ know what…to accommodate his appreciation for meditation, and that doesn’t strike me as what we’re supposed to be doing. Rather than change the church I’ve always thought we were supposed to strive to change our hearts to recognize the Truth and embrace it for what it is.

If you ever figure out this new technique you’re seeking to develop, however, I hope you’ll let us know here because I’m sure my husband would be most interested in it!

Peace.

YYM

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Augustine:

Yet again, you mean vocal prayer, right?

No. ANY kind of prayer. Meditation is not any kind of prayer at all.

Why do you want to read “Eastern meditative practices” in each and every mention of the term “meditation”?

In fact I am not reading “Eastern meditative practices” in any of my mentioning of the technique: Meditation. I have, and will continue to use, the Eastern form of mediation as an ANALOGY for our minds to grasp what the Buddhist and Taoists have done with meditation, and that Catholics should do something similar with meditation to modify meditative methods to fit a Christian purpose.

Better than me, others have pointed out what meditation means in a Catholic context, as well as the multi-faceted meanings of the term “prayer”. Perhaps, if you want others to understand this, it’s time to recognize and make clear your vocabulary and to stop pretending that it’s the same as that of the Catholic tradition.

Standard English vocabulary. Concentration, Meditation, and Praying are all different and are not one in the same.

Yet another ANALOGY: When I play chess, I pray for a victory, I concentrate during the game, and I meditate over the strategy. *

Now, I want to research a better method of Meditating over chess strategy (not praying or concentrating). So I analyze and research every book or paper written by a chess master, I then eliminate everything which doesn’t fit my knowledge or parameters of meditation in chess. Then I experiment with trial & error until the meditative technique I am research works and fits my needs and that of other chess players. I submit my research results for peer review and/or evaluation by my superiors in Chess. I then review all the criticisms and approvals, modifiy my results, then submit my Chess meditation methods for publication.

Moreover, explain why the Church is producing fewer saints because

she doesn’t have a meditative technique. I’m sorry, but you totally lost me here.

Think of me as the devil’s advocate.

Not hard to do.*

 

[springbreeze]

Dear friend

If you desire to meditate on God in any way shape or form, it is prayer and it can never be anything else but prayer because to think of God is to call upon His Holy name and as He is always present with us, when we recollect Him in any shape or form He is there always, He never leaves you and meditation is always prayer when you meditate upon God.

Do you think you should write a book without Him?

Personally I do not do anything withut Him, I do all things with Him and my whole life is prayer. I want God to be in all parts of my life because He gifted my life to me therefore I desire for Him to be the master of my life and for this life of mine to be His, (it is no longer I but Christ that lives) or would you contradict Gospel? Whatever I do…talk to Him, listen to Him, meditate upon Him, the work I do, the play I do, the conversations I have, the words I type etc no matter how small it is He is concerned in all of it.

In your search to innovate you have forgotten that all life is prayer so whatever we do in life is prayer…you have forgotten God.

Prayer is life or would you contradict the great doctors of the church? Nothing then in life if it is seeking God is not prayer, all things are prayer and meditation is prayer…you seek something which just is not there.

I say this not of myself, I say it out of truth, I have no idea why you would seek to meditate that which is not prayer, what are you doing in meditation if it is not prayer? You never answered my last post because dear friend you have no answer, you have nothing to add to what has already gone before you.

You are infact learning about what has gone before you and you know little of prayer, but your own desire to innovate, though you are not wise in prayer yourself, this is nothing short of pride.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[Augustine]

Kevin,No. ANY kind of prayer. Meditation is not any kind of prayer at all.
I honestly believe that you have some homework to do first: learn what the Church teaches on prayer. In fact I am not reading “Eastern meditative practices” in any of my mentioning of the technique: Meditation.
You certainly gave that impression when you mentioned that class on the Prodigal Son…I have, and will continue to use, the Eastern form of mediation as an ANALOGY for our minds to grasp what the Buddhist and Taoists have done with meditation, and that Catholics should do something similar with meditation to modify meditative methods to fit a Christian purpose.
What have Easterners grasped with their minds that Catholics should mimic? IMO, you’re assuming too much and explaining too little.

Not that you have to, but if you sincerely expects to expose your ideas to the Church at large, you must, if you want to be understood. Standard English vocabulary. Concentration, Meditation, and Praying are all different and are not one in the same.
We’re not talking about English vocabulary, but the specialized Catholic vocabulary. Yet another ANALOGY: When I play chess, I pray for a victory, I concentrate during the game, and I meditate over the strategy. *
My turn to use analogies: approaching chess and devoting your body and mind to it is akin to willing to approach God your body, mind and soul, i.e., prayer in the general sense.Now, I want to research a better method of Meditating over chess strategy (not praying or concentrating). So I analyze and research every book or paper written by a chess master, I then eliminate everything which doesn’t fit my knowledge or parameters of meditation in chess. Then I experiment with trial & error until the meditative technique I am research works and fits my needs and that of other chess players. I submit my research results for peer review and/or evaluation by my superiors in Chess. I then review all the criticisms and approvals, modifiy my results, then submit my Chess meditation methods for publication.
Only that you’d have to submit your results not to your peers, but to God. And that can only be done through prayer, short of an apparition. I’m sorry, but you totally lost me here.
Please, explain why what you want to achieve is important to the Church at large, i.e., all her members. We are all called to holiness, so how does meditation make us hollier, better disciples of Christ? Not hard to do.
You’ve certainly been very patient with me, in spite of all my pestering.
*

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Augustine:

You’ve certainly been very patient with me, in spite of all my pestering.

I also have to be honest with you. I am holding my cards close to my chest since I do not want to give a total presentation of my ideas and research results on a wide open public forum on the internet. I’ve written for two newspapers and have had a magazine article published which has made me wary of intellectual property rights. So it seems in fact that you have been very patient with me. Thanx!

 

[Jenlyn]

Is meditation prayer? Yes it is. A description can be found in the Catechism 2705-2708. It is in “Part Four Christian Prayer.” Under Article 1 Expressions of Prayer. It is the 2 example of prayer in Article 1 along with Vocal Prayer and Contemplation.

In 2708 it says," Christian prayer tries above all to meditate on the mysteries of Christ, as in Lectio Divina or the Rosary. This form of prayerful reflection is of great value, but Christian prayer should go further: to the knowledge of the love of the Lord Jesus, to union with him." (This last statement leads into the contemplation section which follows rather well.)

The word prayer is in this section 3 times.

It does say in section 2707 that there are different methods to meditate. We should meditate regularly. “But a method is only a guide; the important thing is to advance, with the Holy Spirit, along the way one way of prayer.”

Meditation is prayer, period.

Trying to figure out a way to make buddist medation work in the Catholic Church isn’t going to happen. As Catholics we stay away from it for a reason. It must be Christ centered and that isn’t going to happen using their method.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Jenlyn:

It does say in section 2707 that there are different methods to meditate. We should meditate regularly. “But a method is only a guide; the important thing is to advance, with the Holy Spirit, along the way one way of prayer.”

This just tells me that the Catholic Church has emphasized prayer over meditation in its historical development.

Meditation is prayer, period.

I am still unable to pray and meditate or meditate while praying at the same time.

Trying to figure out a way to make buddist medation work in the Catholic Church isn’t going to happen. As Catholics we stay away from it for a reason. It must be Christ centered and that isn’t going to happen using their method.

I have no intention of trying to figure out a way of incorporating Buddhist or Taoism meditation into the teachings of the Catholic Church. I was using Buddhist meditation as an ‘analogy’ that the Catholic Church should develop its own meditative technique just as the Buddhist have done for their religion.

Thank you.

 

[brabble]

I think that meditation is to reflect about - it is a pondering, or thinking about. While prayer is an awareness, a level of knowing. In religious meditation we may think about God’s Goodness, or His Mercy etc. or perhaps some incident or the words of Jesus in the Gospels etc. and meditation is meant to, and I think eventually does lead to awareness i.e. to simply know that God is Good, or is Merciful, that He is present etc. I think that they can and often do overlap and that the line between cannot be drawn. Doubtless, Catholic meditation, thinking about, is meant to bring us to awareness, to knowing on some level. Nevertheles, it is not something that we can acquire, or I don’t think so, it is a gift - something given to us.

I think that meditation is something that we are doing, while prayer is something that is being done in us. As it is difficult to state where meditation ends and prayer beings, it is also difficult to state where prayer becomes contemplation. A meditation can be a contemplative experience but not necessarily so.

Nor do I think anyway all these distinctions are particularly helpful but can cloud the issue of prayer. Prayer is the outreaching of Faith - and it can move from belief or believing to knowing . . . that to me is the contemplative experience. Prayer finds its full flowering in an outpouring of gratitude and praise from
‘a knowing’, which is not necessarily as simple as that sounds. No one who turns to God for any reason will flounder - maybe difficulties along the way - but you sort of get there!!! . . . wherever indeed ‘there’ is!!!

 

[Rooter]

Kevin Walker:

I just did some research on the book: The Ways of Mental Prayer by Dom Vitalis Lehodey, and it was described to be originally written as a comtemplative prayer manual for the Trappists, a prayer method based on Eastern meditation which I have already disagreed.

The book was written about 1907 long before anyone had ever heard of eastern meditation. Also if you’re worried the book might not be Catholic enough, the letter in the front is from St Pius X, one of the most anti-modernist popes ever.

 

[Jenlyn]

Kevin Walker:

This just tells me that the Catholic Church has emphasized prayer over meditation in its historical development.QUOTE]

Meditation is in the prayer section. It is a part of prayer. There’s no emphasizing of one or the other. Meditation has its part and it is one of the different ways to pray. Just because there is a section on Contemplation doesn’t mean that that is the focus. Meditation is not playing second fiddle to vocal prayer and contemplation.

I am still unable to pray and meditate or meditate while praying at the same time.

A good spiritual director will help you with this.