How does Christ save us?

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I have looked through other threads and they are helpful but I’m still not clear. The atonement views seem to leave huge gaps.

There is a “God” → I have absolute conviction of this. It’s not about faith -this is a fact.
Christ resurrected in the flesh → This is my faith. I don’t have absolute conviction.

But how does he save us?
I am familiar with the scriptures. I’m afraid I need a logical argument.

Thank You 😉
 
I’m afraid I need a logical argument.
No problem.

Why do we NEED to be saved in the first place? Because one man, representing all of humanity (namely Adam) disobeyed God.

Logically, how do we cancel that out? We need one man, representing all of humanity (namely Jesus) to obey God.

It is not the Resurrection that saves us - it is the obedience of Christ.
Although he was in the form of God, he did not regard equality with God something to be grasped, but rather he emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, and being made in the likeness of men. It was thus that he humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Phillipians 6
​
 
But is it truly just obedience or is it the sacraficial death on the cross that saves us? Because if he didnt give his life up for us then salvation would not be available Adam caused death Christ causes life! Pax Christi
 
David,
I am in agreement with what you are saying and I get that Christ is the “new Adam.” But how does a “new Adam” save us?

Andrew,
Sacrificial death = this is where I get lost.

THANKS
 
A few beginning principles:

-God is an infinite being.
-Man is a finite being.
-Offenses need to be rectified by the offending party.
-The gap between finite and infinite cannot be bridged by the finite being, only by the infinite being.

Adam and eve committed that first human offense against God. The effects of that first sin leave a stain on our soul that we call original sin. The sin has many effects in us, but the effect pertinent to this question is the absence of sanctifying grace in the newborn person. I would liken it to a couple buying a home. They take out a loan and move into the home before it is paid off by them. As long as they are fulfilling the obligations of the loan, they are allowed to live in the home. Once they fail to fulfill those obligations, they can be evicted by the bank. They also forfeit their rights to pass the property on to their children. Eternal life and bliss belong solely to God. Any share in that life could be looked at somewhat like the loan. Adam and Eve did not fulfill the obligations of the loan, and were thus evicted from the Garden of Eden but also from the share in God’s eternal life. Their descendants, like the inheritors in the loan example, also suffer the consequences.

That offense needs to be rectified for man to once again share in the life of God. Because man is finite and cannot repair the offense against the infinite God, God became man to repair the damage. Jesus was fully God and fully man. As God, he could bridge the gap between the infinite and the finite. As man, he could offer himself in reparation for the sins of mankind. The consequence that God told Adam and Eve they would have is death. Jesus takes that consequence upon himself and allows that consequence to have the full necessary effect of satisfying the infinite offense that Adam and Eve’s sin was.

I hope that helps as a basic logical look at it.
 
I didn’t get it. The obedience of Jesus wasn’t enough?
Just one drop of His precious blood wouldn’t safe us?
 
Thank you so much everybody.

“As man, he could offer himself in reparation for the sins of mankind.”
“Just one drop of his precious blood wouldn’t save us?”

This sounds like a sacrifical system, wherein Christ is the sacrifical lamb. This is where the atonement theories talk about a payment being made -to God or to Satan, depending on the theory. Since some are saved and others aren’t, something is happening within some people that is different from the ones not saved.

How does Christ save those that are saved as opposed to those that are not? Maybe that’s a better way to ask…?
 
Jesus as God was obediant from the begining. But had to do something to show us what true love is and by giving ones life up for all. He did so in a brutal way to show us no matter what others do to you thru prayer and faith it will get ya to heaven. But first just like in passover when they slaughtered the perfect lambs and smeared the blood around the door so the angel of death would not come to their house Jesus is the tru lamb that was given up once and for all. This is tru love. Nothing technichal about it!! Pax Christi
 
Christ already has saved us but we have to be open to that and by doing as he instructed us !. To put the love of God above all other things 2. To love oneanother as he loves us those are the commandments he gave us to follow. If we do that then it all falls into place! Pax Christi
 
No problem.

Why do we NEED to be saved in the first place? Because one man, representing all of humanity (namely Adam) disobeyed God.

Logically, how do we cancel that out? We need one man, representing all of humanity (namely Jesus) to obey God.

It is not the Resurrection that saves us - it is the obedience of Christ.
Correct. It’s not faith in Christ that saves us. But the faithfulness of Christ that saves us. As you said, it is through his obedience (faithfulness) that we are saved.
 
How does Christ save those that are saved as opposed to those that are not? Maybe that’s a better way to ask…?
Sounds like the confusion is coming out the difference between redemption and salvation. What I described above is properly speaking “redemption.” The death of Christ redeemed all men, meaning the payment for their sin has been made. Redemption is an event.

Salvation, however, is ultimately achieved when one enters Heaven. Salvation, as opposed to redemption, is a process. Salvation comes through our acceptance of God’s free gift of grace. With that acceptance, we become members of the body of Christ and are given the privilege of sharing in His life.

All are redeemed, but not all are saved.
 
Christ saves us through redemption and atonement. To gain salvation (in the sense of accepting Christ’s offer of salvation) we must have true faith in him which will produce good works. It is not by belief alone nor is it only through what we do. This is because Christ wants all of humanity to be in communion with Him in Heaven however God gave us free will. We can choose to accept salvation or refuse it. Hope this helps
 
I have looked through other threads and they are helpful but I’m still not clear. The atonement views seem to leave huge gaps.

There is a “God” → I have absolute conviction of this. It’s not about faith -this is a fact.
Christ resurrected in the flesh → This is my faith. I don’t have absolute conviction.

But how does he save us?
I am familiar with the scriptures. I’m afraid I need a logical argument.

Thank You 😉
My (rough-draft) logic
  1. In life, we are all seeking peace, happiness, and/or longevity. Since we all struggle with having the greatest amount of peace, happiness, and longevity because we do not know how to achieve it, one could say that we are “suffering.”
  2. Though there are several different methods to obtaining peace, happiness, and/or longevity, the ONLY method to achieving the pinnacle of all three aspects simultaneously is Unconditional Love.
  3. The only being that completely understands and perfectly practices Unconditional Love is God, hence “Omniscient.”
  4. In order to share the Incredible Pinnacle of peace, happiness, and longevity, he had to give us free will without the “knowledge” of Unconditional Love, so that we may come to fully appreciate it (and not be robots).
  5. Since we do not have the “knowledge,” He came down from Heaven to show us how to practice Unconditional Love as human beings of a heavily conditional world. His greatest work was His Crucifixion. He clearly demonstrates how to be unconditionally patient and kind even in the face of unjust hatred.
  6. Therefore, through the study of Jesus Christ’s Love and striving to Love as He loved, we will obtain the culmination of peace, happiness, and longevity, where the pinnacle of each aspect is ever-lasting/eternal.
  7. In other words: A. “No one comes to the father, except through [Jesus].” B. When you love as Jesus loved, All sins are forgiven. C. If you dedicate your life to love God as Jesus did, you will be “saved!”
I think my logic may be a little wordy, but I am definitely excited to hear your thoughts! Thanks for asking the same question I ponder so many days of my life!
 
TheScott → Yes, I think it’s fair to say that there is, at least, an attempt to talk about the atonement theories. I read the link you gave me -thank you.

B]And thank you to everyone.
  1. Sorry for saying that I wanted a “logical” argument. What I mean is something that is comprehendible, that follows some sort of reason. I realize this is tricky.
  2. All of these responses are interesting but each of them begs a thousand questions. The atonement theories beg a thousand questions. All of them require that you assume certain things are true. You must assume X to believe Y. So there is no “reasoning” here. A scientist would tell me that and they’d be right. So I am willing to forego a certain amount of reasoning in order to get a basic comprehension but there are too many steps being left out.
How does Christ save us? No one can really answer this question without making certain assumptions.
  1. What is the main assumption being made? This brings us all back to the Catholic pov, the Catholic atonement theory. In that theory, God’s honor is due and that honor must be paid with death. At this point, we are back in the OT philosophy where animals were sacrificed for human sin. It’s a huge difference, using Christ, but the basic philosophy is the same -that another being can take on our sins and that the taking must be paid through death.
I cannot pretend to buy into this belief. It makes God come across no less cruel than the God in the penal substitution pov. Even if Christ IS God -it’s cruel. And it relies on “atonement,” which is not biblical.
  1. It makes sense to me that all we have to do is have faith. But that still begs a thousand questions. 🙂
  2. I read a post from years ago that Fr. Ambrose wrote on. Is he a priest? Is he still here?
THANK YOU
 
]

All of them require that you assume certain things are true. You must assume X to believe Y. So there is no “reasoning” here.
Logic is defined as the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference. To make inferences you must have defined initial premises off of which you are going to make those inferences. So when you ask for a logical answer, you are going to get answers based upon premises. Following the consequences of premises is what “reasoning” is, so it’s incorrect to say that there is no reasoning here because of assumptions.

What you seem to be asking for now is a proof of these premises. That sort of changes the question at this point into one that is a bit more difficult to tackle. Before I could begin to delve into that I would need to know what you require for proof. Are the Church’s miracles enough? Are the writings of wise men throughout the ages enough? Are observations on human nature enough? Are people’s personal experiences enough?

As far as the cruelty question goes I would direct you to an article I recently wrote on that question: fireofthylove.com/2011/06/27/is-god-cruel/
 
I have looked through other threads and they are helpful but I’m still not clear. The atonement views seem to leave huge gaps.

There is a “God” → I have absolute conviction of this. It’s not about faith -this is a fact.
Christ resurrected in the flesh → This is my faith. I don’t have absolute conviction.

But how does he save us?
I am familiar with the scriptures. I’m afraid I need a logical argument.

Thank You 😉
With the fall, humankind fell into a pit, exiled from the God who created and still sustained them. But the exile was a matter of their own free choice. They *preferred *themselves to God, according to the Catechism. Original sin could be described, in part, as this unnatural separation-and this preference to keep things that way. Anyway, as a result we don’t even know where we came from, if anywhere, what we’re to do here, if anything, and where we’re going, if anywhere. And that pretty well describes the situation of someone who’s lost.

Who can save us? Can anyone from within our own ranks tell us who we are and why we’re here, let alone answer the ultimate question, is there life after this one-does any of it all really matter in the end? No one here can answer those questions because we’re all in the same pit. So the Good Shepard came to save His sheep, by first of all showing us the face of God, IOW that God exists, giving us FAITH, meanwhile demonstrating that God is good, giving us HOPE, and ultimately showing us the LOVE of God, and proving it in no uncertain terms by the sacrifice on Calvary. And the resurrection caps it all off by telling us that it ain’t all over at death and that a life of eternal happiness awaits those who follow Jesus on this path of humility and love.

None of this makes any difference unless we can believe it, of course, but this is exactly what the reconciliation won for us-that God would, by His grace, indwell us and work with us, and give us the power, by His grace, to believe again what Adam & Eve should’ve already known, and what they let go of and lost for us all. IOW, Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners. But God didn’t override Adam & Eves’ freedom and He won’t override ours now. He desires that, via those lessons learned like the Prodigal did while away from home, we come to cooperate, that we come to our senses and recognize His wisdom and our need for Him after all.

All of this, from the original revelations of God to man recorded in the OT, through the fullest revelation of Christ by the incarnation, is a work of His grace, of His initiative, His plan of salvation. We’re the wild card in it all. Mankind “hated Him without reason”, according to scripture, and mistrusted Him without reason, according to the Catechism. He seeks, by a radical act of loving sacrifice, to draw us back to Him, proving what He should never have had to prove, that He loves us with an unfathomably powerful and unconditional love, and that nothing but sin separates us from that love. As part of the reconciliation He forgives us our sin and promises that, if we live like Jesus did, continuously in union with the Father, we, too, can overcome sin.

Jesus saves us by bringing us back to the authentic Father, who then writes His laws on our hearts and in our minds by perfecting us in love, fulfilling OT New Covenant prophesies such as those found in Jer 31 and simultaneously fulfilling the greatest commandments, thereby making us fully just…
 
fhansen,
A lot of thought went into that -thank you. I’m in agreement; almost everything you’re saying is what I’ve heard and what I believe in. 👍

FireofthyLove,
Thanks for all your posts. I’ll agree to disagree on whether the comments here are based on reason, but that doesn’t mean I don’t believe them or that they aren’t true. And no, I’m not looking for proof. If I was looking for proof, I’d be an archaeologist. 😉

If I’m understanding the Catholic atonement view correctly, Christ is the sacrificial lamb.
From what I understand, it’s a belief the church developed at least a thousand years after his death.
 
My (rough-draft) logic
  1. In life, we are all seeking peace, happiness, and/or longevity. Since we all struggle with having the greatest amount of peace, happiness, and longevity because we do not know how to achieve it, one could say that we are “suffering.”
  2. Though there are several different methods to obtaining peace, happiness, and/or longevity, the ONLY method to achieving the pinnacle of all three aspects simultaneously is Unconditional Love.
  3. The only being that completely understands and perfectly practices Unconditional Love is God, hence “Omniscient.”
  4. In order to share the Incredible Pinnacle of peace, happiness, and longevity, he had to give us free will without the “knowledge” of Unconditional Love, so that we may come to fully appreciate it (and not be robots).
  5. Since we do not have the “knowledge,” He came down from Heaven to show us how to practice Unconditional Love as human beings of a heavily conditional world. His greatest work was His Crucifixion. He clearly demonstrates how to be unconditionally patient and kind even in the face of unjust hatred.
  6. Therefore, through the study of Jesus Christ’s Love and striving to Love as He loved, we will obtain the culmination of peace, happiness, and longevity, where the pinnacle of each aspect is ever-lasting/eternal.
  7. In other words: A. “No one comes to the father, except through [Jesus].” B. When you love as Jesus loved, All sins are forgiven. C. If you dedicate your life to love God as Jesus did, you will be “saved!”
I think my logic may be a little wordy, but I am definitely excited to hear your thoughts! Thanks for asking the same question I ponder so many days of my life!
I so agree with you…I think being “saved” is completely dependent on learning the “hows” of unconditional love/ forgiveness as Jesus modeled for us during His life and particularly as He died…thanks for your comments!
 
  1. Sorry for saying that I wanted a “logical” argument. What I mean is something that is comprehendible, that follows some sort of reason. I realize this is tricky.
How does Christ save us? No one can really answer this question without making certain assumptions.

How does Christ save those that are saved as opposed to those that are not? Maybe that’s a better way to ask…?
I find answering your question very intriguing! I believe there is a scientific method of proving, “Christ Saves Us” Therefore, I would like to try again.

First, I would like to hear your thoughts on the method of proof before diving deeper into the proof.

Method of Proof
  1. Begin with a free-willed condition-based agnostic view of life
  2. Explore the observations of best and not-so-good practices of governments and individuals in achieving peace, happiness, and longevity throughout its citizens and within the self and family.
  3. Explore the concept of applying the Copyright/Patent System to these Philosophies.
  4. Identify/Analyze the first mentions of all these best practices in History/Literature (whether fictional or non-fictional).
  5. Align Jesus’ behaviors and words (without regard to its actuality) with the best practices to achieve peace, happiness, and longevity, given a free-willed condition-based people.
  6. Give credit to Jesus for Saving Us from lives of strife & distress (or in the least, saving those that choose to follow his leadership)!
 
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