How does determinism influence 'free will'?

[stenlis]

I haven’t seen a coherent definition of what actually ‘free will’ is. But that’s not what I want to ask here - I suppose ‘free will’ is some kind of ‘control over one’s actions’. What I do find puzzling is - how does determinism/non-determinism enter free will. Because, to me it seems that it doesn’t.

Let me illustrate that on an example of two robots - one deterministic, one non-deterministic:

Suppose I create a robot for mowing my lawn.

1. I create a definite deterministic formula of what path the robot should take to cover my yard - very straightforward - the robot will always take the same path when I send him out to do his job. Clearly, it would be hard to say that he has any ‘free will’ as his actions are totally subjected to a simple formula
2. I let the robot use pure chance. I program it in such a way that it will follow a straight path until it hits an obstacle (or the end of the yard) and then he will randomly choose a new direction (i.e. he will toss a die or measure the spin of a couple of electrons or use whatever you would consider a truly non-deterministic source to get a random direction). In this case, it also doesn’t seem like the robot has any kind of ‘free will’ as he has no power over what the outcome of a truly random event will be.

So here are my questions:

• why do you think determinism/non-determinism influences ‘free will’?
• what would the robot have to have in order for you to say that he has a ‘free will’? could you define it rather than just give a fancy name to it (i.e. saying that he had to have ‘soul’ does not explain much unless you define it)?

 

[Thing]

Programe it to plug itself into the mains to recharge its batteries. Programe the option to plug in or not to plug in. Programe the outcome of both choices; plugin = continued sevice, not plugin = scrapheap. Do not programe a random select, leave both courses in your program open. Programe your robot with knowledge of robot vices and virtues. Robot is now free to select with free will.

 

[06convert]

What in the world are we talking about here? lol.

Robots dont’ have free will.

 

[tonyrey]

I haven’t seen a coherent definition of what actually ‘free will’ is.

The power of self-determination.

why do you think determinism/non-determinism influences ‘free will’?

Determinism rules out free will because it postulates a physical cause for every human thought and decision.

what would the robot have to have in order for you to say that he has a ‘free will’? could you define it rather than just give a fancy name to it (i.e. saying that he had to have ‘soul’ does not explain much unless you define it)?

The robot would have to be able to think and act creatively rather mechanically according to the way it has been programmed.

 

[stenlis]

What in the world are we talking about here? lol.

Robots dont’ have free will.

The ones I mentioned clearly don’t, but how do you know robots in general don’t (cannot?) have free will?

 

[Genjuu]

I’d say being “pre-programmed” in any sort of way is a complete lack of free will.

In the case of Mr. Robot, you’d be best to just build it and leave it on the lawn to do whatever it wants (as if a lump of metal can “want”).

By determinism, do you mean forcing oneself to do something they actually don’t want to do which flies in the face of what they would do normally?

If so, determinism influences free will by keeping oneself in check from precisely themself. Like when I gave up smoking; I WANTED to have a cigarette and if I had no control I would have kept smoking. But instead I was determined to quit, and unnaturally went against my subconsciousness (for the best, I suppose).

 

[stenlis]

Determinism rules out free will because it postulates a physical cause for every human thought and decision.

But that’s where I get lost. Non-determinism (quantum physics is non-deterministic) also postulates physical cause for human thought - you cannot calculate the outcome beforehand, but you still can’t influence it - like the non-deterministic robot in my example.

The robot would have to be able to think and act creatively rather mechanically according to the way it has been programmed.

That’s an interesting thought. Would you consider Deep Blue, the computer that beat Kasparov at chess, to be creative? What would you consider creative?

 

[stenlis]

I’d say being “pre-programmed” in any sort of way is a complete lack of free will.

Is there anything in this world that is not pre-programmed? Do you consider god creating the first man from scratch ‘to his own image’ pre-programming?

By determinism, do you mean forcing oneself to do something they actually don’t want to do which flies in the face of what they would do normally?

No, deterministic process is a process governed by absolutely predictable law. If you apply it to the whole world, then determinism would mean, that if you could rewind the universe to a state that it was in, say, two hours ago and start it again, those two hours would play out exactly the same way as they did the first time. In a non-deterministic world-view those two hours might have played out differently, because there is some random element involved.

 

[tonyrey]

But that’s where I get lost. Non-determinism (quantum physics is non-deterministic) also postulates physical cause for human thought - you cannot calculate the outcome beforehand, but you still can’t influence it - like the non-deterministic robot in my example.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I haven’t seen a coherent definition of what actually ‘free will’ is. But that’s not what I want to ask here - I suppose ‘free will’ is some kind of ‘control over one’s actions’. What I do find puzzling is - how does determinism/non-determinism enter free will. Because, to me it seems that it doesn’t.

Let me illustrate that on an example of two robots - one deterministic, one non-deterministic:

Suppose I create a robot for mowing my lawn.

1. I create a definite deterministic formula of what path the robot should take to cover my yard - very straightforward - the robot will always take the same path when I send him out to do his job. Clearly, it would be hard to say that he has any ‘free will’ as his actions are totally subjected to a simple formula
2. I let the robot use pure chance. I program it in such a way that it will follow a straight path until it hits an obstacle (or the end of the yard) and then he will randomly choose a new direction (i.e. he will toss a die or measure the spin of a couple of electrons or use whatever you would consider a truly non-deterministic source to get a random direction). In this case, it also doesn’t seem like the robot has any kind of ‘free will’ as he has no power over what the outcome of a truly random event will be.

So here are my questions:

• why do you think determinism/non-determinism influences ‘free will’?
• what would the robot have to have in order for you to say that he has a ‘free will’? could you define it rather than just give a fancy name to it (i.e. saying that he had to have ‘soul’ does not explain much unless you define it)?

Both your robots are pre-determined - by you.

In that respect we are pre-determined along certain lines. We all breath because our brains are hard wired to keep us breathing, no matter what else we might be doing. We can of course stop breathing voluntarily, but only for a lmiited time. We don’t have any conscious control over the chemical reactions in our livers, kidneys, spleen, muscles, skin or anything else.

In that respect we are all pre-determined. We are not predetermined in regards to moral choices, which, incidentally usually seem to consist of “yes” or “no” answers. Nor are we predetermined as to what we’ll do with our time, how we’ll spend our money, and a number of other issues. And we can all say “yes” or “no” to God. That’s our choice.

We are predetermined in that we are limited to humanly possible responses. If a little green man from Mars with little green ears, which were currently drooping from embarassment, dropped by my front door and asked for a room for the night, I might say “yes” and show him in. But I couldn’t grow droopy little green ears out of the top of my head in empathy.

In our conscious choices then, we’re a mixture of determined, or limited, behaviour and free will.