How does God influence our world if we have complete free will?

[LemonAndLime]

When talking about my first experience of Mass, I talked about meeting a Sister just outside the Church. I told her that it was my first Mass and she very happily guided me through it, explaining things and since then we’re good friends and she has given me gifts to represent the beginning of my spiritual journey with the Catholic Church, including a rosary.

A few people on this forum suggested that she was sent by God to guide me, and that me walking in Church the same time as her may not have been a coincidence.

How is that possible if we have free will? There’s no way that God could have “made” her to approach the Church at the exact same time as me, or is there? Very confused. I’m not just asking about the example given above, but about any “intervention” that involves people - how is it possible?

I realise this is probably a question much-repeated so I apologize if I’m starting a new thread when there already is one.

 

[MarianD]

It’s not that God makes anyone do anything. It’s that He inspires a person to do something, and since he/she loves Him, they obey this inspiration.

The sister probably went to Church at a certain time, unknowingly guided by the Holy Spirit. There, she met you, and because of her love for God, she loved you enough to help you know God as well. It all works through inspiration and never coercion.

 

[LemonAndLime]

It’s not that God makes anyone do anything. It’s that He inspires a person to do something, and since he/she loves Him, they obey this inspiration.

The sister probably went to Church at a certain time, unknowingly guided by the Holy Spirit. There, she met you, and because of her love for God, she loved you enough to help you know God as well. It all works through inspiration and never coercion.

Inspires? So like, waking up with the idea to leave 5 minutes earlier than normal?

But that only covers conscious thought. She might have consciously decided to leave 5 minutes earlier/later than normal for example. But what if she was completely unaware? Is it possible to be inspired without knowing it?

 

[PatriceA]

Off the top of my head: you had the complete free will to reject this nun’s help and friendship. You were not forced to seek her out or to sit by her or to strike up a conversation with her. You were open to her friendship and guidance. For me, God is constantly placing people and events and lessons in my life to help better understand Him, His love for me, and what He wants for me here on earth. It is my free will to respond to Him and all He places in my life, or I can completely reject all that (free will) and follow my own plan (ill advised IMO) and completely miss out on all the gifts and blessings God wants to give me. We are free to respond to His knowlege and wisdom and love, at any point in our lives, no matter what we have done to in our past, though we will always have to face the consequences of those decisions. God will constantly seek us out, He will always look for the lost sheep. But we have to be open to Him, that’s our free will. How we respond to God is our free will. The relationship with God can be as close or as distant or even nonexistent in some cases, as we want it to be. That’s what free will means at least for me.

 

[MarianD]

Inspires? So like, waking up with the idea to leave 5 minutes earlier than normal?

But that only covers conscious thought. She might have consciously decided to leave 5 minutes earlier/later than normal for example. But what if she was completely unaware? Is it possible to be inspired without knowing it?

It is possible.

Also, Patrice hit the nail on the head. As part of this inspiration, He places us in various situations and we usually know how to respond because He helps us know what to do/say. Again, you don’t have to do what He wants you to do/say, but you probably will through inspiration.

 

[LemonAndLime]

It is possible.

Also, Patrice hit the nail on the head. As part of this inspiration, He places us in various situations and we usually know how to respond because He helps us know what to do/say. Again, you don’t have to do what He wants you to do/say, but you probably will through inspiration.

Okay, he places us in various situations. But I’m asking HOW does he place us in those various situations, not why or if. How can he put us in those situations without contradicting free will? Patrice only explained the concept of free will, not how God influences our world without contradicting it.

 

[PatriceA]

Okay, he places us in various situations. But I’m asking HOW does he place us in those various situations, not why or if. How can he put us in those situations without contradicting free will? Patrice only explained the concept of free will, not how God influences our world without contradicting it.

He can’t influence your world, my world or this world if we constantly reject Him. The nun in your case was at the church just at the moment you were there as well because I would bet she is in constant prayer with God and constantly asking Him to use her to bring you and others to Him. We influence each other when we have a very active prayer life and relationship with God and we ask him what He wants us to do to make this a better world and then we go out and do it. We continue to ask Him to guide our steps, to give us the right words to use in situations to help others, to make the decisions to support life and not destroy it, to use the gifts and talents God has given us to make this world just a little bit better, etc, etc. We constantly seek out His wisdom for our daily life decisions. When we are intune with Him and His teachings, then we influence the world for the better, He works through us. When we reject Him, He’s no longer the influence in this world as He should be and evil can rule.

Its very similar to a parent and a child. Me as a mother, I can see the decisions my daughter is making and see the consequences much better than she can since she is only 11. She can either seek out my guidance or she can rebel and reject me. Either way its up to her at some point how she wants to live her life, I can only do so much and I can do much more if she submits to my better judgement and experience.

 

[LemonAndLime]

He can’t influence your world, my world or this world if we constantly reject Him. The nun in your case was at the church just at the moment you were there as well because I would bet she is in constant prayer with God and constantly asking Him to use her to bring you and others to Him. We influence each other when we have a very active prayer life and relationship with God and we ask him what He wants us to do to make this a better world and then we go out and do it. We continue to ask Him to guide our steps, to give us the right words to use in situations to help others, to make the decisions to support life and not destroy it, to use the gifts and talents God has given us to make this world just a little bit better, etc, etc. We constantly seek out His wisdom for our daily life decisions. When we are intune with Him and His teachings, then we influence the world for the better, He works through us. When we reject Him, He’s no longer the influence in this world as He should be and evil can rule.

Its very similar to a parent and a child. Me as a mother, I can see the decisions my daughter is making and see the consequences much better than she can since she is only 11. She can either seek out my guidance or she can rebel and reject me. Either way its up to her at some point how she wants to live her life, I can only do so much and I can do much more if she submits to my better judgement and experience.

That doesn’t quite answer my question though. You say she was there because she was in constant prayer with God…therefore devine intervention you say with the Holy Spirit and Inspiration, etc? I don’t see how that is an answer to my question, it’s not direct enough.

 

[PatriceA]

That doesn’t quite answer my question though. You say she was there because she was in constant prayer with God…therefore devine intervention you say with the Holy Spirit and Inspiration, etc? I don’t see how that is an answer to my question, it’s not direct enough.

Then I’m not quite sure what kind of answer you’re looking for. And I’m not sure what you mean by “devine intervention with the Holy Spirit and Inspiration”.

All I know is that there are times I know God is inspiring me, talking to me to approach someone, say something to complete stranger or be somewhere at a certain time, its an intense “gut” feeling. But because of free will, I can either reject that “gut” feeling as nonsense or I can choose to hear God whispering in my ear and move.

 

[Trishie]

So underlying your question is, “what’s the point in petitioning God?” “What’s the point of praying, as we have free will?”

Jesus Christ, God and man replies to the request by His disciples asking Him to teach them how to pray, by teaching them, teaching us what we call "the Lord’s prayer, which includes praise, forgiveness of others, but also several prayers of petition, asking God to grant graces and to influence our lives, as well as to give us our basic needs. So we can trust Jesus who is God and man that free will does not prevent God from influencing our lives and or world.

“Ask and it will be given to you; search, and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For the one who asks always receives; the one who searches, always finds; the one who knocks will always have the door opened to him. Is there a man among you who would hand his son a stone when he asked for bread? Or hand him a snake when he asks for a fish? … How much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!” [Matthew 7:7-11] “Your Father knows what you need even before you ask Him.” [Matthew 6:9]

Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak. Matthew 26:41

“Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.” Mark 11.24

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you” Matthew 7:7

Jesus requires purity of intention, for He commands, “When you stand in prayer, forgive whatever you have against anybody, so that your Father in heaven may forgive your failings too.” [Mark 11:25]

Jesus urges us to pray humbly, without ostentation,“Go into your private room and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in that secret place, and your Father who sees all that is done in secret will reward you.” [Matthew 6:6]
Jesus also desires community prayer, in addition to private prayer, for He says, “if two of you on earth agree to ask anything at all, it will be granted by my Father in heaven. For where two or three meet in my name, I shall be there with them.” [Matthew 18:19-20]

“There is no need to worry; but if there is anything you need, pray for it, asking God for it with prayer and thanksgiving, and that peace of God, which is so much greater than we can understand, will guard your hearts and your thoughts, in Christ Jesus.” [Philippians 4:6-7]

“We are quite confident that if we ask Him for anything, and it is in accordance with His will, He will hear us; and knowing that whatever we ask, He hears us, we know that we have already been granted what we asked of Him.” [John 5:14-15] “If any one of you is in trouble, he should pray; if anyone is feeling happy, he should sing a psalm.” [James 5:13]

How could we assert God cannot influence our lives or the world if we have free will, when God in scripture teaches us that God in fact does do this?

 

[paduard]

"How could we assert God cannot influence our lives or the world if we have free will, when God in scripture teaches us that God in fact does do this? "

I agree and would suggest even further i.e. God’s gift of free will became in itself His influence.

 

[LemonAndLime]

Then I’m not quite sure what kind of answer you’re looking for. And I’m not sure what you mean by “devine intervention with the Holy Spirit and Inspiration”.

All I know is that there are times I know God is inspiring me, talking to me to approach someone, say something to complete stranger or be somewhere at a certain time, its an intense “gut” feeling. But because of free will, I can either reject that “gut” feeling as nonsense or I can choose to hear God whispering in my ear and move.

Okay. That woman might have been “inspired” to go somewhere earlier than normal, but what about coincidental things? If she was inspired to go somewhere earlier, then it involves a conscious thought on her part. I can accept that. But coincidental things like happening to be bump into someone while you’re on your normal routine? Is it just inspiration that God influences?

And No, I’m not saying theres no point in praying if we have free will. Don’t turn this into a debate or an argument please I’m just asking a question.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

When talking about my first experience of Mass, I talked about meeting a Sister just outside the Church. I told her that it was my first Mass and she very happily guided me through it, explaining things and since then we’re good friends and she has given me gifts to represent the beginning of my spiritual journey with the Catholic Church, including a rosary.

A few people on this forum suggested that she was sent by God to guide me, and that me walking in Church the same time as her may not have been a coincidence.

How is that possible if we have free will? There’s no way that God could have “made” her to approach the Church at the exact same time as me, or is there? Very confused. I’m not just asking about the example given above, but about any “intervention” that involves people - how is it possible?

I realise this is probably a question much-repeated so I apologize if I’m starting a new thread when there already is one.

Hi LemonAndLime,
I have a different idea that may help you on free will and predestination and other things. I personally do not believe that every single thing happens for a reason. With that said, I also do not believe in coincidences. The Church to the best of my knowledge has not made an infallible decision on this. If so, then I guess I do. (This is for another discussion). However, I do believe that everything WORKS the way it does for a reason if we let it (free will). These are seemingly contradictory ideas but the paradox is much simpler than you or I can imagine. We have free will. Where does a sin happen? In the will. We choose to accept the Gift of Divine Love or reject it. Sometimes we accept and then reject and vice-versa. It is up to us to realize that we are sinners. Sorrow does not come to us in order to show that we need or want forgiveness. Sorrow comes because we need forgiveness. Anyway, I digress. We are made through Christ for good works (Ephesians 2:8-10 I believe). Now, if you or the Sister had not conformed to God’s will (being made for good works) in keeping the Commandments and skipped out on keeping the sabbath holy (like my morbidly sinning self today), then you probably would not have started this friendship. It is certainly not by chance that you met this person though.

Take for example me. I play trumpet. I was atheist. I met a Catholic girl in undergraduate as a music major who said she would never date an atheist. Well, here I am, a badly sinning Catholic troglodyte. I meet a dude in my graduate studies in music who had been planning on coming to the Church for 2 years but did not know who to talk! During the second year of him waiting, I ask him one question in March about his religion and he is in RCIA now… After two years of curiosity. The atheist may say coincidence or chance. I would ask what the chances were. Is it chance? Not at all. God’s will? I have certitude. There are other things but you get my point.

About the intervention part… That is a very fragile word. It can and has been used improperly. I highly doubt God would intervene for a prayer to get a really good parking space (I have heard of this one) or other superficial things. But of course, there is intervention. Anybody who believes in God should know that He created us through love for Him. He has a master plan that will set us free if we abide by it. Christ was the Ultimate Intervention to destroy death, free us from sin, give us a new life and give us hope in having eternal life and joy with the Source of Life, Truth and Love that created us.

I think I digressed copious amounts but I hope it helps you anyway. Reading it over, I have realized that it does not answer your question of how He does this. I have no idea how it works but I do know that it does. Perhaps, He wants it kept like that. I have no clue considering I am still a baby in the Church (been 2 years now). If you read this far, I am sorry you had to see my illuminating stupidity. But thank you for reading nonetheless

Gregg

 

[fhansen]

When talking about my first experience of Mass, I talked about meeting a Sister just outside the Church. I told her that it was my first Mass and she very happily guided me through it, explaining things and since then we’re good friends and she has given me gifts to represent the beginning of my spiritual journey with the Catholic Church, including a rosary.

A few people on this forum suggested that she was sent by God to guide me, and that me walking in Church the same time as her may not have been a coincidence.

How is that possible if we have free will? There’s no way that God could have “made” her to approach the Church at the exact same time as me, or is there? Very confused. I’m not just asking about the example given above, but about any “intervention” that involves people - how is it possible?

I realise this is probably a question much-repeated so I apologize if I’m starting a new thread when there already is one.

God gives grace-which absolutely can affect man’s will-without him necessarily knowing it -for His purposes. While we are free, we are, in original innocence at least, to be expressions of God. “For in Him we live and move and have our being” Acts 17:28 And nothing we do should be outside His will. But He’s given us a radical freedom-the freedom to reject His will. And while it’s not an absolute freedom, it’s definitely great enough to make us responsible for our own actions in any case. And He can certainly override it, whether overwhelmingly or, more commonly, in minor ways, fashioned to draw without forcing us to do His will by an action or disposition, etc.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Perhaps, if you had gone another previous Sunday, maybe the same thing would have happened. Or perhaps if you had not gone that day but went the next week or month instead, maybe you would have met her then. We will never know.My small brain can only think so much.

Most things in life are not coincidences. Me dropping an egg shell perfectly over the egg yolk on accident without popping the egg… THAT is a coincidence

It is a tough subject but it does make sense. A difficulty should not lead you to a doubt. I am not saying you are doubting, but I can see it is troubling you more than it should. Well, it confuses me but I get confused when my leg falls asleep so my confusion is perpetual. I hope my ideas help you but they probably will not because I have an inability to be clear with my thoughts. Sorry.

Gregg

 

[LemonAndLime]

I think I am more confused now then I was to start off with! Thanks for your answers though, it does help to explain it a bit but maybe how God intervenes is meant to be confusing and mysterious?

And don’t worry about seeming stupid Gregg - you didn’t!

 

[JDaniel]

Okay, he places us in various situations. But I’m asking HOW does he place us in those various situations, not why or if. How can he put us in those situations without contradicting free will? Patrice only explained the concept of free will, not how God influences our world without contradicting it.

LandL:

He does so through the not well known causality of “chance.” Although Chance differs from the other four primary causes, Matter, Form, Efficient and Final, Chance is a cause.

Two people who haven’t seen one another since high school, meet in a motel lobby. One transacting the business of registering, and the other, the business of departing. This meeting is not randomness, which is very different, it is chance. God is the Primary Efficient Cause. He can be, as well, what we call “chance”.

It would certainly seem that God wanted the good Sister and you to meet fortuitously.

There are those determinists that say that there is no such thing as pure chance. We simply have not thought the thing through sufficiently. It is my opinion that such people do not understand the proper definition of chance.

God bless,
jd