How does Marian devotion save?

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moondweller said:
Well, can you show me where my misguided Bible states: "4’At the command of Mary, all obey, even God.’
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Moon, we are not talking about your Book.

We have been talking about how you distort it because of your noninfallible, unauthoritative interpretations of it.

Think, Moon, think!
 
moondweller said:
Why put words in my mouth? Did I say Scripture is the foundation of ALL truth? Why go to extremes in your response? If you’re gong to respond then stay within the context of my post.There was no printing press during O.T. times and yet the people knew the Scriptures. Jesus Himself challenged them as to what was written in their Scriptures. You don’t need a printing press for God’s Word to be WRITTEN.Many people could read.2 Tim. 3:16. ALL Scripture is theopneustos (God-breathed). Cf. Matt. 21:42; 22:29; 26:54; 26:56; Mk. 14:49; Lk. 24:27, 45; Acts 17:2, 11; Acts 18:28; Rom. 1:1-2; 1 Cor. 15:3.But Scripture itself nowhere teaches that one must speak in tongues to be saved, baptized in Jesus’ name ONLY, or that men have no free will. In Scripture itself we’re told of false teachers that would rise up within the churches, and those who are believers and teach error will give an account at the judgment seat of Christ. Like Timothy, believers are to be diligent to present themselves approved to God, handling accurately the Word of truth (2 Tim. 2:15), and James warns (IN SCRIPTURE) that not many should become teachers for they incur a stricter judgment (Ja. 3:1). Men are never to form their own doctrines concerning the faith, but doctrines are to be formulated based on what is divinely revealed in Scripture - God’s Word. Nor are they to ADD doctrines to the faith, such as all your extrabiblical Marian doctrines.Of course. The prophets spoke orally to their generation. The gospel (good news message) of Jesus Christ was always orally preached (even as it is today). But what was preached and taught by the Apostles was subsequently written via the Holy Spirit by them and preserved for subsequent generations in theopneustos Scriptures. As Paul wrote to the Thessalonians: 2 Thess 2:5 "Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?"The church. But the church is not itself the Truth. Scripture, being the Word of God, however is the Truth. And keep in mind you asked me to answer you “according to the Scriptures.” See, even you appeal to their Divine authority. And “church” in that verse does not mean the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic church.You may test what I say by the Scriptures. And you have the right to reject what I say. That’s entirely up to you.I am not.I am not a Calvinist, I’m a Biblicist.I don’t claim any “authority.” The authority concerning the Christian faith resides in the Scriptures. There will always be false teachers during this church age; and believers who error in their teaching will give an account at the judgment seat of Christ. But that doesn’t leave YOU off the hook. You yourself follow the teachings of men and parrot their doctrines.We’re not told how Moses composed the Pentateuch, but, nevertheless, they held absolute authority in the Jewish community. Why? Because from the moment they were penned they were the written Word of God. Christ Himself appealed to them as authority.
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I was using Calvin as an example of the fruits of Sola Scriptura. Should have been more clear.

As for the Old Testament, because of what you said, do you believe that just anyone could pick up the text and determine their own doctrine? Did the Old Testament allow for Sola Scriptura and its fruit of using personal judgement to determine which doctrines to follow. Can you imagine if someone stood up in the crowd while Moses or some other Priest was teaching saying, …“Now wait just a minute, that’s not how I read the Law. You are wrong.” But yet, this is the fruit of Sola Scriptura. It is the means to allow you to use personal judgement to create / modify your own doctrine.

If you say TEST by Scriptures, tell me… are you infallible? What is your educational background? Can you infallibly say another Protestant Sect is wrong and you are right? If you can not answer this question, you need to leave personal judgement behind and join the Roman Catholic Church.

Where does it say, “The authority of the Christian Faith resides in Scripture”. YOU MUST find the EXACT verse for this. You said AUTHORITY, not me. Therefore, you MUST prove the Bible gives itself the authority you claim… If you can not find EXACT scripture giving that authority you are violating Sola Scriptura and thus in heresy against it.
OR, are you saying that authority can also reside outside of the Scripture? Or, does Scripture alone contain ALL AUTHORITY? Please clarify your view and provide supporting Scripture text.

How do you know that what you are teaching is not “false”?
  • Michael
 
Our Lady is as integral to God’s plan as Christ is to our salvation. As one poster mentioned, without Our Lady, where would Christ be.

As a woman, Our Lady holds special significance for me. When I pray the Rosary I pray to her so as to intercede on my behalf to Christ. I feel I am closer to Our Lord through his Mother, and it is her love which pulls me further to Christ.

It is inconceivable that Our Lady would wish to establish a circle of Catholics devoted to her single worship. She has only ever wished to see Our Lord venerated and loved.

If indeed there are Catholics who have a more loving devotion to Our Lady, than to Our Lord, it is through human misunderstanding of her Divine message.

As Our Lord’s Mother and our spiritual Mother, we should respect Our Lady and respect her position within the Church. I know for many women Our Lady is their only tangible proof that feminity is not sinful or wrong. She is God’s answer to our prayers that we are equal among men.

So to answer your question, yes Marian devotion does save, but only because God chose Our Lady to act as a conduit to Our Lord’s sacred heart.
 
crazzeto said:
Incidently Ron, I would warn you against exactly the kind of behaviour you seem to be undertaking right now. It’s exatly the error our protestant brothers and sisters make. That is, inventing your own theology based upon a verse or two of the bible, with out considering it with in it’s proper place in the whole of scripture, indeed with in the context of Authentic Apistolic tradition.

I ask you this sir, you levey the charge against the Church, that they purposefully modified the Teaching… Sir, have you read the Apistolic record? Have you read the writings of the actual Church fathers in order to know what exactly it is they died for?

I have this feeling, that you indeed would be supprised by the truth.
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The early fathers testified that the whole bible points to Christ.

rc.net/wcc/readings/fathers4.htm

"Irenaeus writes from the 2nd century:
“If one carefully reads the Scriptures, he will find there the word on the subject of Christ and the prefiguration of the new calling. He is indeed the hidden treasure in the field — the field in fact is the world — but in truth, the hidden treasure in the Scriptures is Christ. Because he is designed by types and words that humanly are not possible to understand before the accomplishment of all things, that is, Christ’s second coming.”

Origen writes from the 3rd century:
“[Christ’s words] are not only those which he spoke when he became a man and tabernacled in the flesh; for before that time, ***Christ, the Word of God, was in Moses and the prophets. …[their words] were filled with the Spirit of Christ.” ***

Hilary of Poitiers writes from the 4th century:
“Every part of Holy Writ announces through words the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, reveals it through facts and establishes it through examples. …***For it is our Lord who during all the present age, through true and manifest foreshadowings, generates, cleanses, sanctified, chooses, separates, or redeems the Church in the Patriarchs, through Adam’s slumber, Noah’s flood, Melchizedek’s blessing, Abraham’s justification, Isaac’s birth, and Jacob’s bondage.” ***

Augustine of Hippo writes from the 5th century:
“You recall that one and the same Word of God extends throughout Scripture, that it is one and the same Utterance that resounds in the mouths of all the sacred writers, since he who was in the beginning God with God has no need of separate syllables; for he is not subject to time."
"The Scriptures are in fact, in any passage you care to choose, singing of Christ, provided we have ears that are capable of picking out the tune. The Lord opened the minds of the Apostles so that they understood the Scriptures. That he will open our minds too is our prayer.”
 
You seem to be completely ignoring the entirty of Mary as the second eve, for openers alone:

newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm (this is about the IC which includes works from the fathers)

St Justin Martyer write:
“We know that He, before all creatures, proceeded from the Father by His power and will,…and by means of the Virgin became man, that by what way the disobedience arising from the serpent had its beginning, by that way also it might have an undoing. For Eve, being a virgin and undefiled, conceiving the word that was from the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death, but the Virgin Mary, taking faith and joy, when the Angel told her the good tidings, that the spirit of the Lord should come upon her and the power of the Highest overshadow her, and therefore the Holy One that was born of her was Son of God, answered ‘Be it to me according to Thy word.’”

Among many others, as pointed out by Cardinal Newman

books.google.com/books?id=pbJC5sFucY0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+second+eve&hl=en&ei=fqFETJakI4H58AbAvfWvDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

Your either or approch is in error, it’s not either all things point to Christ or Marian dogma has validity. It’s both and, all things point to Christ, and Marian dogma is true… Thus Marian dogma, like all things, points to Christ.
 
After following much of the conversation here… I just wanted to ask, if there was any intention on either side of coming to any resolution about this matter?
Will this only end in an agreement to disagree when we all think we are talking about truth? Truth can not be relative can it? I am not meaning to shoot down the conversation or divert from the topic at hand. But I couldn’t help but bring it up. And if we are all christians… then are we not also brothers and sisters in Christ?
 
jpink1019 said:
After following much of the conversation here… I just wanted to ask, if there was any intention on either side of coming to any resolution about this matter?
Will this only end in an agreement to disagree when we all think we are talking about truth? Truth can not be relative can it? I am not meaning to shoot down the conversation. But I couldn’t help but bring it up. And if we are all christians… then are we not also brothers and sisters in Christ?
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😃
Threads are only allowed 1000 posts, so I’m sure our Papal Ninja moderator will shut it down.
We could always do a sequel.
Ah…but its never as good as the original.
😃
 
moondweller said:
The Scriptures didn’t blind them. They were blind to the Scriptures because of their unbelief. Their “strict adherence” wasn’t to the Scriptures but to their extrabiblical traditions, for which Christ rebuked them. And so they sought to kill him.
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The scribes did believe in the scriptures,and they did not believe in Jesus because the scriptures did not tell them directly that Jesus was the messiah,even though the scriptures do testify to the coming of the messiah. The people who came to believe in Jesus while here was on earth did so on the evidence of the “authority” of his teaching and his miracles. It was only in hindsight that people could recognize Jesus as the messiah foretold in the scriptures.

The scribes did not have Jesus put to death on account of human traditions but because they thought he was a blasphemer and a false teacher.
 
JustaServant said:
😃
Threads are only allowed 1000 posts, so I’m sure our Papal Ninja moderator will shut it down.
We could always do a sequel.
Ah…but its never as good as the original.
😃
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I am only concerned because I see on both sides strong… conviction about what scripture has to say. But as i said before I don’t think this topic can be objective.
If another “sequel thread” was to be made what would be the reason for why people continued to reply… If only to argue? 😦
it is a fair question to ask. Especially if more or less everyone here is interested in finding truth.
 
ron77nyc said:
The gospel never changes but the role of Mary changes from time to time. This is what the Church used to teach which explains why some say Catholics worship Mary.
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Yes, as a Catholic we understand that doctrine develops, Ron.

Just like the dogma of the Trinity was not fully developed until later. God chose to reveal that dogma to the Church, not to the 1st century Chrsitians.
 
jpink1019 said:
I am only concerned because I see on both sides strong… conviction about what scripture has to say. But as i said before I don’t think this topic can be objective.
If another “sequel thread” was to be made what would be the reason for why people continued to reply… If only to argue? 😦
it is a fair question to ask. Especially if more or less everyone here is interested in finding truth.
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I’ll try to answer before the credits roll.😉
First, let me say that I myself spent 20 years across the Tiber and never understood the Protestant obsession with this topic, as if it is the only thing Catholics beleive in. Even as a Baptist minister I would often correct people who would say Catholics worship Mary because, growing up Catholic, I knew better. So, when I returned to the Church, Marian doctrine was not an issue for me because I knew what Catholics truly believed.
I will also say that there is an element of distrust as well. Some simply do not believe we are being truthful. Others believe we are truthful, but are ‘blinded’ to the ‘truth’ as they see it.
The result is a 1000 post thread with no resolution.
But for those lurkers who truly want to learn and have questions, it has a resolution because their questions were answered.
People learn by asking question, not making pronouncements on things they know nothing about.
To those people, I’m sure this thread has been helpful.
 
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