How does marriage change intimacy

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anon91549587 said:
A single man who has pre marital sex with his girlfriend does not love her but does so from lust. Does this mean that it is impossible to have sex out of love before marriage?
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No, it’s possible to have sex before marriage with a deep feeling of love and commitment to the person. In other words, you’re not just motivated by lust. However, it’s still wrong and sinful and therefore ultimately not a loving act, including not loving towards all of humanity, if that makes any sense.

It’s very hard for people to understand that something they intend as a genuine and seemingly natural expression of love for another human may actually be a bad thing for both of you (and for others you don’t even know, considering the effect of sin on the whole world). “We love each other, how can love ever be bad?” I’ve personally struggled with the concept so I know it’s hard. It’s much easier for people to claim that all sex outside marriage is just perverted lust or demonic temptation or whatnot, but that doesn’t ring true for many people.

God challenges us that while we might feel great love for an “unavailable” person, often the best and highest expression of that love is refraining from following our natural urge. It’s sort of like when Humphrey Bogart puts Ingrid Bergman on the plane out of Casablanca rather than doing what he would really like to do and keeping her with him.
This leads me to a second question, does the sacrament of marriage give the man a “new emotional capability” to have sex out of love after the ceremony in church is made?
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I would hope that people who are committing to a lifelong marital relationship whereby they understand that they’re expected to stay married even if one or both of them become sexually less desirable, or lose the capacity to have sex, are not going to be having sex with each other out of sheer lust. If people are going to make that kind of commitment then their relationship has hopefully evolved beyond that sort of thing. Otherwise they will be in big trouble when lust flies out the window temporarily or even permanently.
 
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Indeed, for the sake of both the woman and even moreso for the sake of the child, the commitment of the father is a must. As strong as women can be, having a child to care for gives her a certain vulnerability due to the real vulnerability of her children.

Here’s a great read that speaks to this issue…

life-craft.org

A Woman's Courage in Childbearing - LifeCraft

“the courage… of a man and of a woman, are not…the same.” Aristotle, Politics Not many nights ago, my wife shared something remarkable with me. Here is basically what she said: In battle, or other such dramatic circumstances, a man might face the possibility of death, the separation of his body...
life-craft.org life-craft.org
 
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My paternal grandfather (a Belarussian) was detained by the Bolshevik authorities soon after ww2, allegedly because his brother was a priest. He left prison after 3 years or so, but was so traumatized he became an alcoholic. He was not committed to my grandmother or my father, only to his vodka mates. Throughout my dad’s life, I always sensed the wounds caused by lack of an active father during his childhood.
 
BlueKumul said:
Throughout my dad’s life, I always sensed the wounds caused by lack of an active father during his childhood.
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Yeah. Those wounds are life-long. I feel bad for your grandfather’s trauma too. So many people affected by the evil done to one person like ripples in a pond.
 
You can live a person you are not married to and you can have sec with them. However that act would not be an act of love. So the argument “but we are in love but not married” is not valid. Sex outside of marriage cannot be an act of love.
 
Rau said:
Because…?
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Because the life-long commitment made in the Sacrament of Matrimony hasn’t been made. How is it loving (not talking about “feeling” loving) to fornicate and commit a mortal sin and risk that a child will be born outside the bond of marriage?

Maybe you can explain how it can be an act of love when these other factors are present?
Rau said:
Would you also assert that sex inside marriage is always an act of love?
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There can be bad situations in marriage in which sex doesn’t occur in the context of being a loving act. However, the marriage bond provides the only situation in which sex has the potential to be a truly loving act.
 
Elizabeth3 said:
Because the life-long commitment made in the Sacrament of Matrimony hasn’t been made.
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For many people, the notion of “sacrament” is null. They may not even know the word. The same may apply to the notion of the sin you mention. A couple may be committed despite the lack of the formal and public commitment called marriage.

I think it is a mistake to assume that our catholic perspective is always the right lens through which to see, and judge, the actions of others.
 
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Rau said:
For many people, the notion of “sacrament” is null.
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This thread is in the context of the OP’s question.
anon91549587 said:
does the sacrament of marriage give the man a “new emotional capability” to have sex out of love after the ceremony in church is made?
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I don’t really see the need to discuss whether sex outside the Sacrament by non-Christians can be loving in relation to the poster’s question. It’s a mute point for the Christian. But I also happen to think the Church is right, in light of the fact that sex has the potential to produce a child, it can only truly be an expression of love in the context of a lifelong commitment. (If not a Christian marriage then at least a natural marriage.) Even those outside the Church can use reason to see that truth. The fact that many don’t use reason or use reason from a faulty formation of conscience doesn’t change that fundamental reality.
 
Not always true. I mean if you view it as sinful then maybe it can’t be love because you are leading the other into sin, but for someone who sees nothing immoral about sex even outside of marriage, they can have loving sex Also, I’m sure not all sex within marriage is devoid of selfishness. I mean is it even possible for it to not be selfish if you want it? Like there is definitely pleasure and a desire for it when someone wants sex even with their spouse
 
His second question referring to the Sacrament indicates the first question is from a Catholic perspective (or at least Christian). If we know that we commit a mortal sin when we have sex outside marriage, then that means it’s not a loving act. Not sure how any act that is a mortal sin in which you lose your salvation can be considered loving.
 
Elizabeth3 said:
If we know that we commit a mortal sin when we have sex outside marriage, then that means it’s not a loving act. Not sure how any act that is a mortal sin in which you lose your salvation can be considered loving.
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I explicitly placed my response in the context of persons for whom sacrament and mortal sin are not part of their thinking.
Elizabeth3 said:
His second question referring to the Sacrament indicates the first question is from a Catholic perspective (or at least Christian).
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Reality is that not all persons having sex are Catholic or Christian. The question did not limit consideration to catholic actors.
 
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anon91549587 said:
Hello friends, from how i was raised. A single man who has pre marital sex with his girlfriend does not love her but does so from lust. Does this mean that it is impossible to have sex out of love before marriage?
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There are different levels of love, from eros (the lustful “love”) to agape (total self-giving love). Marriage requires agape. And for those who say “but we love each other” to justify their sin, isn’t that the same thing people use to justify homosexual sexual relations? Some forms of “love” are “illegal” in the eyes of God.
anon91549587 said:
This leads me to a second question, does the sacrament of marriage give the man a “new emotional capability” to have sex out of love after the ceremony in church is made?
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Well, the correct term is that the sacrament confers grace. I hope that helps.
 
Rau said:
Reality is that not all persons having sex are Catholic or Christian. The question did not limit consideration to catholic actors.
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It didn’t limit it explicitly but usually when a question refers to something in the context of a Sacrament, it’s implied that it’s limited to that context. What benefit is it to a Christian to point out that if one isn’t Christian, sex outside of marriage could be considered loving? You can certainly bring up the point but I guess I’m having trouble seeing how it could be helpful to the OP.
 
Elizabeth3 said:
You can certainly bring up the point but I guess I’m having trouble seeing how it could be helpful to the OP.
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The thread responses are not read by merely the OP, nor merely through his eyes.
 
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Shouldn’t we call these illegal kinds of “love” something else, like lust. Secular society doesn’t like the word lust, they prefer to call it attraction cos it sounds nicer.
 
anon91549587 said:
Hello friends, from how i was raised. A single man who has pre marital sex with his girlfriend does not love her but does so from lust. Does this mean that it is impossible to have sex out of love before marriage?
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Try thinking of it in this way. It’s estimated that 80% - 90% of all human communication is non-verbal. In other words, we speak with our bodies (I can attest to this on a very personal level as my eldest daughter is totally non-verbal and can only communicate through gestures, facial expressions, postures, and actions). If it’s possible to speak with our bodies, it’s also possible to lie with our bodies.

Now. Look at what a man and woman are saying to one another through sexual intercourse. "I give myself freely and totally to you. But how can they make that total gift of themselves (which includes their past, their present, and their future), when they haven’t first made that public gift of themselves through their wedding vows. In other words, when a man and woman who aren’t married engage in actions that are proper only within marriage (i.e. sexual intercourse), they are lying to one another through their bodies.
anon91549587 said:
This leads me to a second question, does the sacrament of marriage give the man a “new emotional capability” to have sex out of love after the ceremony in church is made?
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the Sacrament of Marriage doesn’t give man a “new emotional capability” to have sex without the possibility of lust. Reception of the Sacrament of Marriage is not an end in itself. Truly, it’s the beginning of intense spiritual combat, particularly the struggles that take place “in the heart.”

I recommend prayerfully reading through Pope St. John Paul II’s Theology of the Body, or Christopher West’s Theology of the Body for Beginners. You’ll find a lot of answer there.
 
i dont have a clue what you are saying… a man has to have sexual excitement to perform intercourse…sanctifying grace??? charity??? what do you mean? sheer nonsense,what are you thinking??..i feel sorry for your wife,
 
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