Z
ZackMartin
Guest
Hi
My question is about the moral status of sex outside of marriage, and whether a putative marriage is recognised under state law or Church law is relevant to that question. Let’s make the focus of discussion people who aren’t Catholic, and what is or is not a sin for them to do sexually (since more strenuous requirements might be imposed on those who are.) One might see this as a question about natural law.
So, the Catholic Church teaches that sex prior to marriage is sinful, and I take it that it teaches this to be true, not just for Catholics, but for people of all religions and none. (So an atheist who has sex before marriage is in the Catholic Church’s view sinning, while a married atheist who has sex with their husband/wife is not in the Catholic Church’s view sinning, apart from whatever other sins they might be committing as an atheist.)
The question then is - what counts as marriage? Is the canon law of the Catholic church determinative here? I would have thought that the canon law might impose requirements that go beyond the natural law, that would thus be morally binding on Catholics but not non-Catholics? Would there be some marriages, which while invalid by canon law, nonetheless would be valid by divine law? An example might be a marriage of persons related in the third or fourth degree collaterally (i.e. uncle-niece/son-aunt and first cousin marriages) - those are invalid under canon law unless permitted by the local ordinary. But a non-Catholic would not have a “local ordinary” to give them a dispensation - if two atheists, a man and a woman, who are first cousins, and then get married, in a jurisdiction in which first cousin marriage is legal, and then have sex, have they sinned? Would the Catholic church recognise their marriage, given that as non-Catholics they would never have asked their local Catholic Bishop for permission to marry?
Do people have to get legally married to be counted as married under natural law or divine law? Suppose two people declare “We are married”, and start living together and engaging in sexual relations, but never get legally married (whether under the Church’s law or secular law) - are their sexual relations sinful? It would seem that marriage under secular law is not necessary to be married under divine law, given that canon 1071.1.2 says that a marriage may occur in the Catholic church unrecognised by or contrary to secular law, provided it has the local ordinary’s approval. But that only applies to Catholics (non-Catholics would not have an ordinary of which to seek the approval) - suppose Jack and Jill both belong to Pastor Fred’s Church, which teaches that the government is evil, that it is sinful to contract a legally recognised marriage, so they go to Pastor Fred, and Pastor Fred declares them married, and they start living together. Now let’s take it that Pastor Fred is teaching falsehoods, and maybe even he is sinning in so doing, but suppose that Jack and Jill are innocently believing the religious beliefs their parents raised them in, and have no reason to think that Pastor Fred’s teachings are wrong. If Jack and Jill then have sex, have they sinned? Is their marriage valid in the eyes of the Catholic Church? Valid in the eyes of God? It would not be valid in the eyes of most country’s legal systems.
What about common law marriage, which I read is legal in 10 US states and in DC - i.e. two people start living together, they hold themselves out to be married, and by doing so they legally become married? Is such a marriage valid in the eyes of God? in the eyes of the church? under natural law? If two people have a common law marriage, do they sin by having sex? What about two people, who read about common law marriage, and decide they have one, but they don’t happen to live in a jurisdiction which legally recognises the concept - does whether the jurisdiction in which they live recognises the concept have moral significance? Is there a moral difference between “common law marriage”, v.s. the Australian concept of “de facto”, or the French concept of “pacte civil de solidarité” (PACS)? - Legally, they have much of the rights and privileges of marriage, and in the Australian case (but not the French case) are established similarly to common law marriage, but both are not legally considered the same as a marriage. (I am talking here about only heterosexual relationships, not homosexual ones.)
On a practical level, the concept of “common law marriage” seems to exist even where not recognised. A co-worker of mine has been with his current partner for over 20 years, and has two children with her. He habitually calls her “my wife”, even though they are not legally married.
Thanks
Zack
My question is about the moral status of sex outside of marriage, and whether a putative marriage is recognised under state law or Church law is relevant to that question. Let’s make the focus of discussion people who aren’t Catholic, and what is or is not a sin for them to do sexually (since more strenuous requirements might be imposed on those who are.) One might see this as a question about natural law.
So, the Catholic Church teaches that sex prior to marriage is sinful, and I take it that it teaches this to be true, not just for Catholics, but for people of all religions and none. (So an atheist who has sex before marriage is in the Catholic Church’s view sinning, while a married atheist who has sex with their husband/wife is not in the Catholic Church’s view sinning, apart from whatever other sins they might be committing as an atheist.)
The question then is - what counts as marriage? Is the canon law of the Catholic church determinative here? I would have thought that the canon law might impose requirements that go beyond the natural law, that would thus be morally binding on Catholics but not non-Catholics? Would there be some marriages, which while invalid by canon law, nonetheless would be valid by divine law? An example might be a marriage of persons related in the third or fourth degree collaterally (i.e. uncle-niece/son-aunt and first cousin marriages) - those are invalid under canon law unless permitted by the local ordinary. But a non-Catholic would not have a “local ordinary” to give them a dispensation - if two atheists, a man and a woman, who are first cousins, and then get married, in a jurisdiction in which first cousin marriage is legal, and then have sex, have they sinned? Would the Catholic church recognise their marriage, given that as non-Catholics they would never have asked their local Catholic Bishop for permission to marry?
Do people have to get legally married to be counted as married under natural law or divine law? Suppose two people declare “We are married”, and start living together and engaging in sexual relations, but never get legally married (whether under the Church’s law or secular law) - are their sexual relations sinful? It would seem that marriage under secular law is not necessary to be married under divine law, given that canon 1071.1.2 says that a marriage may occur in the Catholic church unrecognised by or contrary to secular law, provided it has the local ordinary’s approval. But that only applies to Catholics (non-Catholics would not have an ordinary of which to seek the approval) - suppose Jack and Jill both belong to Pastor Fred’s Church, which teaches that the government is evil, that it is sinful to contract a legally recognised marriage, so they go to Pastor Fred, and Pastor Fred declares them married, and they start living together. Now let’s take it that Pastor Fred is teaching falsehoods, and maybe even he is sinning in so doing, but suppose that Jack and Jill are innocently believing the religious beliefs their parents raised them in, and have no reason to think that Pastor Fred’s teachings are wrong. If Jack and Jill then have sex, have they sinned? Is their marriage valid in the eyes of the Catholic Church? Valid in the eyes of God? It would not be valid in the eyes of most country’s legal systems.
What about common law marriage, which I read is legal in 10 US states and in DC - i.e. two people start living together, they hold themselves out to be married, and by doing so they legally become married? Is such a marriage valid in the eyes of God? in the eyes of the church? under natural law? If two people have a common law marriage, do they sin by having sex? What about two people, who read about common law marriage, and decide they have one, but they don’t happen to live in a jurisdiction which legally recognises the concept - does whether the jurisdiction in which they live recognises the concept have moral significance? Is there a moral difference between “common law marriage”, v.s. the Australian concept of “de facto”, or the French concept of “pacte civil de solidarité” (PACS)? - Legally, they have much of the rights and privileges of marriage, and in the Australian case (but not the French case) are established similarly to common law marriage, but both are not legally considered the same as a marriage. (I am talking here about only heterosexual relationships, not homosexual ones.)
On a practical level, the concept of “common law marriage” seems to exist even where not recognised. A co-worker of mine has been with his current partner for over 20 years, and has two children with her. He habitually calls her “my wife”, even though they are not legally married.
Thanks
Zack