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Th0t
Guest
Come from humans? “Morality is a product of evolution.” ~ unknown
can i get a catholic defense please?
can i get a catholic defense please?
- Status
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Robert_Sock
Guest
Morality is like a spiral where the ego matures due to its struggle between the id and superego. This does not preclude religion by any means.
God Bless.
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
I think the big things like murdering and hurting others are pretty basic in all cultures as being wrong, with or without religion.
However, I think most people would behave in a way such that if they could get away with doing something wrong, they would, if they didn’t have religion. For example, taking something that wasn’t yours, having casual sex, not doing one’s fair share, etc. Most people who don’t have religion, need to have societal restraints and punishments, so that they don’t do wrong things, in the fear of getting caught and punished.
Religion gives us the idea that God is watching your every move, what is in the dark will be brought to light. Therefore we get the concept of sin and forgiveness. You can’t “get away” with sins if you believe in God.
However, I think most people would behave in a way such that if they could get away with doing something wrong, they would, if they didn’t have religion. For example, taking something that wasn’t yours, having casual sex, not doing one’s fair share, etc. Most people who don’t have religion, need to have societal restraints and punishments, so that they don’t do wrong things, in the fear of getting caught and punished.
Religion gives us the idea that God is watching your every move, what is in the dark will be brought to light. Therefore we get the concept of sin and forgiveness. You can’t “get away” with sins if you believe in God.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
The superego is a metaphor for God and the id is a metaphor for Satan.
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
nice analogy - I like it!
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morgantj
Guest
What is there to defend? both are correct.
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ricmat
Guest
This all depends on what you mean by morality.
Morality that comes from humans is relative. There is no single “correct” morality because humans think differently from each another.
Morality that comes from God is the real thing. It is absolute. It is correct. The sin of Adam and Eve (tree of the knowledge of good and evil) was their attempt to define for themselves what was good and what was evil, when only God can decide what is good and evil. A good book on this subject is “50 Questions on the Natural Law” by Dr. Charles Rice.
“Morality is a product of evolution” - pure bunk. Nature alone does not determine good and evil. Morality ties into the concept of free will, and alone in nature, mankind has free will.
IMHO.
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morgantj
Guest
Come on, this is not biological evolution being talked about here, but evolution as defined as development: a process in which something passes degrees of different stages, matures, a process of gradual change. Yes, modern morality is not the same as the morality of ancient times, because it has evolved. For example, most countries don’t find burning witches as morally acceptable anymore. The bible says it is acceptable, “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” if morality that comes from God is the real thing. It is absolute. It is correct then why don’t we follow through with burning witches today?
Morals are created by society, philosophy, individual conscience, etc… and religion just attempts to “resell” these values as their own and goes so far as to say these values come from a “higher authority.” They do this in a attempt to make these moral values “seem” objective instead of man-made subjective values.
Theist pick and choose what to believe is right and good in the bible according to the moral values of modern times. The moral compass they use to pick and choose what to adhere to in the bible and what not to did not come from the bible they are pondering.
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centurionguard
Guest
First and foremost Catholic Christian Morality and it’s very life (“is”) an adherence to neither a doctrinal system nor to a humanistic ethical code. It is a matter of abiding to and within the spiritual mystery Christ the Only Begotten Son of God the Father. It is accomplished through the rightful form of living in the indistinguishable sacrificial steps and life of Jesus Christ. ("If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in His love…(“This is my commandment: Love one another as I have loved you”). John 15:10-12. By making Christ’s attitudes our own (Philippians 2:5). We imitate Christ (John 13:15) “We put on the Lord Jesus Christ”. Romans 13:14). We share in the living reality that is Christ not only by external association but by an interior transformation. We are united with Jesus Christ like branches on a vine. (John 15:1-5).
Our imitating Christ with (“Total”) “self-surrender” to the will of the Father.
(Hebrews 10: 7-10) leads to a mystical identity with Christ himself so that we can say with Saint Paul in an echoing voice that (“yet I live, no longer I, but Christ lives in me”) Galations 2: 20. Only by following Jesus in his passover through the mortification and death of our human iniquity to the full life in Christ Jesus sacrificial example can we come to the heavenly Father and share in the very life of the Holy Trinity. For it is through obedience to God’s will in imitation of the Father’s Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ that the fullness of the Holy Spirit is given to us. (“Acts 5:32”) (“CHRIST IS”) thus “our” (“Supreme Law”), (“not as a set of external norms for us”), but ("because, it is Jesus who gives us the “inner capacity” to "transform our human lives in conformity with the Father’s will for us. As Pope John Paul II writes in his encyclical “Veritatis Splendor”
(“Jesus Himself Is The Living (“Fulfillment”) Of The Law”)…Law/Morality…inasmuch as He fulfills its authentic meaning by the total (“sacrificial”) gift of Himself. It is Jesus himself who becomes a living and personal Law. And it is Jesus our Savior who invites people, us, to follow Him; through the Spirit he gives the grace to share His own life and love and provides the graced strength to bear witness to that love in the personal choices and actions we make. (John 13:34-35).
Our imitating Christ with (“Total”) “self-surrender” to the will of the Father.
(Hebrews 10: 7-10) leads to a mystical identity with Christ himself so that we can say with Saint Paul in an echoing voice that (“yet I live, no longer I, but Christ lives in me”) Galations 2: 20. Only by following Jesus in his passover through the mortification and death of our human iniquity to the full life in Christ Jesus sacrificial example can we come to the heavenly Father and share in the very life of the Holy Trinity. For it is through obedience to God’s will in imitation of the Father’s Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ that the fullness of the Holy Spirit is given to us. (“Acts 5:32”) (“CHRIST IS”) thus “our” (“Supreme Law”), (“not as a set of external norms for us”), but ("because, it is Jesus who gives us the “inner capacity” to "transform our human lives in conformity with the Father’s will for us. As Pope John Paul II writes in his encyclical “Veritatis Splendor”
(“Jesus Himself Is The Living (“Fulfillment”) Of The Law”)…Law/Morality…inasmuch as He fulfills its authentic meaning by the total (“sacrificial”) gift of Himself. It is Jesus himself who becomes a living and personal Law. And it is Jesus our Savior who invites people, us, to follow Him; through the Spirit he gives the grace to share His own life and love and provides the graced strength to bear witness to that love in the personal choices and actions we make. (John 13:34-35).
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Shike
Guest
Good question as to why we don’t burn witches! This comes from a misunderstanding of what is part of the Mosaic law (strict sense) and what is part of Natural law as well as interpretation. The Jews of the Old Testament are wrote about in such a way as to show them as a people set apart. The Mosaic law passing away doesn’t say anything about the moral wrongness of being a sorceress (my translation). In fact, it is still wrong. But what you do to express the wrongness has changed.
That’s silly. Philosophy has come up with many many different systems of morals, but the major religions have always harped on the same thing, ie. sacrificial love. Even if we assume your position that all religions are man-made, it doesn’t follow that morals are totally subjective; in fact, it’s much more plausible that there is such a thing as an objective natural law that religions have discovered to come to the same conclusion. There is overwhelming support for a natural law; a little reflection on the fact that we are made a certain way can bring you close to this conclusion. Read Kant and how he tries to pick apart the mind.
I’m so glad that Catholic teaching doesn’t pick and choose its morals from the bible, though some individuals regrettably pick and choose what to follow.
I definitely agree. The bible, strictly speaking, didn’t create them with an imbibed natural law. And I also agree it’s silly to pick and choose. Good point!
ciao fratello!
~ Michael
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
Morganti
The bible says it is acceptable, “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” if morality that comes from God is the real thing. It is absolute. It is correct then why don’t we follow through with burning witches today?
We don’t burn witches today because they are a joke. In ancient times they were not a joke. the Hebrew word Chasaph is the word that has come to be translated as witch or sorceress. But Chasaph in the ancient texts was also translated by Josephus as poisoner. In the ancient world witches were feared as poisoners, not as jokes. Even to this day the folklore of witchcraft emphasizes the magical power of certain potions to produce this or that effect. In the ancient word this or that could as well be poisoned to death. Witches ( in Exodus proven to be poisoners) were subject to the death penalty as a way of protecting the Jews from their evil designs. Witches today might be subject to the same penalty if they were proven to be homicidal poisoners. Fortunately, most witchcraft today is practiced mostly by harmless loonies.
The bible says it is acceptable, “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” if morality that comes from God is the real thing. It is absolute. It is correct then why don’t we follow through with burning witches today?
We don’t burn witches today because they are a joke. In ancient times they were not a joke. the Hebrew word Chasaph is the word that has come to be translated as witch or sorceress. But Chasaph in the ancient texts was also translated by Josephus as poisoner. In the ancient world witches were feared as poisoners, not as jokes. Even to this day the folklore of witchcraft emphasizes the magical power of certain potions to produce this or that effect. In the ancient word this or that could as well be poisoned to death. Witches ( in Exodus proven to be poisoners) were subject to the death penalty as a way of protecting the Jews from their evil designs. Witches today might be subject to the same penalty if they were proven to be homicidal poisoners. Fortunately, most witchcraft today is practiced mostly by harmless loonies.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Which is one of the reasons given for theism in antiquity: to control people 
It depends on the religion. And it implies that religion is always ethically concerned. It would fit the Semitic religions, but not Roman religion. Roman religion was concerned - in its public expression - with the pax deorum, with “keeping the gods on-side”. This involved addressing prayers to the correct deity, offering animals in precisely the correct manner, observing taboos, & so forth - it did not have moral content; that came from philosophy. IOW, it was intensely concerned with validity - not with inward dispositions, let alone right belief.
Yet Rome was famous for its piety. Cicero (106-43 BC) got his morals from his philosophy, not from any of the gods, nor from his duties as one of the augurs; let alone from the god of the Jews. Nowhere in his dialogue “On the Nature of the Gods” is there any hint that without god or gods, morality would topple. This is all the more significant because the first of the three speakers is an Epicurean, who rubbishes the predecessors of Epicurus, and Zeno the rival of Epicurus who founded the Stoa. The lion’s share of the three-book dialogue is given to the Stoic speaker (who rubbishes Epicurus) & closes with book three, which is incompletely preserved but includes many criticisms of the Stoic’s arguments. The atheist Diagoras of Melos is mentioned several times, but there is no criticism of his morals. OTOH, there are many criticisms of the Stoic doctrine of Providence, because of the impunity enjoyed by certain men such as the tyrant Dionysius of Syracuse, & because of the evils suffered by men of high character. The notion that God cares for men is fairly thoroughly trashed, because of the many counter-evidences. The polytheistic cultures were not excluded by their polytheism from believing that men might be favoured or punished by gods - what gave rise to doubts of Divine care was not polytheism, but the experience of seeing that the evil might very well prosper, and the devout might very well suffer for no clear reason at all.IMO, Christianity is vulnerable to this last criticism, because it requires faith - but faith often disappoints; this problem is aggravated by the fact that there are Christians who question the faith of other Christians, especially when the two belong to different churches. The trouble is, that for all the promises of Divine protection in the Bible or encouraged by confidence fed by previous experience, Christians are as likely to come to a horrible end as anyone else. Far too often, the doctrinal & Biblical descriptions of God fail miserably to fit the realities of life as people live it: Robert Mugabe is at ease in his presidential palace, while thousands starve or are beaten or tortured for opposing him. That, despite all the theology to the contrary, is some of the reality of life in Zimbabwe.
BTW, if one’s religion is of a sort that allows bargaining with God or the gods, it is possible to get away with one’s misdeeds. The impieties of Dionysius of Syracuse are given in some detail in Book Three - he died in his bed despite them.
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
Well I was talking about Christianity. I don’t think Christians bargain with God. Although, true repentance is necessary for the forgiveness of sin. If you fake that, nothing’s going to happen.Which is one of the reasons given for theism in antiquity: to control people
It depends on the religion. And it implies that religion is always ethically concerned. It would fit the Semitic religions, but not Roman religion. Roman religion was concerned - in its public expression - with the pax deorum, with “keeping the gods on-side”. This involved addressing prayers to the correct deity, offering animals in precisely the correct manner, observing taboos, & so forth - it did not have moral content; that came from philosophy. IOW, it was intensely concerned with validity - not with inward dispositions, let alone right belief.
Yet Rome was famous for its piety. Cicero (106-43 BC) got his morals from his philosophy, not from any of the gods, nor from his duties as one of the augurs; let alone from the god of the Jews. Nowhere in his dialogue “On the Nature of the Gods” is there any hint that without god or gods, morality would topple. This is all the more significant because the first of the three speakers is an Epicurean, who rubbishes the predecessors of Epicurus, and Zeno the rival of Epicurus who founded the Stoa. The lion’s share of the three-book dialogue is given to the Stoic speaker (who rubbishes Epicurus) & closes with book three, which is incompletely preserved but includes many criticisms of the Stoic’s arguments. The atheist Diagoras of Melos is mentioned several times, but there is no criticism of his morals. OTOH, there are many criticisms of the Stoic doctrine of Providence, because of the impunity enjoyed by certain men such as the tyrant Dionysius of Syracuse, & because of the evils suffered by men of high character. The notion that God cares for men is fairly thoroughly trashed, because of the many counter-evidences. The polytheistic cultures were not excluded by their polytheism from believing that men might be favoured or punished by gods - what gave rise to doubts of Divine care was not polytheism, but the experience of seeing that the evil might very well prosper, and the devout might very well suffer for no clear reason at all.
IMO, Christianity is vulnerable to this last criticism, because it requires faith - but faith often disappoints; this problem is aggravated by the fact that there are Christians who question the faith of other Christians, especially when the two belong to different churches. The trouble is, that for all the promises of Divine protection in the Bible or encouraged by confidence fed by previous experience, Christians are as likely to come to a horrible end as anyone else. Far too often, the doctrinal & Biblical descriptions of God fail miserably to fit the realities of life as people live it: Robert Mugabe is at ease in his presidential palace, while thousands starve or are beaten or tortured for opposing him. That, despite all the theology to the contrary, is some of the reality of life in Zimbabwe.
BTW, if one’s religion is of a sort that allows bargaining with God or the gods, it is possible to get away with one’s misdeeds. The impieties of Dionysius of Syracuse are given in some detail in Book Three - he died in his bed despite them.
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
CHRISTINE
Well I was talking about Christianity. I don’t think Christians bargain with God. Although, true repentance is necessary for the forgiveness of sin. If you fake that, nothing’s going to happen.
I think Christians do bargain with God. I offered to give the Church half my lottery winnings if God would let me win the jackpot. No jackpot. Maybe God doesn’t bargain with Christians?
Well I was talking about Christianity. I don’t think Christians bargain with God. Although, true repentance is necessary for the forgiveness of sin. If you fake that, nothing’s going to happen.
I think Christians do bargain with God. I offered to give the Church half my lottery winnings if God would let me win the jackpot. No jackpot. Maybe God doesn’t bargain with Christians?
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
That’s correct. Actually, people ask for God’s mercy all the time, and He freely gives it. But I don’t think all Christians “bargain” with God. That may be a personal problem.
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jmkm
Guest
How Does Morality?
Come from humans? “Morality is a product of evolution.” ~ unknown
Does morality come from humans?
Yes. It’s called “Natual Law.” We are all born with it in our hearts. With or without religion all humans know right from wrong (unless it is distorted by a mental disease).
But where do humans come from?
We were created in the image of God. So God provided us with the knowledge of right and wrong, so we could be more like Him. (Not good and evil, right and wrong. Eve knew it was wrong to take the fruit even though she has no concept of evil.)
**
Is it a product of evolution?
The superego is a metaphor for God and the id is a metaphor for Satan.
I totally disagree with this.
The id is the manefestations of our animal nature, the superego is our spiritual nature.
Bios vs. Zoe
Come from humans? “Morality is a product of evolution.” ~ unknown
Does morality come from humans?
Yes. It’s called “Natual Law.” We are all born with it in our hearts. With or without religion all humans know right from wrong (unless it is distorted by a mental disease).
But where do humans come from?
We were created in the image of God. So God provided us with the knowledge of right and wrong, so we could be more like Him. (Not good and evil, right and wrong. Eve knew it was wrong to take the fruit even though she has no concept of evil.)
**
Is it a product of evolution?
I don’t know enough about evolution theory to answer that.
The superego is a metaphor for God and the id is a metaphor for Satan.I totally disagree with this.
The id is the manefestations of our animal nature, the superego is our spiritual nature.
Bios vs. Zoe
J
JDaniel
Guest
Go to Amazon.com com and buy the book, Right and Reason, by Austin Fagothey, S.J. It’s less than 500 pages, but, it covers it all far better than some small piece of it you’ll get on this thread. You really need it all, really.
IMHO
jd
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Henry_Green
Guest
I am not a Catholic but morality is adherence to a code of conduct.Only those who adapt the code of the Almighty have morality. The atheist can choose to mirror the Christian or the Jewish moral code but has no right to say he is therefore moral I certainly appreciate them acting moral but to be moral is only possible with subservience to God . Not only is he/she being logically inconsistent but has no one to answer to if he/she chooses to forgo mirroring Christian morals without notice. Situational ethics and relative morality are amorality. All the atheist has is his opinion and it is of no more worth than any other humans opinion. If atheism is true then evolution is true we are animals and it is no less moral to kill another human being and eat him than a to slaughter a chicken for the purpose.
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The fact you ask the question is prima facie evidence you already know this.
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mary73
Guest
EXCELLENT explanation Centurioguard. I couldn’t have said it any better myself. To enfold onesself in Gods love one must first perform an act of love and charity for another. Teaching lay persons God’s word is the biggest and best form of love that one can perform.
Mary:thumbsup:
Mary:thumbsup:
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PJM
Guest
Morality is not tied to evolution except in perhaps popular belief.
Catholic Moral principle and teachings are Objective TRUTH, not Subjective preference!
Logic confirms that on any specific issue their can only be One truth, ot their would exist “no truth.”
The Only Church, only religion actually founded directly bu God Himself is His Catholic Church. Therefore this very same Catholic Church is the respository, the seat, and the dispenser of The Single Objective Truth on ALL issues of Morals and Faith. What was true 2000 years ago, is not less true today.
Understanding of truth can change, truth can be denined, rejected, but not altered.
And this my friend is the Catholic Teaching on the issue of Moral Truth:tiphat:
Love and prayers from an informed and practicing Roman Catholic,
- Status