I am really not sure of this specific person’s beliefs concerning the issue. I think I remember who said this but I cannot remember for certain so I can’t really ask them. That said, it would seem that this person believes that we have existed from all eternity.You are, of course, correct. The Church teaches that a new soul is created when a new human is created (at conception).
To set this guy straight, you need to know more about his belief. Why does he believe this? Maybe he got hold of a Bible verse that he is misreading. Maybe he read some kook’s writings, and the kook can be easily discredited.
Also, when does this guy think our souls were created (if not at conception)? They cannot be eternal - only God is eternal (and, besides, God made our souls - more reason we can’t be co-eternal with God).
There’s also the question of where our souls would have been (“where” is a spatial concept, but I have to work within our limited understanding and vocabulary). They would probably have not been in heaven, with Beatific vision of God (theologians say that even the angels, when first created, were denied the Beatific vision, because if they experienced it, their free will would have been overwhelmed, and none of them would have rebelled).
Then this person believes that souls were not created by God, but have always existed along with God. If God did not create our souls, then he has very little reason to stand in judgement of them, or impose any sort of Law or morality upon them. What makes God special in this universe? He is just one of billions of co-eternal souls. How did he get to be “God?” Is it an accident of “birth” (like a person born into a rich family?).That said, it would seem that this person believes that we have existed from all eternity.
This is a very old heresy called “Origenism”. Like, about 1400 years old. St. Maximus the Confessor wrote a treatise called “On the Beginning and End of Rational Creatures” (It’s also called Ambiguum 7) which deals with the error. He was the theologian that heavily combated the heresy.Hey everyone. A few weeks ago I encountered someone on Facebook who basically said that we are in existence before we were born. However, if I understand things correctly, we are not in existence before we are born. Rather, we only come into existence when we are conceived in our mother’s wombs. So, how does one combat this false doctrine or idea that we are in existence before we are conceived in our mother’s wombs? Thanks in advance for your help!
The entire concept of our being can exist in God’s mind , before we ever become a spritual and corporeal entity. But it is at that moment when we do become an entity (the moment of co-creation ,conception) that we begin to exist.The word of the LORD came to me thus: Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I dedicated you, a prophet to the nations I appointed you.
Pretty plain that God created our souls, which would contradict his view of the soul existing from all eternity. There’s more, but that’s all I can think of at the moment. Hope that gets you started.The body returns to dust, the spirit returns to GOD who GAVE IT
It is the person who makes a claim that has to provide evidence for it. If a person XYZ says, “There are aliens in our solar system”, then the way to combat that is to simply ask XYZ what the evidence for that belief is. The default position is that we do not know whether there are aliens in our solar system.So, how does one combat this false doctrine or idea that we are in existence before we are conceived in our mother’s wombs? Thanks in advance for your help!
What I think Plato was getting at was the intelligibility of the universe. The universe makes sense because, while we are not “recognizing” it (as the connotation of the term nowadays suggest), we are re-cognizing it. It has been thought of before, by God. Namely, because the universe is a thought of God. If the universe can exist inside our minds, what does that say about the universe? A mind can only think a thought. Therefore, it would follow the universe is necessarily a thought. As the old Thomist adage goes, “the human mind cannot exhaust the essence of a single fly”. It would seem that none of us humans first thunk this thought, but rather God.Plato conjectured that before we ‘descended’ into the body, each of us knew the truths of the essence of everything: the Forms which are the nature behind all things. All of life, learning, knowledge, and wisdom are just a way of remembering what we’ve forgotten.
We know Plato’s idea is nonsense because we have no recollection of the things which we supposedly knew. It’s actually pretty silly and easy - just ask these gnostics whether they recall anything from Heaven. Also, ask them if they think the human body and physical nature are good things; they’ll probably say no.
Yes, you have it. And Origen took the idea from Plato, with whom the man was too enamored.This is a very old heresy called “Origenism”. Like, about 1400 years old. St. Maximus the Confessor wrote a treatise called “On the Beginning and End of Rational Creatures” (It’s also called Ambiguum 7) which deals with the error. He was the theologian that heavily combated the heresy.
Basically, we cannot have been connatural with God on the basis that we cannot leave God once we are in union with him, or else it calls into question whether or not he really is our final rest. Furthermore, creation is inherently incapable of union with God without grace. And grace presupposes love which presupposes freedom of the will. So the creature must start apart from God, by necessity, and will that union.
Isn’t that a Mormon belief?A few weeks ago I encountered someone on Facebook who basically said that we are in existence before we were born.
Yes, it is a Mormon belief but as far as I am aware this person is not a Mormon.Isn’t that a Mormon belief?
That certainly is taking it too far. Birth control is fundamentally a denial of justice to the spouses in the marital union, who God has bound together. And, of course, to the family, and by extension, the rest of the community.Is there any Catholic thinking that pairs this concept with opposition to birth control? I have a very traditional friend who’s main argument against birth control is that people are denying the very existence of children who have already been imagined in the mind of God. And if they have been imagined by God, then they exist.
I tend to think this is taking the whole birth control argument a little too far.