How does one fit into this community?

[jmcrae]

Sometimes, I feel like a fish out of water on this forum and several others too. I have lived in several countries and about 10 dioceses, I think, not to mention religious houses. None of them have been perfect. Some were so far from perfect that I prayed daily to be taken out of there. I remember one situation where I did ask the superior general to please do something about it or to transfer me. But I never told anyone else how I felt about it, just him. He was the only person who had the power to resolve my problem.

The reason that I feel like a fish out of water is because despite the fact that I have lived and worked in very imperfect situations, some of them downright sinful, I never felt the need or the urge to go public with my concerns. I never felt the need or the urge to express my opinion. Of course I had no feelings about things that other people did over there when I was too busy over here. I can’t be in two places at one time. As I told a lady who asked me if I had noticed the short skirt of the girl in front of me at mass. “No, I’m afraid I didn’t. Because I can’t pray unless I close my eyes. With my eyes closed, I can’t see the girl in front of me. So I either look at the girl and don’t pray or I pray and don’t get to see the girl. I wish I could help you, but I can’t.”

I realize that some people hate me. You should see my emails and the hate mail I get, because I just can’t bring myself to join in the complaining about the Church, be it local or global.

It’s not that I’m blind. It has more to do with something that I learned as a novice and I have never forgotten. “I am what I am before God . . . nothing else.” I know that I’m not the Messiah. I know that I’m not a caretaker. I know that I’m not the sharpest needle in the sewing basket. So I limit myself to tackling those things that are within my limited abilities and limited intellect.

I feel that I have to share this here, because I’m getting some PMs and emails from people who think that I’m indifferent, because I don’t complain. But I don’t complain because to complain on these forums is not going to solve anything. Unless Pope Francis or my bishop read these, its just not productive. Whereas, I find teaching very productive. When someone comes in with a mistaken idea or a question. That’s a good use of the time on the forum.

I also understand that bishops and popes have very busy lives. I have worked for several bishops. There is no way that they can handle every problem in a diocese. They have to pick and choose. The bishop’s priorities are not always going to be my priorities. However, I accept that, because we’re too different people. What I see as urgent he does not and the other way around. To get him to see things my way, I would have to change him. It’s not my role in life to change who people are. God puts people in our path to challenge us, to enrich our lives, and at times even to make us do penance. If we try to change those folks, we may find that we’re tampering with God’s plan for us.

Maybe it can be considered complaining. I’m not sure. When I find something that I think it’s sooooo serious that the bishop or a religious superior should get involved, I contact that person. But I never tell anyone what I saw or what I perceive to be a concern, except in broad strokes. I may say that I believe there is a problem with how we prepare children for Confirmation. I won’t say that there is a problem with how the following parishes prepare them for Confirmation and then proceed to make a list. If I have such a list, it goes to the bishop.

Am I strange? Am I really as bad a person as a few people say I am? I’m curious. Please be gentle. I’m an old man. :yup:

I don’t know. I’ve never really fit in anywhere, either, and I’ve lived within the same 20 miles my whole life. I quit letting it bother me when I was 14 years old; I met some other people who felt the same way and we started a “misfits’ club.” We didn’t do anything except hang around and talk about whatever we felt like talking about.

Maybe we need a “misfits’ club” on CAF?

I happen to like you and I look forward to what you have to say. I hope I’ve never said anything thoughtless to you in reply. I consider you one of the more intelligent members of this Forum.

 

[JReducation]

First, thank you one and all who have said such nice things to me. You’re truly a blessing.

Second, I’m truly excited about this thread. Here we have many people who love tradition, all posting on this thread. But observe, no one has said anything nasty to anyone. No one has tried to persuade anyone that “I’m right and you’re wrong.” No one has complained about the pope, the bishops, their pastors, Vatican II, the mass, yadda yadda yadda.

This is true fraternal charity. This is very much a part of Catholic tradition. All of those wonderful things such as the liturgy, rosary, devotions, and even the things that come out of councils are meant to bring us to this place, where we can please God by loving the neighbor.

I strongly believe that many people do not like to engage in discussions about tradition, because love goes out the window by the 10th post. Here we are, we all love tradition and we’re all very different from each other. We probably approach tradition differently from each other as well, but we have been kind, respectful, and even funny.

We should be able to share what we feel about tradition and if we’re selective, we should be able to share that as well, without fear of being bashed or feel that we have to prove something or justify ourselves.

As I said above, I belong to a small Franciscan community where we pray the LOTH from the 1962 breviary. But this is not in our constitutions. Our constitution says that the brothers will vote at the chapter and do whatever the majority decides. It also says that the brothers will be careful to observe the example and guidelines given to us by Francis and Clare.

Even though Traditionalists love Gregorian chant, guess what? We don’t chant. Why not? St.Clare prohibited it. There was a split among the Poor Clares over this. Some Poor Clare houses adopted the Rule of St. Benedict which requires chant. Those who stuck with the rules of Clare and Francis read the office, not chant it.

I offer this as an example of the fact that we can love tradition, but we don’t all love the same things about it and we don’t all have to buy into all of the same things. I allow my brothers to celebrate the EF, but it must be in the Franciscan tradition, which is dialogue, not silent. In this situation what I’m doing is integrating two traditions, the EF and Franciscan liturgical tradition.

I feel safe sharing this on this thread. I have never felt safe sharing this on other threads, because I could almost hear the shouting and indignation since we don’t do it the way that the FSSP or SSPX does it. One figures, rather than share my experience and have my head handed to me, I’ll just speak about everything else, except my experience with tradition.

It begs the question, how many other people who love tradition avoid sharing, because they’re different from other Traditionalists and they just don’t want to deal with the fallout?

 

[floresco]

It begs the question, how many other people who love tradition avoid sharing, because they’re different from other Traditionalists and they just don’t want to deal with the fallout?

Thank you for using this thread to model fraternal charity in discussing tradition. I hope to see more and more of this on this forum and will do my best to write my own posts following this principle.

I also want to draw attention to something you wrote earlier in the thread because I think it was important and bears repeating:

When trust is eroded, not matter whether you’re on the left or the right, people don’t realize how defensive they become. When they become defensive, it’s a short walk to becoming offensive. Think of a cornered cat. All of us need to work self-control.

 

[ProVobis]

Besides, I really would prefer to have someone like Tolstoy sign my petitions. I like his work better the Christie.

You never know. Maybe the Pope does too.

 

[the_phoenix]

As I said above, I belong to a small Franciscan community where we pray the LOTH from the 1962 breviary. But this is not in our constitutions. Our constitution says that the brothers will vote at the chapter and do whatever the majority decides. It also says that the brothers will be careful to observe the example and guidelines given to us by Francis and Clare.

Even though Traditionalists love Gregorian chant, guess what? We don’t chant. Why not? St.Clare prohibited it. There was a split among the Poor Clares over this. Some Poor Clare houses adopted the Rule of St. Benedict which requires chant. Those who stuck with the rules of Clare and Francis read the office, not chant it.

I offer this as an example of the fact that we can love tradition, but we don’t all love the same things about it and we don’t all have to buy into all of the same things. I allow my brothers to celebrate the EF, but it must be in the Franciscan tradition, which is dialogue, not silent. In this situation what I’m doing is integrating two traditions, the EF and Franciscan liturgical tradition.

I feel safe sharing this on this thread. I have never felt safe sharing this on other threads, because I could almost hear the shouting and indignation since we don’t do it the way that the FSSP or SSPX does it. One figures, rather than share my experience and have my head handed to me, I’ll just speak about everything else, except my experience with tradition.

It begs the question, how many other people who love tradition avoid sharing, because they’re different from other Traditionalists and they just don’t want to deal with the fallout?

It boggles the mind to think that anyone could become offended by your sharing the way you pray in Community as you do, and describing how other Communities pray … it is in accordance with the guidelines of the Church, so that should be good enough for anyone.

I’m glad that in any case you feel comfortable sharing in this thread, because otherwise, the rest of us might not have the opportunity to learn what you are presenting.

~~ the phoenix

 

[Giuseppe_Gavino]

Sometimes, I feel like a fish out of water on this forum and several others too. I have lived in several countries and about 10 dioceses, I think, not to mention religious houses. None of them have been perfect. Some were so far from perfect that I prayed daily to be taken out of there. I remember one situation where I did ask the superior general to please do something about it or to transfer me. But I never told anyone else how I felt about it, just him. He was the only person who had the power to resolve my problem.

The reason that I feel like a fish out of water is because despite the fact that I have lived and worked in very imperfect situations, some of them downright sinful, I never felt the need or the urge to go public with my concerns. I never felt the need or the urge to express my opinion. Of course I had no feelings about things that other people did over there when I was too busy over here. I can’t be in two places at one time. As I told a lady who asked me if I had noticed the short skirt of the girl in front of me at mass. “No, I’m afraid I didn’t. Because I can’t pray unless I close my eyes. With my eyes closed, I can’t see the girl in front of me. So I either look at the girl and don’t pray or I pray and don’t get to see the girl. I wish I could help you, but I can’t.”

I realize that some people hate me. You should see my emails and the hate mail I get, because I just can’t bring myself to join in the complaining about the Church, be it local or global.

It’s not that I’m blind. It has more to do with something that I learned as a novice and I have never forgotten. “I am what I am before God . . . nothing else.” I know that I’m not the Messiah. I know that I’m not a caretaker. I know that I’m not the sharpest needle in the sewing basket. So I limit myself to tackling those things that are within my limited abilities and limited intellect.

I feel that I have to share this here, because I’m getting some PMs and emails from people who think that I’m indifferent, because I don’t complain. But I don’t complain because to complain on these forums is not going to solve anything. Unless Pope Francis or my bishop read these, its just not productive. Whereas, I find teaching very productive. When someone comes in with a mistaken idea or a question. That’s a good use of the time on the forum.

I also understand that bishops and popes have very busy lives. I have worked for several bishops. There is no way that they can handle every problem in a diocese. They have to pick and choose. The bishop’s priorities are not always going to be my priorities. However, I accept that, because we’re too different people. What I see as urgent he does not and the other way around. To get him to see things my way, I would have to change him. It’s not my role in life to change who people are. God puts people in our path to challenge us, to enrich our lives, and at times even to make us do penance. If we try to change those folks, we may find that we’re tampering with God’s plan for us.

Maybe it can be considered complaining. I’m not sure. When I find something that I think it’s sooooo serious that the bishop or a religious superior should get involved, I contact that person. But I never tell anyone what I saw or what I perceive to be a concern, except in broad strokes. I may say that I believe there is a problem with how we prepare children for Confirmation. I won’t say that there is a problem with how the following parishes prepare them for Confirmation and then proceed to make a list. If I have such a list, it goes to the bishop.

Am I strange? Am I really as bad a person as a few people say I am? I’m curious. Please be gentle. I’m an old man. :yup:

There is only one opinion that matters and that’s God’s, so don’t worry about what others think of you Br, because after death you won’t have to answer to to them.

 

[Avila123]

Here we have many people who love tradition, all posting on this thread.

I have a confession to make. I think I might be an intruder as I don’t even know what a traditionalist is! In my defence I left the church as a child and returned 29 years later without the blessing of RCIA.

I haven’t a clue about differences and after 12 years there are still loads of gaps in my knowledge. For example, only a few weeks ago I discovered what the Angelus was (I rarely can get to a weekday mass). Fortunately, my parish priest (he has only been with us 3 years) is very patient and understanding, and said that there was no reason why I should know. He is great, he knows I am trying to deepen my faith and even let me attend RCIA last year.

If anyone is thinking of commenting on my lack of ignorance, please do so with love as I can get over anxious, my parish priest is on a well-deserved holiday and the Sacrament of Reconciliation isn’t available until next Saturday morning.

God bless you.

 

[JReducation]

I have a confession to make. I think I might be an intruder as I don’t even know what a traditionalist is! In my defence I left the church as a child and returned 29 years later without the blessing of RCIA.

I haven’t a clue about differences and after 12 years there are still loads of gaps in my knowledge. For example, only a few weeks ago I discovered what the Angelus was (I rarely can get to a weekday mass). Fortunately, my parish priest (he has only been with us 3 years) is very patient and understanding, and said that there was no reason why I should know. He is great, he knows I am trying to deepen my faith and even let me attend RCIA last year.

If anyone is thinking of commenting on my lack of ignorance, please do so with love as I can get over anxious, my parish priest is on a well-deserved holiday and the Sacrament of Reconciliation isn’t available until next Saturday morning.

God bless you.

I’m so glad that you’re here and that you shared this Especially the part that I bolded in red. I’m sure that everyone here can answer your questions with patience.

The important thing is to remember that you don’t have to know everything, just what you need to stay close to Christ.

 

[clem456]

I have a confession to make. I think I might be an intruder as I don’t even know what a traditionalist is! In my defence I left the church as a child and returned 29 years later without the blessing of RCIA.

I haven’t a clue about differences and after 12 years there are still loads of gaps in my knowledge. For example, only a few weeks ago I discovered what the Angelus was (I rarely can get to a weekday mass). Fortunately, my parish priest (he has only been with us 3 years) is very patient and understanding, and said that there was no reason why I should know. He is great, he knows I am trying to deepen my faith and even let me attend RCIA last year.

If anyone is thinking of commenting on my lack of ignorance, please do so with love as I can get over anxious, my parish priest is on a well-deserved holiday and the Sacrament of Reconciliation isn’t available until next Saturday morning.

God bless you.

I am also a revert. Two years ago I helped with RCIA as a team member. You learn and pray right along with the catechumens. It was a good faith builder to go through that process with them.

 

[JReducation]

I notice that there are a few people on this thread who are either reverts or converts. How does this work in parishes run by institutes such as FSSP, ICRSS, or CSJC? Is there some type of program? Do they have an RCIA?

I know that a friend of mine on this forum, who came in through a traditionalist priest was tutored by him. By I sincerely never asked anyone if this is the usual when you have a parish structure that is built around traditionalism?

This of interest to me, because I’m in my dioceses adult faith formation team and one of my concerns is that those who do adult faith formation have the best intentions and they truly love the Church, but they don’t always give the right answers or cover all that is necessary, because they lack formation. I’m always looking for something good.

 

[jmcrae]

I notice that there are a few people on this thread who are either reverts or converts. How does this work in parishes run by institutes such as FSSP, ICRSS, or CSJC? Is there some type of program? Do they have an RCIA?

I know that a friend of mine on this forum, who came in through a traditionalist priest was tutored by him. By I sincerely never asked anyone if this is the usual when you have a parish structure that is built around traditionalism?

This of interest to me, because I’m in my dioceses adult faith formation team and one of my concerns is that those who do adult faith formation have the best intentions and they truly love the Church, but they don’t always give the right answers or cover all that is necessary, because they lack formation. I’m always looking for something good.

In our Diocese we have a Catechetical Certificate Program which is run by a Theologian and his wife (who is a Religion teacher in a Catholic high school) - the program is run in three 7-week parts, and all three parts are necessary for the certificate. In theory, you have to have the certificate in order to be the coordinator of any kind of Catechism classes in our Diocese. (In practice, people are strongly encouraged to attend the Certificate program, and it’s up to them whether they do it or not.)

 

[littlenothing]

Maybe we need a “misfits’ club” on CAF?

.

I had the same thought, but there are going to be misfits among the misfits as well, so where does that leave us!

 

[littlenothing]

I have a confession to make. I think I might be an intruder as I don’t even know what a traditionalist is! In my defence I left the church as a child and returned 29 years later without the blessing of RCIA.

I haven’t a clue about differences and after 12 years there are still loads of gaps in my knowledge. For example, only a few weeks ago I discovered what the Angelus was (I rarely can get to a weekday mass). Fortunately, my parish priest (he has only been with us 3 years) is very patient and understanding, and said that there was no reason why I should know. He is great, he knows I am trying to deepen my faith and even let me attend RCIA last year.

If anyone is thinking of commenting on my lack of ignorance, please do so with love as I can get over anxious, my parish priest is on a well-deserved holiday and the Sacrament of Reconciliation isn’t available until next Saturday morning.

God bless you.

Its so good you’re back! Some people will act like youre a dummy, some will ignore you, but there are some really, really helpful and good people here. Even if you say something dumb! One particularly dumb thing I said on a post got me a PM from a really nice person who simply explained what I was missing, and I understood more by his generous and kind sharing of the Faith than if I had continued on with that whole thread! I don’t know if you can talk about another person in posts, so I won’t say who it is, but some people, like him, will always lead you to Jesus and to Truth and with the kindness Jeus would show you. We are all ignorant about some things, and that’s what CAF is here for, right?

 

[JReducation]

In our Diocese we have a Catechetical Certificate Program which is run by a Theologian and his wife (who is a Religion teacher in a Catholic high school) - the program is run in three 7-week parts, and all three parts are necessary for the certificate. In theory, you have to have the certificate in order to be the coordinator of any kind of Catechism classes in our Diocese. (In practice, people are strongly encouraged to attend the Certificate program, and it’s up to them whether they do it or not.)

Our diocese has a certification program for DREs. For catechists there are now required workshops and seminars, because they hired a new diocesan director of religious ed.

For example, we don’t have an FSSP parish or any of the Ecclesia Dei institutes. However, we do have traditionalists. There are parishes that offer the EF every Sunday. We have a meeting coming up in October. I wanted to take something to offer the team that would be useful for the person coming home with a traditionalist inclination, besides telling the person that he can attend mass at St. X, Y and Z parishes.

I had the same thought, but there are going to be misfits among the misfits as well, so where does that leave us!

That sounds like those pyramid constructions that Amway has. LOL

Its so good you’re back! Some people will act like youre a dummy, some will ignore you, but there are some really, really helpful and good people here. Even if you say something dumb! One particularly dumb thing I said on a post got me a PM from a really nice person who simply explained what I was missing, and I understood more by his generous and kind sharing of the Faith than if I had continued on with that whole thread! I don’t know if you can talk about another person in posts, so I won’t say who it is, but some people, like him, will always lead you to Jesus and to Truth and with the kindness Jeus would show you. We are all ignorant about some things, and that’s what CAF is here for, right?

Lilttlenothing is right. There are always very nice people around. If you read the threads carefully, you start to pick up who they are. Also, there are some people that make you feel more comfortable than others, just like in real space. You gravitate around them.

 

[jmcrae]

For example, we don’t have an FSSP parish or any of the Ecclesia Dei institutes. However, we do have traditionalists. There are parishes that offer the EF every Sunday. We have a meeting coming up in October. I wanted to take something to offer the team that would be useful for the person coming home with a traditionalist inclination, besides telling the person that he can attend mass at St. X, Y and Z parishes.

You mean lay people are teaching classes in traditionalist parishes?

I had always been under the impression that they only allowed members of the clergy to teach - or religious Sisters with solid theological education, in the case of children’s classes.

What if you could get members of the clergy to set up a formation program for lay Catechists that conforms to what they would teach the religious Sisters, ordinarily?

 

[JReducation]

You mean lay people are teaching classes in traditionalist parishes?

I had always been under the impression that they only allowed members of the clergy to teach - or religious Sisters with solid theological education, in the case of children’s classes.

We don’t have traditionalist parishes. We have mainstream Catholic parishes and some of them offer the EF as one of their Sunday masses.

But why must religious education be limited to being taught by priests and religious sisters? There are many very bright and well educated laymen, deacons and religious brothers. That’s one part of the traditionalist movement that does not compute for me.

We have a local SSPX chapel not too far from our house. I’ve been there twice, once for a funeral and once for a First Holy Communion. The priest treated me like a peon, because I’m a religious brother, even though I’m a superior, well trained in theology, director of an archdiocesan ministry, and have a lot of years of pastoral experience under my belt. On the second time around, I asked him if he has a bias against brothers in ministry. He was a bit hesitant and then said something to the effect that as long as they don’t teach or preach. So I asked him, what about retreats or teaching theology at the seminary, because I do both. He was not comfortable with the idea. But he is comfortable with sisters teaching the kids and teens. I don’t know about adults.

But I digress. We have Catholics who love tradition and converts and reverts as well. I’m not sure if they need something different by way of religious ed.

What if you could get members of the clergy to set up a formation program for lay Catechists that conforms to what they would teach the religious Sisters, ordinarily?

That’s what my committee is working on. Just an FYI, women religious are not required to study theology. Only male religious are. Theology is available if the sisters want to study it. Most formation programs for women religious offer some basic courses that allow them to understand the liturgy better, know how to read the Scriptures, understand the spiritual life, and know what the Catholic Church teaches.

But as far as methods in theology and the different schools of theology as well as detailed courses in the branches of theology, that’s only required of male religious and seminarians preparing to be priests, not of women religious. They can get these degrees if they choose to do so. Many sisters do so. Others get a secular degree but pad their program with many electives in theology.

Remember, even the most traditional sister is usually a teacher or a nurse. She has to meet state standards for licensure and certification. That’s often 4 to 6 years of school. Unless she’s going to do pastoral work, a profound knowledge of theology is not as necessary as long as she knows what the Church teaches. A good course on the CCC will do quite nicely and will be very comprehensive, it’s it’s taught well. It takes about two years to go through the CCC very deliberately.

 

[jmcrae]

We don’t have traditionalist parishes. We have mainstream Catholic parishes and some of them offer the EF as one of their Sunday masses.

But why must religious education be limited to being taught by priests and religious sisters? There are many very bright and well educated laymen, deacons and religious brothers. That’s one part of the traditionalist movement that does not compute for me.

I don’t know either, unless they just think lay people don’t have the time to put into studying as priests and religious do.

But I digress. We have Catholics who love tradition and converts and reverts as well. I’m not sure if they need something different by way of religious ed.

I think somewhere along the way I’ve become confused.

If the parishes are structured the way normal OF parishes are structured, then the lay Catechists must be going to the Diocesan formation program, are they not?

So what exactly is it that you are wanting to do for them, or what is the issue that is not being addressed?

 

[Avila123]

I notice that there are a few people on this thread who are either reverts or converts. How does this work in parishes run by institutes such as FSSP, ICRSS, or CSJC? Is there some type of program? Do they have an RCIA?

I know that a friend of mine on this forum, who came in through a traditionalist priest was tutored by him. By I sincerely never asked anyone if this is the usual when you have a parish structure that is built around traditionalism?

This of interest to me, because I’m in my dioceses adult faith formation team and one of my concerns is that those who do adult faith formation have the best intentions and they truly love the Church, but they don’t always give the right answers or cover all that is necessary, because they lack formation. I’m always looking for something good.

In our city, RCIA was run by a small group of dedicated lay people at the cathedral. They are really knowledgeable and great people, however, for health reasons, the baton was passed to the parish priests (we have 3 priests covering 6 churches and 2 for the cathedral) . RCIA was advertised as being for converts only, so reverts ended up on the children’s confirmation program. Our Bishop is working on what we have to offer the congregations and we are expecting a survey in the next couple of months followed by some positive changes. Things are moving forward and I hope there is some form of adult education or spiritual direction available for us.

 

[jeannetherese]

I notice that there are a few people on this thread who are either reverts or converts. How does this work in parishes run by institutes such as FSSP, ICRSS, or CSJC? Is there some type of program? Do they have an RCIA?

I know that a friend of mine on this forum, who came in through a traditionalist priest was tutored by him. By I sincerely never asked anyone if this is the usual when you have a parish structure that is built around traditionalism?

This of interest to me, because I’m in my dioceses adult faith formation team and one of my concerns is that those who do adult faith formation have the best intentions and they truly love the Church, but they don’t always give the right answers or cover all that is necessary, because they lack formation. I’m always looking for something good.

Hello Brother J.R.
In our F.S.S.P parish, Father provides instruction to converts. He also provides additional instruction to the parish as a whole from time to time, letting us know the topic of a series of talks -through announcements and the parish bulletin- and then holding them for an hour, before mass. The series of talks will run over several weeks, on Sunday mornings. These are not limited to adults, and families often attend as a unit, and then move from a cafeteria or meeting hall to the church for Mass.They tend to be very well attended-I hope the model will work well in your area also.
May God bless you. Amen.

 

[JReducation]

Hello Brother J.R.
In our F.S.S.P parish, Father provides instruction to converts. He also provides additional instruction to the parish as a whole from time to time, letting us know the topic of a series of talks -through announcements and the parish bulletin- and then holding them for an hour, before mass. The series of talks will run over several weeks, on Sunday mornings. These are not limited to adults, and families often attend as a unit, and then move from a cafeteria or meeting hall to the church for Mass.They tend to be very well attended-I hope the model will work well in your area also.
May God bless you. Amen.

So it IS a series. Would have a copy of the topics?