How does one go to Heaven, Purgatory or Hell DIRECTLY IMMEDIATELY upon death? (Afterlife discussion)

[Thomas_Aquinas_1]

Here’s a few quotes from the Summa that discuss the necessity of faith for a valid baptism in adults, and why children can receive baptism without having to make an act of faith first.

Question: Whether faith is required on the part of the one baptized.

I answer that, As appears from what has been said above (63, 6; 66, 9) **Baptism produces a twofold effect in the soul, viz. the character and grace. Therefore in two ways may a thing be necessary for Baptism. First, as something without which grace, which is the ultimate effect of the sacrament, cannot be had. And thus right faith is necessary for Baptism, because, as it appears from Romans 3:22, the justice of God is by faith of Jesus Christ. **

Secondly, something is required of necessity for Baptism, because without it the baptismal character cannot be imprinted And thus right faith is not necessary in the one baptized any more than in the one who baptizes: provided the other conditions are fulfilled which are essential to the sacrament. For the sacrament is not perfected by the righteousness of the minister or of the recipient of Baptism, but by the power of God.

So, an adult without faith can receive a valid baptism, but it will only produce the character, and will not communicate grace (which is what saves).

Question: Whether children should be baptized:

Objection 2. Further, Baptism is the sacrament of faith, as stated above (39, 5; 66, 1, ad 1). But children have not faith, which demands an act of the will on the part of the believer, as Augustine says (Super Joan. xxvi). Nor can it be said that their salvation is implied in the faith of their parents; since the latter are sometimes unbelievers, and their unbelief would conduce rather to the damnation of their children. Therefore it seems that children cannot be baptized.

Reply to Objection 2.** As Augustine says, writing to Boniface (Cont. duas Ep. Pelag. i), “in the Church of our Saviour little children believe through others**, just as they contracted from others those sins which are remitted in Baptism.” Nor is it a hindrance to their salvation if their parents be unbelievers, because, as Augustine says, writing to the same Boniface (Ep. xcviii), “little children are offered that they may receive grace in their souls, not so much from the hands of those that carry them (yet from these too, if they be good and faithful) as from the whole company of the saints and the faithful. For they are rightly considered to be offered by those who are pleased at their being offered, and by whose charity they are united in communion with the Holy Ghost.” And the unbelief of their own parents, even if after Baptism these strive to infect them with the worship of demons, hurts not the children. For as Augustine says (Cont. duas Ep. Pelag. i) “when once the child has been begotten by the will of others, he cannot subsequently be held by the bonds of another’s sin so long as he consent not with his will, according to” Ezekiel 18:4: “‘As the soul of the Father, so also the soul of the son is mine; the soul that sinneth, the same shall die.’ Yet he contracted from Adam that which was loosed by the grace of this sacrament, because as yet he was not endowed with a separate existence.” But the faith of one, indeed of the whole Church, profits the child through the operation of the Holy Ghost, Who unites the Church together, and communicates the goods of one member to another. From the Summa

For the one who has the use of reason, and for whom it is possible to make an act of faith, faith is necessary for baptism to communicate grace to the soul. For the one who is unable to make an act of faith (such as a child), the act of faith is made by others, and the habit of faith is infused into the soul awaiting the age where the child can illicit an act of faith.

 

[rinnie]

If a person below the age of reason is baptized, the habit of faith is infused into the soul along with sanctifying grace. When the soul reaches the age of reason, the child is then required to make an act of faith. For the child receiving baptism (for whom it is not possible to make an act of faith) the Godparents make the act of faith in the child’s place. For an adult, however, who has the use of reason (and is therefore capable of making an act of faith),* the act of faith* is necessar before receiving baptism.

According to St. Thomas, if an adult receives baptism, yet does not have the correct faith, the baptism itself does not communicate grace to the soul.

I understand that Thomas, but stick with me here, I am trying to get something across to the Gregory and get him thinking a little more deeply is all.

Go back and read more clearly what Gregory said. Then you will understand what I am trying to show here.

 

[Gregory_I]

RInnie, this is the part I do not understand:

AS you and I both profess, the formal adherence to the dogmas of the church are necessary for salvation.

We both profess to adhere to those dogmas;

So where do we depart?

I believe the departure is too many catholics are reading one dogma in isolation from the others. I know it can seem like I am doing that, but that is not my intention.

Someone can say: “Well, baptism saves you, but God doesn’t NEED to save you that way.”
I say: You obiously do not understand clearly WHAT we are being saved from.

TO stick a little more on topic here (I undestand the point you are trying to make, dogma develops, religion is nuanced, things ar enot as simple as they seem, that’s what I am saying):

Are infants born into this world with original sin?

Does original sin have a personal character, so that it is the guilt of adam and the sin of adam that condemns the child as though it were their own sin?

Do infants therefore DESERVE heaven?

Does the church teach that those that die in original sin alone are deprived of the vision of God?

Does the church teach Divine and Catholic Faith is necessary to be pleasing to God?

Does the church teach that Justification comes from a divine and Catholic Faith alone? Divine and Catholic faith being that faith that assensts to all the teachings of the church and that includes the necessity of the sacraments for baptism and keeping the commandments?

Do infants have divine and Catholic Faith if no one speakd for them to present them for baptism AND before baptism?

I think the answers are obvious: So, if you have an infant that cannot make an act of faith, is born justly condemned , by nature a child of wrath that deserves eternal punishment, is incapable of being pleasing to God, and has the stain of original sin on their soul, the consequences for which are spelled out clearly in Catholic Dogma, and the church teaches there is no salvation aside from baptism (Or the avowed intention to receive it after having made an act of faith):

What happens to that unbaptized infant who dies?

Gee, I wonder.

And like I said, baptism of desire is only the explicit desire for baptism, it is never defined otherwise. Desire without faith is also inefficient, for to desire baptism selfishly and without faith imprints the character, but not the grace, as THomas so eloquently demonstrated, and to have Faith, but no intention to receive the sacraments cannot profit a man to salvation, because sanctifying grace cannot come to a man except through the sacraments.

When I said Justification is different than salvation, I meant a man may be initially justified, but sin mortally and lose salvation. Salvation is only “Salvation” properly speaking when the person has departed this life in a state of grace and attained to heaven (or purgatory).

So, A Fervent Faith that inflames one with Charity , which is a grace of God, can inspire a man to desire the sacraments. THis man is justified, on account of his Faith which is pleasing to God, and his intention to receive baptism, which, if he were to die, without having commited mortal sin, the graces of which he would enjoy.

But he is not yet glorified; he may sin. I don’t call something saved until it’s kept safe (in heaven). After which, there is no pardon for sins except an act of perfect contrition, which, objectively, we can never be sure we have made.

 

[rinnie]

Hi Gregory, we have to determine what we are disagreeing about first.

I do not disagree what the Church teaches, I disagree with what you are saying the Church teaches is all.

You are saying that if a Child is not baptised in this world they cannot get into heaven, That is not what the Church teaches. The Church teaches that baptism is needed to gain eternal life in Christ.

The Church also teaches there are different kinds of baptism, and I showed you the scripture to indeed support that.

When you say that a child in this world cannot enter heaven is not what he Church teaches. It has never said CANNOT, the Church only teaches Baptism is required for eternal life in Christ. But God can indeed lets say, trump his own teaching. That is what the church teaches.

The Church can only say that baptsim is required for eternal life in Christ.

But you are making the Church say sometime it does not teach and that is a baby that is not baptised in this world will not enter heaven. This is not a dogma of the Church and has never been.

The Church teaches, and let me be clear on this, what I showed you in the CCC. That by God’s mercy we can trust in that Mercy that he will welcome that Child into heaven.

But am I saying ALL un=baptised children can enter heaven? No! I am saying with God all thing’s are possible.

Now you need to show me that children that are not Baptised CANNOT enter heaven.

 

[rinnie]

And also I disagree Baptism of desire is consided legit.

Please read the CCC 1259 and get back to me. Tell me what that means to you.

Also read 1257 The last paragraph, God has bound salvation to the Sacrament of Baptsim, but HE HIMSELF is not bound by his sacraments.

By you saying a Child that is not baptised in this world cannot enter heaven, you have bound Christ by his own Sacraments which is in direct conflict of the CC.

I will check back with you tommorow! For now I have a Party to attend!!

GO STEELERS!!!:extrahappy::extrahappy:

 

[Gregory_I]

Hi Gregory, we have to determine what we are disagreeing about first.

I do not disagree what the Church teaches, I disagree with what you are saying the Church teaches is all.

But I have only quoted ecumenical councils and papal approved and promulgated catechisms whiare part of the magisterium whis IS the teaching of the authority of the church, so what the heck?

You are saying that if a Child is not baptised in this world they cannot get into heaven, That is not what the Church teaches. The Church teaches that baptism is needed to gain eternal life in Christ.

I thought only Mormons adhered to the fallacy of doublespeak Ok, lookey here:
Council of Trent Session Five, canon 4.
4. If any one denies, that infants, newly born from their mothers’ wombs, even though they be sprung from baptized parents, are to be baptized; or says that they are baptized indeed for the remission of sins, but that they derive nothing of original sin from Adam, which has need of being expiated by the laver of regeneration for the obtaining life everlasting,–whence it follows as a consequence, that in them the form of baptism, for the remission of sins, is understood to be not true, but false, --let him be anathema. For that which the apostle has said, By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men in whom all have sinned, is not to be understood otherwise than as the Catholic Church spread everywhere hath always understood it. For, by reason of this rule of faith, from a tradition of the apostles, even infants, who could not as yet commit any sin of themselves, are for this cause truly baptized for the remission of sins, that in them that may be cleansed away by regeneration, which they have contracted by generation. For, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

THis dogmatic decree ends with Christs solemn promise to Nicodemus on the exclusivit y of salvation by baptism by baptism alone, and it is given in the context of a canon entirely about infants, therefore the last phrase applies to infants to via connexion.

But why let me interpret it to you? I will let the Catechism of the COuncil of Trent do that, the one that interpreted its decrees, promulgated by a Pope who was also a Saint, and as such part of the Ordinary Magisterium, which is the Teaching authority of the Church. If you deny this, you deny the CCC.:

Baptism Of Infants Should Not Be Delayed
The faithful are earnestly to be exhorted to take care that their children be brought to the church, as soon as it can be done with safety, to receive solemn Baptism. Since infant children have no other means of salvation except Baptism, we may easily understand how grievously those persons sin who permit them to remain without the grace of the Sacrament longer than necessity may require, particularly at an age so tender as to be exposed to numberless dangers of death.

And Baltimore Catechism no.4 states:
154. Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?
A. Baptism is necessary to salvation, because without it we cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven…Think, then, what a terrible crime it is to willfully allow anyone to die without Baptism,** or to deprive a little child of life before it can be baptized**! Suppose all the members of a family but one little infant have been baptized; when the Day of Judgment comes, while all the other members of a family-father, mother, and children-may go into Heaven, that little one will have to remain out; that little brother or sister will be separated from its family forever, and never, never see God or Heaven. How heartless and cruel, then, must a person be who would deprive that little infant of happiness for all eternity-just that its mother or someone else might have a little less trouble or suffering here upon earth.

I’m so cruel, Oh, wait, it’s the teaching authority of the church? hmmm…

The Church also teaches there are different kinds of baptism, and I showed you the scripture to indeed support that.

Nope, there is only one Baptism, sacramental water baptism. That which is called Baptism by desire, is only baptism by analogy, because it CAN convey the sanctifying grace of baptism, but its particular sacramental quallities, like the character and the full remission of the temporal punishment due to sin. Baptism of blood, is also baptism by analogy only, the person to be martyred echoing the words of Christ “I have a baptism to be baptized with…” As the scripture declares: “One Lord, one faith, one baptism, one GOd and Father of all…” Paul’s letter to the Ephesians.

Baptism of desire does not exist except as a theory and has no place in the dogmatic pronouncements of the church, except by indirect reference, and the context of these references make clear that desire is not enough, it must be preceded by faith, it must have charity, and it must live according to the commandments.

 

[Gregory_I]

When you say that a child in this world cannot enter heaven is not what he Church teaches. It has never said CANNOT, the Church only teaches Baptism is required for eternal life in Christ. But God can indeed lets say, trump his own teaching. That is what the church teaches.

Wow, God can trump his own teaching? Show me that one! lol. THat’s ridiculous. When has GOd ever established something only to tear it down? When God gave moses the law, did he give an exception to it? When Christ gave us the sacraments, the Church and the requirements to be saved, did he give us an exception? NO. God cannot contradict himself, and he cannot do ALL things. THat is a misconception. He can do All things in accordance with his nature. But never against it! He upholds what has been established, and he does not repent himself of a particular establishment, if he did, he could not be GOd, for to make exceptions is to allow for imperfection in design, but God is perfect, and is perfect in his designs.

The Church can only say that baptsim is required for eternal life in Christ.

But you are making the Church say sometime it does not teach and that is a baby that is not baptised in this world will not enter heaven. This is not a dogma of the Church and has never been.

Well, please, tell me, what kind of person dies in original sin alone, that is, having never commited any ACTUAL sins? There are only three kinds of People. Can you name them? I can, anyone can. But I will let you.

The Church teaches, and let me be clear on this, what I showed you in the CCC. That by God’s mercy we can trust in that Mercy that he will welcome that Child into heaven.

But am I saying ALL un=baptised children can enter heaven? No! I am saying with God all thing’s are possible.

Now you need to show me that children that are not Baptised CANNOT enter heaven.

Ok, Original sin. do you believe in it? THat is an automatic disqualifier. If a baby dies without original sin being erased, it will not enter heaven. If GOd found a way to eliminate original Sin in a child upon their death and infuse them with faith and grace and charity, they would THEN go to heaven.

But guess what? God has not revealed any such thing! And we are not bound by his SILENCE, we are bound by his words, and his words are clear, and the faith of his church is clear, and the constant teaching of countless Popes, theologians and councils are clear. YOu have to understand, that from Augustine until the 1960’s the issue was NOT whether Children went to heaven or hell, all the theologians of the church agreed unbaptized Children went to hell. THe question was:What did they suffer? That is where Limbo and the speculation came in, but that Children lacking baptism are denied the vision of God is the constant teaching of Popes theologians, and the direct teaching of councils. Council of Trent, session 5, canon 4.

And also I disagree Baptism of desire is consided legit.

Please read the CCC 1259 and get back to me. Tell me what that means to you.

Also read 1257 The last paragraph, God has bound salvation to the Sacrament of Baptsim, but HE HIMSELF is not bound by his sacraments.

You are absolutely correct, the Sacraments do not bind God.

He has bound himself to them.

See above for baptism of desire, and read 848 in the CCC.:

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

See, it is necessary for their salvation that they have Divine and Catholic Faith, without which it is possiuble to please God, so if they die, they die as Catholics, not as Jews, not as Hindus, not as muslims: THere is no salvation outside the church. Desire alone cannot save one. Only Faith, a Supernatural act of Charity, The Sacraments (OR the avowed intention to receive them, as per Trent) and keeping the commandments.

By you saying a Child that is not baptised in this world cannot enter heaven, you have bound Christ by his own Sacraments which is in direct conflict of the CC.

NO, I have taken Christ at his word and not declared him to be a liar.

 

[rinnie]

Gregory how is saying that God can so something in an extra-ordinary way make him out to being a liar??

Are you saying that if God Baptises a baby at his death that has not been baptised in this world makes his teaching a lie? I am confused on what you are saying. Let me show this teaching to you ONE more time. Please tell me if it say a person can or cannot enter heaven without having a baptism of ordinary means, Here it is.

1259 For catechumens who die BEFORE BAPTSIM their explicit desire to receive it toegeher with repentance for their sins, and charity ASSURES them salvation that they were NOT ABLE to RECEIVE through the sacrament.

Now lets stick with this teaching at the momemt. And lets be clear on it, does it or does it not say that a person who has not received the sacrament of Baptism can enter heaven or is it saying they cannot enter heaven. Please tell me what it says.

 

[rinnie]

And I also have NEVER seen a teaching that says that no one can enter heaven without having the Catholic Faith. Could you please show me that teaching.

The Church teaches there is no SALVATION OUTSIDE of the CATHOLIC CHURCH, not the Catholic faith or teaching’s. You need to understand what that teaching means. The Catholic Church is not a faith, or a Teaching. The CC is JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF.

When the Church teaches there is no SALVATION outside of the CC they mean there is no Salvation outside of JESUS CHRIST.

Jews can indeed enter heaven, Jews believe in God, they just have not seen that Jesus Christ is indeed God. And the same with others faiths, they can only be bound with what grace and knowledge they have been given. The Church has never said anyone could not enter heaven without the Catholic faith.

 

[rinnie]

Gregory PLEASE read what you are quoting.

848 Although in way KNOWN to HIMSELF GOD CAN LEAD those who through no fault of their own are IGNORANT of the gospel to that faith without which it is impossible to please God…

It just told you in ways that only GOD knows, (the sacraments are the only way humans and the Church knows, but you are bounding him by the sacraments, right there the Church isn’t and they are not saying if God does not bound by the sacraments he lied:shrug:

How can someone be led (led where gregory) God is leading them somewhere, those who are ignorant to the gospel, where are they being led?? You tell me then!

 

[Gregory_I]

All I mean, all I have meant, is that if a person is saved, then God will save them as a Catholic: He will not leave them in ignorance, he will give them the faith, without which it is impossible to please him, which is a divine and Catholic Faith, they will somehow come to an at LEAST implicit desire for baptism, and they will manifest charity and intend to keep the commandments. The lack of any of these things means a person cannot be saved, so any extraordinary means God takes is not to circumvent what he has taught, but to uphold it.

 

[Gregory_I]

Yes, God can save in extraordinary ways; but it is the equal teaching of theologians like Aquinas and Lombard that not only will he will he save in extraprdinary ways, but he will fulfill his own requirements; He is God, and cannot change, therefore he cannot change his requirements, therefore, those whom he saves, saves as though these requirements have been fulfilled. He doesn’t save as though bypassing them and annuling his word: Hence all are saved as Catholics, who are saved.

 

[Gregory_I]

Session 6, Decree on Justification:

CHAPTER VI.
The manner of Preparation.
Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ’s sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, [Page 34] to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God. ’

**Concerning this disposition **it is written; He that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him; and, Be of good faith, son, thy sins are forgiven thee; and, The fear of the Lord driveth out sin; and, Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost; and, Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; finally, Prepare your hearts unto the Lord.

It is this DIsposition which is necessary fo rjustification which is followed by justification itself:

CHAPTER VII.
What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.
This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, ***which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting. ***

Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instru-[Page 35]mental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; **lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one’s proper disposition and co-operation. For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circumcision, availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by charity. This faith, Catechumen’s beg of the Church-agreeably to a tradition of the apostles-previously to the sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow: whence also do they immediately hear that word of Christ; If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are bidden, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe given them through Jesus Christ in lieu of that which [Page 36] Adam, by his disobedience, lost for himself and for us, that so they may bear it before the judgment-seat of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may have life everlasting.

 

[rinnie]

Yes, God can save in extraordinary ways; but it is the equal teaching of theologians like Aquinas and Lombard that not only will he will he save in extraprdinary ways, but he will fulfill his own requirements; He is God, and cannot change, therefore he cannot change his requirements, therefore, those whom he saves, saves as though these requirements have been fulfilled. He doesn’t save as though bypassing them and annuling his word: Hence all are saved as Catholics, who are saved.

Huh Gregory let me make this easy for you. God can either save in etra-ordinary ways or he cannot.

You are saying he can but he won"t? Is that what you are saying? Because right now I am not sure what you are saying.

The Church teaches that we are saved through the Sacrament of Baptism here on earth. That is the authority exercised by our Priests that was given to them by God. That is ordinary means.

But the Church also teaches that God can save us by extra-ordinary means. The Priest are BOUND to the SACRAMENTS not God. That is what the Church teaches.

SO what they are saying is you are assured that Baptism and living out the Catholic faith can assure you eternal life in this world. That is Ordinary means of Salvation.

But they are also saying that while they can only save us by ordinary means, God can exercise Extra-means. But they are not saying he Will they are saying he can, he is NOT bound to the Sacraments which are ORDINARY MEANS in this world. Do you understand what I am saying.

 

[rinnie]

What you are quoting in 147 has nothing to do with infants that are not baptised into the faith, or other religions who are not Catholic.

You are quoting Catholic teaching they we as Catholic’s are bound to. SImply because we have heard the good news, and have Catholic teaching and are taught the fullness of the truth. It has nothing to do with other faiths.

You are trying to hold people who have not yet been led to the FUllness of the truth bound to it. This is not right.

 

[Robert_Burns]

RInnie, this is the part I do not understand:

AS you and I both profess, the formal adherence to the dogmas of the church are necessary for salvation.

We both profess to adhere to those dogmas;

So where do we depart?

I believe the departure is too many catholics are reading one dogma in isolation from the others. I know it can seem like I am doing that, but that is not my intention.

Someone can say: “Well, baptism saves you, but God doesn’t NEED to save you that way.”
I say: You obiously do not understand clearly WHAT we are being saved from.

TO stick a little more on topic here (I undestand the point you are trying to make, dogma develops, religion is nuanced, things ar enot as simple as they seem, that’s what I am saying):

Are infants born into this world with original sin?

Does original sin have a personal character, so that it is the guilt of adam and the sin of adam that condemns the child as though it were their own sin?

Do infants therefore DESERVE heaven?

Does the church teach that those that die in original sin alone are deprived of the vision of God?

Does the church teach Divine and Catholic Faith is necessary to be pleasing to God?

Does the church teach that Justification comes from a divine and Catholic Faith alone? Divine and Catholic faith being that faith that assensts to all the teachings of the church and that includes the necessity of the sacraments for baptism and keeping the commandments?

Do infants have divine and Catholic Faith if no one speakd for them to present them for baptism AND before baptism?

I think the answers are obvious: So, if you have an infant that cannot make an act of faith, is born justly condemned , by nature a child of wrath that deserves eternal punishment, is incapable of being pleasing to God, and has the stain of original sin on their soul, the consequences for which are spelled out clearly in Catholic Dogma, and the church teaches there is no salvation aside from baptism (Or the avowed intention to receive it after having made an act of faith):

What happens to that unbaptized infant who dies?

Gee, I wonder.

And like I said, baptism of desire is only the explicit desire for baptism, it is never defined otherwise. Desire without faith is also inefficient, for to desire baptism selfishly and without faith imprints the character, but not the grace, as THomas so eloquently demonstrated, and to have Faith, but no intention to receive the sacraments cannot profit a man to salvation, because sanctifying grace cannot come to a man except through the sacraments.

When I said Justification is different than salvation, I meant a man may be initially justified, but sin mortally and lose salvation. Salvation is only “Salvation” properly speaking when the person has departed this life in a state of grace and attained to heaven (or purgatory).

So, A Fervent Faith that inflames one with Charity , which is a grace of God, can inspire a man to desire the sacraments. THis man is justified, on account of his Faith which is pleasing to God, and his intention to receive baptism, which, if he were to die, without having commited mortal sin, the graces of which he would enjoy.

But he is not yet glorified; he may sin. I don’t call something saved until it’s kept safe (in heaven). After which, there is no pardon for sins except an act of perfect contrition, which, objectively, we can never be sure we have made.

Where you say "Are infants born into this world with original sin?

The answer is : Yes

But where you then say " Does original sin have a personal character, so that it is the guilt of adam and the sin of adam that condemns the child as though it were their own sin?"

The answer is WE DONT KNOW. We know they cannot go to Heaven. But what we do not know is that "they are condemned. "

That is where the debate begins.

 

[rinnie]

Where you say "Are infants born into this world with original sin?

The answer is : Yes

But where you then say " Does original sin have a personal character, so that it is the guilt of adam and the sin of adam that condemns the child as though it were their own sin?"

The answer is WE DONT KNOW. We know they cannot go to Heaven. But what we do not know is that "they are condemned. "

That is where the debate begins.

Thank-you. We only know what scripture tells us. And scripture says that there is no bounds to the love that God has for us.

And we know in scripture that God has great Love and mercy especially for Children, as scripture says do not keep the children from me. heaven is made of of such as these.

We also know that God does not have to work through the Sacraments, he is not bound by them, he is not bound by anything. God can do whatever he wants whenever he wants. Who are we to judge or ask him, he owes us no answers. We are not even worthy to even think he should or even would answer to us.

But on the other side of the coin yes the Priests are bound to the sacraments. Until Jesus comes back the sacraments are the only means the Priest has to help us to gain eternal life.

 

[rinnie]

By the way Gregory about original sin, I am sorry I never addressed it.

We are all born into original sin, but it is by the death on the cross and Baptism that wiped out original sin.

But there are more then ordinary means of Baptism which is my point and has been from the beginning of our discussion.

 

[Robert_Burns]

But there are two passages in Scripture that do serve to illustrate the core of the Limbo Controversy

Mark 16 : 16 He that believeth, and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not, shall be condemned.

Note , who is condemned?

And:

1 Cor 4 : 5 Therefore, judge not before the time: until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise from God.

So we dont know. But the one thing we do know is that GOD is infinitely just and the judgment of every man woman and child will be as well.

Pax

 

[Gregory_I]

Robert:

Original has a personal character, it’s been defined by the church:

C0uncil of Trent, Session 5 Paragraph 3

If any one asserts, that this sin of Adam,–which in its origin is one, and being transfused into all by propogation, not by imitation, is in each one as his own, --is taken away either by the powers of human nature, or by any other remedy than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath reconciled us to God in his own blood, made unto us justice, santification, and redemption; or if he denies that the said merit of Jesus Christ is applied, both to adults and to infants, by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the church; let him be anathema: For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be [Page 23] saved. Whence that voice; Behold the lamb of God behold him who taketh away the sins of the world; and that other; As many as have been baptized, have put on Christ.

Rinnie, I am sorry, I have seemed unclear, I gues smy passion for the truth is clouding my expression of it:

Let me start Here. God can save people who do not Know about him in extraordinary ways.

We both agree.

The Baptism of Desire, which is called baptism by analogy, and we both agree does not confer the character and full effects of baptism, can profit a man to Justification. THat is, he is a friend of God.

We both agree.

BUt here is the thing: I do not believe it to be consistent with God to save someone in a way that contradicts what he has required. That is what the document on the Fate of Unbaptized Children refers to:

" The theologians who taught, in one form or another, that unbaptised children are deprived of the vision of God generally held at the same time a double affirmation: (a) God wills that everyone be saved, and (b) God, who wills that all be saved, wills equally the dispensations and the means that he himself has established for this salvation and that he has made known to us by his revelation."

THis is the position I hold, and I hold it to be the greater position within the Church.

SO any extraordinary MEANS of salvation would be something like, an angel being sent to baptize, or a priest miraculously bilocationg, or something extraordinary. All things within God’s ability: We know that after Philip baptized the ethiopian he was “carried off in the spirit” to another town. This is what I mean. I strongly assert that those who are saved in invincible ignorance, are not saved by IGNORANCE, but savef by the Catholic Faith being made known to them in some amazing way. That is the bottom line. Is that a little bit clearer?