How does one go to Heaven, Purgatory or Hell DIRECTLY IMMEDIATELY upon death? (Afterlife discussion)

[rinnie]

Robert:

Original has a personal character, it’s been defined by the church:

C0uncil of Trent, Session 5 Paragraph 3

If any one asserts, that this sin of Adam,–which in its origin is one, and being transfused into all by propogation, not by imitation, is in each one as his own, --is taken away either by the powers of human nature, or by any other remedy than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath reconciled us to God in his own blood, made unto us justice, santification, and redemption; or if he denies that the said merit of Jesus Christ is applied, both to adults and to infants, by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the church; let him be anathema: For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be [Page 23] saved. Whence that voice; Behold the lamb of God behold him who taketh away the sins of the world; and that other; As many as have been baptized, have put on Christ.

Rinnie, I am sorry, I have seemed unclear, I gues smy passion for the truth is clouding my expression of it:

Let me start Here. God can save people who do not Know about him in extraordinary ways.

We both agree.

The Baptism of Desire, which is called baptism by analogy, and we both agree does not confer the character and full effects of baptism, can profit a man to Justification. THat is, he is a friend of God.

We both agree.

BUt here is the thing: I do not believe it to be consistent with God to save someone in a way that contradicts what he has required. That is what the document on the Fate of Unbaptized Children refers to:

" The theologians who taught, in one form or another, that unbaptised children are deprived of the vision of God generally held at the same time a double affirmation: (a) God wills that everyone be saved, and (b) God, who wills that all be saved, wills equally the dispensations and the means that he himself has established for this salvation and that he has made known to us by his revelation."

THis is the position I hold, and I hold it to be the greater position within the Church.

SO any extraordinary MEANS of salvation would be something like, an angel being sent to baptize, or a priest miraculously bilocationg, or something extraordinary. All things within God’s ability: We know that after Philip baptized the ethiopian he was “carried off in the spirit” to another town. This is what I mean. I strongly assert that those who are saved in invincible ignorance, are not saved by IGNORANCE, but savef by the Catholic Faith being made known to them in some amazing way. That is the bottom line. Is that a little bit clearer?

We are getting closer buddy, but remember not Catholic faith, THE CC which is Jesus Christ is how we are saved. Remember what Jesus said does your faith save you? THe answer is not just our faith saves us, It is God’s grace combined with our faith and works that saves us. It was Abrahams faith that saved him, but it was also his works and how he obeyed God. But it was not until Jesus died that he could enter heaven.

Unless I am not clear on what you call Catholic faith. Remember God can and does save all whom he chooses.’

I guess my question to you is define what you call Catholic faith.

 

[rinnie]

But there are two passages in Scripture that do serve to illustrate the core of the Limbo Controversy

Mark 16 : 16 He that believeth, and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not, shall be condemned.

Note , who is condemned?

And:

1 Cor 4 : 5 Therefore, judge not before the time: until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise from God.

So we dont know. But the one thing we do know is that GOD is infinitely just and the judgment of every man woman and child will be as well.

Pax

Hi Robert, Actually Limbo did indeed exist. But what happend is when Jesus died on the cross he took all the souls out of paradise, or Limbo as it was called. It was where Abraham and all were held (remember the rich man story Jesus talked about.)

I personally now, this is not Catholic teaching, believe that Limbo is what we called Purgatory today. Like Limbo in a way, is a holding place for souls that are deemed righteous to see God, but need can we say a little extra time to prepare for his comming

But you as I agree that there are ways and I believe Gregory is on the same page with us now that we can not say how and when God can work his mercy. But we all know he can and does because we know he is a merciful God.

And Gregory has a good point, he could us angels. Saints, who knows. And a good point to remember for us all, In EXTRA-ORDINARY circumstances at the hour of ones death, if no Priest is available WE also can Baptise a soul if they want us to. So remember that also guys.

Just because we do not have the power to interpret scripture or do ALL of Gods works, he does give us power from the HS to do his work also.

By to my point the Church did refer to Limbo as where Abraham was held in the O.T. But Jesus did away with it at that time.

 

[Gregory_I]

By divine and Catholic Faith, I mean that Faith without which it is impossible to please God as spoken of in Paragraph 848 of the Catechism. An Act of Faith. The predisposition of Faith. The gift of God. Faith is a gift, apart from which no one was ever saved. so, you Need Faith, a desire to receive the sacraments, charity, and the intention to keep the commandments. THis can dispose one to justification, and allow them to actually receive it.

 

[BlueSapphire]

Look here people:

From the time of the Fathers, Gregory the Theologian down through the Reformation there were two basic views on the fate of unbaptized infants: They positively suffered in hell, but only the mildest of punishments (Augustine and the 5th century African Church at the XVI Council of Carthage in 418 ad), and the Later view of Aquinas, that the Infants who die without baptism only suffer the loss of the beatific vision of God; yet they exist in a state of natural happiness and do not sorrow for they have no knowledge of what they would have missed. I espouse the View of Aquinas, who has more than once been called by popes the doctor of the whole church.

Catholic encyclopedia says under Limbo:

“The teaching of St. Thomas was received in the schools, almost without opposition, down to the Reformation period. The very few theologians who, with Gregory of Rimini, stood out for the severe Augustinian view, were commonly designated by the opprobrious name of tortores infantium. Some writers, like Savonarola (De triumpho crucis, III, 9) and Catharinus (De statu parvulorum sine bapt. decedentium), added certain details to the current teaching — for example that the souls of unbaptized children will be united to glorious bodies at the Resurrection, and that the renovated earth of which St. Peter speaks (2 Peter 3:13) will be their happy dwelling place for eternity.”

What is so terrible about that? It’s not only merciful, it is just.

Also, here is what St. Gregory the THeologian says, he fairly accurately expresses the pre augustinian view which is what Aquinas built on:

“It will happen, I believe . . . that those last mentioned [infants dying without baptism] will neither be admitted by the just judge to the glory of Heaven nor condemned to suffer punishment, since, though unsealed [by baptism], they are not wicked. . . . For from the fact that one does not merit punishment it does not follow that one is worthy of being honored, any more than it follows that one who is not worthy of a certain honor deserves on that account to be punished.” [Oration 40, no. 23]

I was always under the impression that at the end of time there would be only TWO destinations - HEAVEN or HELL… not HEAVEN, HELL, and LIMBO!

 

[BlueSapphire]

I’m not saying there is no LIMBO, it could well be a holding place for the innocents until the Resurrection on the last day, when Jesus will seperate the wheat from the chaff! After all, Heaven was shut up until Jesus came, and I would imagine that those who were destined for Heaven since the fall of Adam and Eve, were in a type of LIMBO until the Resurrection of Jesus.

 

[Robert_Burns]

Robert:

Original has a personal character, it’s been defined by the church:

C0uncil of Trent, Session 5 Paragraph 3

If any one asserts, that this sin of Adam,–which in its origin is one, and being transfused into all by propogation, not by imitation, is in each one as his own, --is taken away either by the powers of human nature, or by any other remedy than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath reconciled us to God in his own blood, made unto us justice, santification, and redemption; or if he denies that the said merit of Jesus Christ is applied, both to adults and to infants, by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the church; let him be anathema: For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be [Page 23] saved. Whence that voice; Behold the lamb of God behold him who taketh away the sins of the world; and that other; As many as have been baptized, have put on Christ.

Rinnie, I am sorry, I have seemed unclear, I gues smy passion for the truth is clouding my expression of it:

Let me start Here. God can save people who do not Know about him in extraordinary ways.

We both agree.

The Baptism of Desire, which is called baptism by analogy, and we both agree does not confer the character and full effects of baptism, can profit a man to Justification. THat is, he is a friend of God.

We both agree.

BUt here is the thing: I do not believe it to be consistent with God to save someone in a way that contradicts what he has required. That is what the document on the Fate of Unbaptized Children refers to:

" The theologians who taught, in one form or another, that unbaptised children are deprived of the vision of God generally held at the same time a double affirmation: (a) God wills that everyone be saved, and (b) God, who wills that all be saved, wills equally the dispensations and the means that he himself has established for this salvation and that he has made known to us by his revelation."

THis is the position I hold, and I hold it to be the greater position within the Church.

SO any extraordinary MEANS of salvation would be something like, an angel being sent to baptize, or a priest miraculously bilocationg, or something extraordinary. All things within God’s ability: We know that after Philip baptized the ethiopian he was “carried off in the spirit” to another town. This is what I mean. I strongly assert that those who are saved in invincible ignorance, are not saved by IGNORANCE, but savef by the Catholic Faith being made known to them in some amazing way. That is the bottom line. Is that a little bit clearer?

I understand your position so you do not have to attempt to prove your argument to me with lengthy apologetics. Limbo isnt Dogmatic - it is a theological position that remains undefined by Holy Mother the Church. You can never win the argument, unles you become the Next Pope.

My apologies for being short with you , But I see no point in arguing either for or against Limbo. I can say that I happen to believe in Limbo. I can also say that Limbo isnt Dogmatic. So what else really has to be said?

Pax

 

[Robert_Burns]

Hi Robert, Actually Limbo did indeed exist. But what happend is when Jesus died on the cross he took all the souls out of paradise, or Limbo as it was called. It was where Abraham and all were held (remember the rich man story Jesus talked about.)

I personally now, this is not Catholic teaching, believe that Limbo is what we called Purgatory today. Like Limbo in a way, is a holding place for souls that are deemed righteous to see God, but need can we say a little extra time to prepare for his comming

But you as I agree that there are ways and I believe Gregory is on the same page with us now that we can not say how and when God can work his mercy. But we all know he can and does because we know he is a merciful God.

And Gregory has a good point, he could us angels. Saints, who knows. And a good point to remember for us all, In EXTRA-ORDINARY circumstances at the hour of ones death, if no Priest is available WE also can Baptise a soul if they want us to. So remember that also guys.

Just because we do not have the power to interpret scripture or do ALL of Gods works, he does give us power from the HS to do his work also.

By to my point the Church did refer to Limbo as where Abraham was held in the O.T. But Jesus did away with it at that time.

Limbo is not Purgatory. Purgatory is Dogma.

 

[Robert_Burns]

I was always under the impression that at the end of time there would be only TWO destinations - HEAVEN or HELL… not HEAVEN, HELL, and LIMBO!

Because you assume Limbo is permanent. Limbo , at its Theological Heart lies between the Doctines concerning the Particular Judgment and the General Judgement. An example would be -

An Unbaptised Baby dies the day it is born. It is under Original sin so it cannot enter Heaven. However , it commited no Actual Sin so it may not necessarily be in Hell suffering for HIS OR HER Actual sins. But we know the baby is judged by Jesus as we all are at the Particular Judgement - the Judgement that occurs when we die but before the General Judgement. This is where Limbo comes in. The Theological Theory is that Jesus will not determine their fate until the General Judgement. in the Meantime they are in Limbo - Neither Heaven , Hell or Purgatory until the General Judgement. Because they cannot be in Heaven since they were not baptised. Limbo being a temporary place not a place of punishment but likewise devoid of the Beatific vision.

This is not a Dogmatic teaching. It is a theological theory.

 

[angelic06]

I have not read everything from page 3 of this thread, since everybody seems to be speaking past each other. So, here is my share of cherry-picked quotations from the document which is on everyone’s mind.

(from “The Hope of Salvation”)

#100 “Significantly, in the Greek Catholic Church there is only one funeral rite for infants whether baptised or not yet baptised, and the Church prays for all deceased infants that they may be received into the bosom of Abraham where there is no sorrow or anguish but only eternal life.”

My (angelic06’s) remarks: While it is true that the same paragraph says that there are different liturgies for the Latin Church, the fact that the Greek Church, in communion with the Holy See, has approved one, not two, liturgies for baptized or unbaptized infants alike, does imply that the Church as a whole acknowledges the possibility in the salvation of unbaptized infants, since whether Greek or Latin, we acknowledge the same Catholic Faith. Otherwise, the Holy Spirit would be the author of lies, and our whole Catholic religion is brought to naught.

NOTICE: I did not say that the unbaptized were assuredly going to heaven; instead, I acknowledge God’s infinite mercy, like the quote above and the teaching of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. (And admittedly, I have not read the liturgies of the Greek Catholic Church referenced above.)

This paragraph may also be of interest. Read the part about the votum. Notice, it says, “may”, not definitively. This also acknowledges God’s sovereign Majesty in judging who is saved and who is not. In other words, we are not God, and not even the Church presumes to know who will be saved or not.

1. “When an infant is baptised, he or she cannot personally make a profession of faith. Rather, at that moment, the parents and the Church as a whole provide a context of faith for the sacramental action. Indeed, St Augustine teaches that it is the Church that presents a child for baptism.[132] The Church professes her faith and intercedes powerfully for the infant, supplying the act of faith that the infant is unable to make; again the bonds of communion, both natural and supernatural, are operative and manifest. If an unbaptised infant is incapable of a votum baptismi, then by the same bonds of communion the Church might be able to intercede for the infant and express a votum baptismi on his or her behalf that is effective before God. Moreover, the Church effectively does express in her liturgy just such a votum by the very charity towards all that is renewed in her in every celebration of the Eucharist.”

Read also no. 97, which provides hope, though, as always, not assurance (we leave this in the hands of our merciful Lord), for the unbelieving spouse of a baptized Christian (this could provide an analogy for unbaptized infants):

“St Paul teaches that the unbelieving husband or wife of a Christian believer is “consecrated” through their wife or husband, respectively, and moreover that their children too are “holy” (1 Cor 7:14). This is a remarkable indication that the holiness that resides in the Church reaches out to people outside the visible bounds of the Church by means of the bonds of human communion, in this case the family bonds between husband and wife in marriage and parents and children. St Paul implies that the spouse and the child of a believing Christian have by that very fact at least a connection to membership of the Church and to salvation; their family situation “involves a certain introduction to the Covenant”.[131] His words give no assurance of salvation for the unbaptised spouse (cf. 1 Cor 7:16) or child, but surely, once again, grounds for hope.”

 

[rinnie]

Limbo is not Purgatory. Purgatory is Dogma.

I did not say that purgatory did not exist or was not Catholic teaching, I said that I think purgatory of today was kind of like a replacement of Limbo in the O.T. A holding place for souls who were ready to enter heaven.

Purgatory is a place that we go to when we are deemed for heaven but have to be purged from certain things.

Limbo was a place where souls were held until they could be released for heaven. I see quite a common demonator there.

My point is there are 3 places that exist heaven hell and purgatory. Limbo was always taught as being a middle place and I believe the purgatory replaced it.

 

[Gregory_I]

Limbo is a part of hell, it is the outskirts.

Limus= Edge, the edge of hell.

 

[Gregory_I]

"An apostolic constitution (Latin constitutio apostolica) is the highest level of decree issued by the Pope. The use of the term constitution comes from Latin constitutio, which referred to any important law issued by the Roman emperor, and is retained in church documents because of the inheritance that the canon law of the Roman Catholic Church received from Roman law.

By their nature, apostolic constitutions are addressed to the public. Generic constitutions use the title Apostolic Constitution, and treat on solemn matters of the church, such as the promulgation of statutes or definitive teachings. The forms Dogmatic Constitution and Pastoral Constitution are titles sometimes used to be more descriptive as to the document’s purpose.

Apostolic Constitutions are issued as Papal bulls due to their solemn, public form. The next highest category, after an Apostolic Constitution, is an Encyclical Letter."

Here is how this Apostolic Constitution “Effraenatam”, opens:

"Against those that procure abortions, or give sterility potions, or take them, or help these people, or give them counsel and consent.

SIXTUS V BISHOP

Servant of the Servants of God

For the perpetual memory of the matter.

Noticing that frequently by various Apostolic Constitutions the audacity and daring of most profligate men, who know no restraint, of sinning with license against the commandment “do not kill” was repressed; We who are placed by the Lord in the supreme throne of justice, being counseled by a most just reason, are in part renewing old laws and in part extending them in order to restrain with just punishment the monstrous and atrocious brutality of those who have no fear to kill most cruelly fetuses still hiding in the maternal viscera. ***Who will not detest such an abhorrent and evil act, by which are lost not only the bodies but also the souls? Who will not condemn to a most grave punishment the impiety of him who will exclude a soul created in the image of God and for which Our Lord Jesus Christ has shed His precious Blood, and which is capable of eternal happiness and is destined to be in the company of angels, from the blessed vision of God, and who has impeded as much as he could the filling up of heavenly mansions, and has taken away the service to God by His creature? ***who has deprived children of life before they could naturally see light or could be protected by maternal body from ferocious cruelty? Who will not abhor the cruelty and unrestrained debauchery of impious men who have arrived into such a state of mind that they procure poisons in order to extinguish the conceived fetuses within the viscera, and pour them out, trying to provoke by a nefarious crime a violent and untimely death and killing of their progeny."

Please do not say that I teach untruth when the Pope here solemnly teaches with the highest level of decree besides ex cathedra, that the opposite is True. That unbaptized infants do not have the beatific vision.

Pope Sixtus V Clearly teaches that unbaptized children do not have the vision of God: And if it is taught by the pope, it is part of the authentic and ordinary magisterium, meaning it is taught by the church.

 

[rinnie]

Limbo is a part of hell, it is the outskirts.

Limus= Edge, the edge of hell.

Think what you are saying again Gregory, Limbo is not an official teaching of the CC. As we know purgatory is.

But what I said is what I THINK, big difference between what I THINK and what if dogma of the faith.

Just like I can ask the Pope his OPINION, that is a big difference between what is his opinion and what has been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit. See what I mean.

So we cannot even get into an argument of a place that we do not even know exists.

But where I could be wrong, and I may, I thought Limbo was the bosom of Abraham in the O.T. I thought that was also refered to Limbo at one time, but I may be wrong. This I am not sure of. But I will find out.

But I thought limbo was refered to as a middle place also. Now we know purgatory is because it is showed to us in the bible. It is a called a cleansing place.

That is why I feel purgatory replaced limbo only because of the middle place. Or as the Rich man parable says a place between heaven and hell.

 

[GEddie]

That is why I feel purgatory replaced limbo only because of the middle place. Or as the Rich man parable says a place between heaven and hell.

Actually it doesn’t. There are 3 persons in Luke 16:19-31, and only 2 “places”, separated by a “gulf.”

While you could say that Abraham/Lazarus were not in Heaven because Christ had not opened it yet, the passage itself speaks of no such intermediate states.

ICXC NIKA

 

[angelic06]

Since we are talking about Apostolic Constitutions:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church was also presented on the authority of an Apostolic Constitution, Fidei Dipositum. The CCC, according to the constitution, “is a statement of the Church’s faith and of Catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium”. (paragraph IV).

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_jp-ii_apc_19921011_fidei-depositum_en.html

That being said, the CCC says this:

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.59 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.60 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.61 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

(I believe this paragraph was already quoted above, but I repost it to reiterate what was already stated.)

For those who say that God is absolutely bound by Himself, those views are not in accord with what was said above. Remember, the CCC was presented by an Apostolic Constitution, for those of you who want to argue with Apostolic Constitutions.

Again, as for the mercy of God:

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"63 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

This is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which, I must reiterate, was presented to the people of God on the authority of an Apostolic Constitution.

We should not presume we know more than the Magisterium of the Holy Church. Otherwise, we become heretics, plain and simple.

What do some of you have against trusting in God’s mercy? Tell us. I’m not saying that we know definitively that these children will be saved. I am only saying that we cannot say that they most certainly will not be. The Church, has in effect, said that if you believe in Limbo, there are grounds to believe in it, but if you do not, there are grounds to support this as well.

Some of you are diehardly looking for a way not to extend God’s mercy to others, pretty much with a vengeance–presenting magisterial documents which purportedly support your ideas but ignoring those which do not. And I mean you are pushing hard. The Magisterium cannot teach against itself. So, it is its own responsibility to clarify its own teaching, not that of the faithful. Should we not be begging God for mercy, instead of presuming that we ourselves should be allowed into the Kingdom but others should be denied it? Is it not a spiritual work of mercy to pray, especially for the dead?

Those of you who deny God’s sovereignty over His creation, and His ability to extend His generosity over the whole of creation, if He chooses, should take care to see that you yourself do not end up in the abode of perpetual torment.

Pray for the dead. Attend to the sacraments, as the Lord has commanded in His sovereign Majesty. But do not presume to know where His mercy ends. The Magisterium of the Holy Church will not even do this, as referenced in CCC 1261 and 1257. Should we dare to attempt the task?

 

[rinnie]

Actually it doesn’t. There are 3 persons in Luke 16:19-31, and only 2 “places”, separated by a “gulf.”

While you could say that Abraham/Lazarus were not in Heaven because Christ had not opened it yet, the passage itself speaks of no such intermediate states.

ICXC NIKA

Yes but we know from the previous O.T that we needed a Savior. We know that we had original sin. We know that there was no way that we could be free from Original Sin except by a Savior.

Now with that being said we know that Abraham was not in hell, because if you go to hell thats it you are done.

And we know that they were not in heaven because of original sin. So if you say there is no intermediate states if not heaven and not hell where was Abraham then??

 

[Gregory_I]

Rinnie, please, in fairness, are you reading my posts?

I have said Limbo is Theological speculation:shrug:

BUT the speculation is a very NARROW speculation: The speculation is: “what do the unbaptized infants who lack the beatific vision suffer?”

That is it, that is the WHOLE controversy of limbo.

Notice a priori, the constant belief is that infants who are not baptized do not have the beatific vision! The Church has never denied this, and in fact has promulgated it is as dogma.

It has not promulgated Limbo as dogma.

It HAS Promulgated the unbaptized who die in original sin alone do not have the vision of God.

Please re-read the whole previous page, and LOOK at what the Popes are saying in the Ordinary magisterium!

For something to be Catholic, it must be believed everywhere, always, and by all. According to St. Vincent of Lerins.

Now, Limbo itself is a doctrine that does not meet the requirements of catholic doctrine, it has a very narrow playing field, and was only really developed between the 12th and 16th centuries.

BUT THE DOGMATIC BASIS of Limbo IS Catholic:

That unbaptized babies do not enjoy the vision of God.

THAT*** HAS ***been taught everywhere (North Africa, Rome, Cappadocia, etc.), Always (It has its roots in Origen and before and has been taught up to the present day and was explicated as Dogma at the council of Florence directly, and trent, indirectly), and by all.

THe greeks allude to it, The Catholic church from Augustine 'til the Present time has explicitly taught it. It has been taught in the magisterium, in apostolic constitutions, it has been the constant theological tradition of the Church, and it has been written over and over again in various catechisms, and especially the DOuay Catechism and the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X ( A Catechism HE wrote!)

SO do not tell me that the dogma of unbaptized infants not having the beatific vision is speculation, it is NOT.

Limbo is speculation.

DOGMA is NOT speculation.

Angelic: THis is not about charity and fuzzies. Falsehood deserves no charity. THis is about the failure of modern day Catholics to even KNOW what their church teaches. What are the effects of Original Sin? Basic question, no one has answered it so far in accordance with the dogmas. NO one has even mentioned it as a factor! All I hear about is “Extenuating circumstances…”

No one here has so far even admitted the DOGMA that “all those who die in mortal sin or original sin alone descend to hell where they are punished, but with different punishments.”

Was Augustine “Uncharitable”? Was Pope St. Gregory “Uncharitable?” What about Pope St Zosimus or Pope St. INnocent 1? Were they all “Uncharitable?” Did they all care about keeping people out of heaven?

NO! THey sought to teach the Truth against those who would deny it. All I have heard on this thread (well, not ALL ) is dissent from dogmatic teaching and the tradition of the church!

I admit the CCC is authentic, I do not disparage it. But it is not infallible. SOme Catechisms just ARE better than others. WHY? Because SOME Catechisms seek to explicate the DOGMAS of the faith to the people and NOT insert theological speculational glosses to soothe modern sensibilities.

I do not disparage the CCC. Indeed, it is mostly well written. BUT when it comes to dogma, if the commision that wrote it made a slip of the pen, then, too bad. It should not be acknowledged. What should be acknowledged is the DOGMAS of the church as they have ALWAYS been taught. The CCC cannot be correctly read in a vaccum, EVERYTHING in it MUST be interpreted in the light of the rulings of previous ecumenical councils. Vatican II did not start the church over. There is no reset button here.

Better an inconvenient truth than a false peace.

 

[Gregory_I]

We should not presume we know more than the Magisterium of the Holy Church. Otherwise, we become heretics, plain and simple.

How can I know more than the magisterium when all I QUOTE is the magisterium? DO you know the dogmas of the faith?

What do some of you have against trusting in God’s mercy? Tell us. I’m not saying that we know definitively that these children will be saved. I am only saying that we cannot say that they most certainly will not be. The Church, has in effect, said that if you believe in Limbo, there are grounds to believe in it, but if you do not, there are grounds to support this as well.

THis part of my discussion is not about Limbo, it is about the DOGMATIC decree of the council of florence: “all those who die in mortal sin or original sin ALONE descend to hell where they are punished, but with different punishments.”
That is not limbo, that is dogma. Limbo is the theological speculation about what unbatized infants without the beatific vision experience. That they do NOT have the beatific vision was NEVER EVER EVER the speculative part. Read the history of this. What, you don’t think God sparing a little baby from the fiery torment of hell, who has done nothing to DESERVE such mercy, is not merciful?! We are the greatest advocates of Mercy; Without dispensing with true justice on the basis of DOGMA.

Some of you are diehardly looking for a way not to extend God’s mercy to others, pretty much with a vengeance–presenting magisterial documents which purportedly support your ideas but ignoring those which do not. And I mean you are pushing hard. The Magisterium cannot teach against itself. So, it is its own responsibility to clarify its own teaching, not that of the faithful. Should we not be begging God for mercy, instead of presuming that we ourselves should be allowed into the Kingdom but others should be denied it? Is it not a spiritual work of mercy to pray, especially for the dead?

Of course it’s a spiritual work of mercy! NObody said it wasn’t I am not looking for a WAY to exclude them, there is a very sufficient way, dying in original sin alone. Original sin excludes one from the beatific vision. I am not ignoring other magisterial documents, I simply saying, wake up, are you going to believe the last 40 + years of liberal theology, or Catholic dogma? THe Catechism can say what it wants, the DOGMAS speak loud and clear. AND IT HAS CLARIFIED its own teaching…by coming together in ecumenical councils, and declaring DOGMA, by publishing catechism that explicate DOGMA, by having faithful theologians theat present, refine, and expound upon DOGMA. Where is the faithfulness to Aquinas? Where is YOUR faithfulness to the DOGMA of the church?

Those of you who deny God’s sovereignty over His creation, and His ability to extend His generosity over the whole of creation, if He chooses, should take care to see that you yourself do not end up in the abode of perpetual torment.

So now YOU are passing an act of judgement on ME? I have never judged a single person on this thread, only classes of epople, who are judged by Scripture, tradition, the decrees of popes, the findings of ecumenical councils, and the Confessions of Saints. What more do you want?

Pray for the dead. Attend to the sacraments, as the Lord has commanded in His sovereign Majesty. But do not presume to know where His mercy ends. The Magisterium of the Holy Church will not even do this, as referenced in CCC 1261 and 1257. Should we dare to attempt the task?

Not if it means innovating something new: But it is NO INNOVATION to state what the church states. Her words are my words ALONE. My theology is HER WON, who has Taken Aquinas, the Angelic doctor as her OWN theologian par excellance. I do not interpret, I report: And here is the Report: “Light came into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their works were evil.” “Without Faith it is impossible to please God.” "Unless you be born of water and the spirit, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven."

 

[Shin]

But where I could be wrong, and I may, I thought Limbo was the bosom of Abraham in the O.T. I thought that was also refered to Limbo at one time, but I may be wrong. This I am not sure of. But I will find out.

But I thought limbo was refered to as a middle place also. Now we know purgatory is because it is showed to us in the bible. It is a called a cleansing place.

That is why I feel purgatory replaced limbo only because of the middle place. Or as the Rich man parable says a place between heaven and hell.

“The common teaching of the scholastic theologians is the within the earth there are four inner chambers: one for the damned, another for those being purged of sin, a third for those infants who have died without receiving Baptism, and a fourth which is now empty but once held those just men who died before the passion of Christ.”

-Saint Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621), Doctor of the Church

*This would be respectively, Hell proper, Purgatory, the Limbo of the Children, the Limbo of the Fathers (aka Bosom of Abraham) – All Hell in the general sense, as in, outside of Heaven the place and Heaven the beatific vision.

Purgatory also existed before Christ, so there was no replacement.

Thus the Baltimore Catechism, in reference to the portion of the Creed relating to ‘He decended into Hell’*

“Hell” here does not mean the place where the damned are, but a place called “Limbo.” You know that when our first parents sinned, Heaven was closed against them and us, and no human being could be admitted into it till after the death of Our Lord; for He by His death would redeem us–make amends for our fall and once more open for us Heaven. Now from the time Adam sinned till the time Christ died is about four thousand years. During that time there were at least some good men, like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, and others, in the world, who tried to serve God as best they could–keeping all the divine laws known to them, and believing that the Messias would some day come to redeem them. When, therefore, they died they could not go to Heaven, because it was closed against them. They could not go to Hell, because they were good men. Neither could they go to Purgatory, because they would have to suffer there. Where could they go? God in His goodness provided a place for them–Limbo–where they could stay without suffering till Our Lord reopened Heaven. Therefore, while Our Lord’s body lay in the sepulchre, His soul went down into Limbo, to tell these good men that Heaven was now opened for them, and that at His Ascension He would take them there with Him. “The third day.”

• Baltimore Catechism #4

Now, those who believed these promises and kept all God’s Commandments, and observed all His laws as they knew them, could be saved. They could not, it is true, enter into Heaven after their death, but they could wait in Limbo without suffering till Our Lord opened Heaven for them. They were saved only through the merits of Our Lord. And how could this be when Our Lord was not yet born? Do you know what a promissory note is? It is this. When a man is not able to pay his debts just now but will be able afterwards, he gives those to whom he owes the money a promissory note, that is, a written promise that he will pay at a certain time. Now, those who died before Our Lord was born had the Holy Scripture promising that Christ would pay for them and for their sins when He would come. So God saved them on account of this promise and kept them free from suffering till Our Lord came. If any died when they were little infants, their parents answered for them as godfathers and godmothers do now for infants at Baptism.

• Baltimore Catechism #4

Q. When should infants be brought to the Church to be baptised?

A. Infants should be brought to the Church to be baptised as soon as possible.

Q. Why such anxiety to have infants receive Baptism?

A. There should be the greatest anxiety to have infants baptised because, on account of their tender age, they are exposed to many dangers of death, and cannot be saved without Baptism.

Q. Do parents sin, then, who, through negligence, allow their children to die without Baptism, or who defer it?

A. Yes, fathers and mothers who, through negligence, allow their children to die without Baptism sin grievously, because they deprive their children of eternal life; and they also sin grievously by putting off Baptism for a long time, because they expose them to danger of dying without having received it.

• The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X

Q. 827. Whither go infants that die without baptism?
A. To a part of hell, where they endure the pain of loss, but not of sense, and shall never see the face of God.

Q. 828. How prove you that?
A. Out of John iii. 5. “Unless a man be born again of water, and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

Q. 98. What means, he descended into Hell?
A. It means, that as soon as Christ was dead, he descended into Limbo, to free the holy fathers who were there.

Q. 99. How prove you that?
A. Out of Acts ii. 24, 27. ‘Christ being slain, God raised him up loosing the sorrows of hell, as it was foretold by the prophet,’ Psalm xv. 10. ‘Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, nor wilt thou give thy Holy One to see corruption.’

Q. 100. What other proof have you?
A. Ephes. iv. 8, 9. ‘He ascending on high, hath led captivity captive; he gave gifts to men; and that he ascended,’ what is it but because he descended into the lower parts of the earth?

• The Douay Catechism

 

[Gregory_I]

From the CCC:

“This catechism is not intended to replace the local catechisms duly approved by the ecclesiastical authorities, the diocesan Bishops and the Episcopal Conferences, especially if they have been approved by the Apostolic See. It is meant to encourage and assist in the writing of new local catechisms, which must take into account various situations and cultures, while carefully preserving the unity of faith and fidelity to Catholic doctrine.”