How does one know that the Bible is inerrant?

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Richard_Hurtz:
The OT Jews recognized Scripture without the benefit of the Church. They also recognized the “inerrancy” of Scripture without the benefit of the Church.

I’m trying to trace the pre-Christian Jewish history of belief in inerrancy - do you know of Jewish uttterances on the subject 🙂 ? Thanks​

Did they believe in inerrancy at all ? My impression is that they were, and are, more concerned for the Torah than for the Prophets or the Writings - but all the Christians I know who have insisted on total inerrancy in all respects, insist on this for Ruth or Judges or Isaiah as much as for Genesis. I wish stillsmallvoice would contribute to this thread 🙂 Any info on all this would be most welcome

Inerrancy is a very ambiguous concept anyway - it means nothing in isolation; inerrancy is always inerrancy of or in some other thing. ##
 
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patg:
You are implying that we have decent copies of the gospels and that they were written by deirect followers, which is hardly true. The original copies of all the written sources have completely disappeared. The oldest fragment of any portion of the New Testament dates from the 2nd century, 100 years after Jesus’ death. The nest oldest fragments (of Matthew, Luke, John, and Thomas) date to about 200. The first complete copy of the Greek New Testament (Codex Sinaiticus) is from the 4th century. Thus, three centuries separate Jesus from the earliest complete surviving copies of the gospels.

The translations all of us use are not even from a single source - they are formed from about 5000 Greek manuscripts that contain all or parts of the new testament.

We really don’t have the solid foundation some are assuming. It is pretty clear that Jesus’ story was developed, edited, and embellished as time went by.

The telling may have been - but, different tellings can be of different elaborateness without disagreeing in their substance. Mark’s presentation of Jesus is less full in some respects than Matthew’s; and the difference could be a matter of different editions of the Gospel for different audiences and needs. That does not in itself mean that faith in Jesus had been falsified by an addition of illegitimate accretions or that the proclamation of this faith as a message had done so. The objection from greater fullness of detail in the respective Resurrection-narratives, that greater abundance of detail is a tell-tale sign of untruth or invention as a remedy for lack of knowledge, is not automatically valid.​

An anlysis of many of the common sayings shows that they were modified as Christology developed.

True enough - as to development, are you thinking of:​

  • development within the canon
  • development of the pre-canonical material
  • or what ?
Maybe one is being over-analytical 🙂 ##
 
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Richard_Hurtz:
Stop reading Dan Brown.
Actually it’s Raymond Brown I read - but you probably don’t like him either. Sorry for the comment about Dan Brown (I never meant that the DaVinci Code returned me to the chruch). I typed too quickly.
 
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Maranatha:
Hi Edwin,

The first step in the argument simply shows that we have more physical copies which are closer to the original writings than any other ancient document. We have copies in multiple languages from which we can cross reference to find copy and translation errors. The cross reference can also be used to work out the original meaning of the authors.
I don’t dispute that we have figured out something pretty close to the original readings. Even Bart Ehrman’s recent polemic admits that most of the textual variations are minor. I simply don’t see how this proves the historicity of the events described.
When you presuppose only secular scholars are you saying that you’ll only accept conclusions from people who have already made up their mind on the efficacy?
Of course not. I explicitly said otherwise. My point was exactly the opposite–that you can’t base the argument only on the conclusion of scholars who agree with you (which in some cases means a minority even of Catholic scholars). I should not have used the word “secular,” but I did define what I meant the second time I used it. I meant simply the whole academic guild of NT scholars, embracing believers and non-believers–from F. F. Bruce (may he rest in peace) to Bart Ehrman.

In other words, the fact that you can find a few conservative scholars to support what you want to argue doesn’t make the argument persuasive. To support the huge superstructure you want to build, you need historical evidence that is convincing to people of a wide variety of ideological perspectives.

Edwin
 
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Lazerlike42:
This is correct. Modern textual sciences are able to ascertain the authenticity of a manuscript to an amazing degree. It really is astounding what they can do.

There are several historical figures that kids learn about in school that we simply take for granted as having existed, but the truth is that we have more evidence that the Bible is accurate than we do that these folks even existed! (I don’t want to mention speficis ones because I honestly don’t remember and I don’t want to say something untrue. Perhaps someone who does know could post examples).
Alexander the Great. The earliest biographies that we still have date from several centuries after his time, I think.

But this is a misleading argument. You are confusing evidence for texts with evidence for events. They aren’t the same. There is all sorts of archaeological and other indirect evidence for Alexander the Great. And on the other hand, proving that the NT texts were all written a century of Jesus’ time does not prove that they are accurate in all they affirm. Determining the historicity of an account does not simply boil down to counting the years between when it was written and when the events occur.

Edwin
 
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Contarini:
I don’t dispute that we have figured out something pretty close to the original readings. Even Bart Ehrman’s recent polemic admits that most of the textual variations are minor. I simply don’t see how this proves the historicity of the events described.

Of course not. I explicitly said otherwise. My point was exactly the opposite–that you can’t base the argument only on the conclusion of scholars who agree with you (which in some cases means a minority even of Catholic scholars). I should not have used the word “secular,” but I did define what I meant the second time I used it. I meant simply the whole academic guild of NT scholars, embracing believers and non-believers–from F. F. Bruce (may he rest in peace) to Bart Ehrman.

In other words, the fact that you can find a few conservative scholars to support what you want to argue doesn’t make the argument persuasive. To support the huge superstructure you want to build, you need historical evidence that is convincing to people of a wide variety of ideological perspectives.

Edwin

That sounds like saying that Biblical scholarship crosses Church boundaries. Which it does - and this is something warmly encouraged in the Vatican II document “Dei Verbum”.​

I see a major problem here - it can be acutely painful for Catholics to live with these facts, because the prevailing spirit in the CC has long been one of immovable hostility to non-Catholic Bible work. If one mentions that Mgr. Carlo Martini (as he then was) collaborated in the work which resulted in the United Bible Societies NT, that won’t recommend the UBS Greek NT in particular or interconfessional Biblical work in general, but may well show instead that such work is a Very Bad Thing; that passage in Dei Verbum fits snugly into the idea that Vatican II is a betrayal of the Catholic Faith. It is far from obvious that the peaceable approach to Biblical matters in Dei Verbum is an improvement upon the rather defensive approach of “Providentissimus Deus”.

I suspect some people are going to find the notion that non-Catholics have anything worth saying about the Bible ludicrous.

Somehow - and God alone knows how - there has to be some kind of dialogue between those whose environment is the “academic guild of NT scholars, embracing believers and non-believers”, and Catholics - as well as others - who reject that sort of study.

I know that is slightly off-topic. ##
 
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Contarini:
Alexander the Great. The earliest biographies that we still have date from several centuries after his time, I think.

But this is a misleading argument. You are confusing evidence for texts with evidence for events. They aren’t the same. There is all sorts of archaeological and other indirect evidence for Alexander the Great. And on the other hand, proving that the NT texts were all written a century of Jesus’ time does not prove that they are accurate in all they affirm. Determining the historicity of an account does not simply boil down to counting the years between when it was written and when the events occur.

Edwin

Examples of fictions can illustrate some of these points 🙂

“The Lord of the Rings” is very precise in its description of details - that does not make it a true history. This is relevant to some discussions of whether a text is recording actual events - such as the Fourth Gospel. Precision in detail is not of itself proof of historical actuality.

There are millions of copies of TLOTR - does that mean it is more reliable as history than the NT ? Yet the NT’s historicity is sometimes defended on the ground that there are so many copies of it. Even if there are more copies of it than of any other book in antiquity - and there are ambiguities here over what constitutes a book - that proves that it was widely read; not that it was thought to be true. For evidence of what sort of book it was thought to be, we have to go to the writings of the people who used it - IOW, to the Fathers; a count of the manuscripts can’t help us answer that question.

FWIW, Lucian of Samosata calls his story of a journey to the Moon a “True Account” - calling a book or narrative true, does not mean it is. If one takes a view like that of Plato, who rejected the poets from his model state, Lucian will be branded a liar because his Vera Historia is not a “history” of what “actually happened”. That would be like calling Geoffrey of Monmouth a liar for saying that Aeneas was the ancestor of King Lear or of Cymbeline, in his “History of the Kings of Britain”. Whatever Geoffrey may have had in mind, Lucian was writing a “romance” - not an autobiography.

Some Christians need to have a more nuanced approach to the understanding of the Bible - then there might be fewer misunderstandings; there would almost certainly be much less anguish. ##
 
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patg:
Actually it’s Raymond Brown I read - but you probably don’t like him either. Sorry for the comment about Dan Brown (I never meant that the DaVinci Code returned me to the chruch). I typed too quickly.
actually I think one is better off reading Dan… his problems are much more obvious and thus easier to reject.l

Raymond is more subtle, and clever when he mis-speaks.
 
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patg:
It is interesting that you would use Paul as an example since he provides almost no historical information on Jesus whatsoever - no stories, no teachings - nothing about his ministry even related to historical evidence. He apparently didn’t know any significant details and he wrote well before the gospels were put together. I don’t know of many who would think 20 years is “close proximity” in relation to memories.
Nonsense.

If the Son of God appeared to you in a vision, struck you off your horse, blinded you, then made you His apostle, you wouldn’t remember the details after 20 years?
I never said the intention was not preserved. AND if the writings are so critically important, isn’t it strange that the Holy Spirit didn’t bother to inspire anyone to save a copy or two???
Hopefully here you are not doing what it seems you are–questioning the importance of Scripture.

Suffice to say that Scripture is rather critical to one’s faith life.

As was already mentioned, the original copies of 500 or 1000 year old writings are, if not totally non-existent, nearly so.

Double or quadruple that and your argument becomes garbage. The Holy Spirit has nothing to do with man’s inept nature, nor the thousands of years of fires, war, natural disaster, and other intervening factors that cause originals to be lost.

I question the authority of your “Scripture scholars,” whoever they are.

John Dominic Crossan considers himself a “Scripture scholar.”

Turns out he and a group of his friends call themselves the “Jesus Seminar” and get together on occasion to vote on which Scriptural teachings sound like they might have occurred and which sound like they didn’t.

What a “scholarly” approach. I read one of his books that happened to deny that Christ was the Son of God by querying, “What is Jesus implying here? Biological sonship?”

Smart guy, that “Scripture scholar.” Please.
For example, the whole ending of John was added on by someone much later as we can tell by the very form of the Greek…
This means very little, as someone else has already pointed out.
 
Daniel Marsh:
How does one know that the Bible is inerrant?

Don’t confuse inerrant with infallible.
Because of the same reason I know that Jesus is Divine … the Church teaches it.
 
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Richard_Hurtz:
The OT Jews recognized Scripture without the benefit of the Church. They also recognized the “inerrancy” of Scripture without the benefit of the Church.
That’s absurd. The OT Church was “the Church.” Thus, they too had the benefit of “the Church.”
 
Daniel Marsh:
I am asking the question about inerrancy because I am seeing people in discussions that think protestants believe that they believe the scriptures are infallible when in fact they believe the scriptures to be inerrant.
That really depends upon which Protestant you are talking to, doesn’t it? For example, the *General Assembly *of the Presbyterian Church (USA) in Jun 2001, officials from the PC (USA) stated: “Our confessions do teach biblical infallibility. Infallibility affirms the entire truthfulness of scripture without depending on every exact detail.
 
Daniel Marsh:
follow up question, if Jesus taught in aramaic, then how do we know that the disciples accurately presented what he taught in greek?
Same answer…the Church established by God and commission to teach in His name tells us that the Sacred Scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit, and that everything the Sacred author asserted is to be understood as being asserted by the Holy Spirit.
 
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patg:
…Dan [Brown] and many others like him are the small lights of reason which brought me back to and keep me associated with the church.
This explains a lot.
 
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itsjustdave1988:
Same answer…the Church established by God and commission to teach in His name tells us that the Sacred Scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit, and that everything the Sacred author asserted is to be understood as being asserted by the Holy Spirit.
This right here should end the thread.

Nice work itsjustdave.
 
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itsjustdave1988:
This explains a lot.

patg’s post at 43 corrects that:​

patg said:
“Actually it’s Raymond Brown I read - but you probably don’t like him either. Sorry for the comment about Dan Brown (I never meant that the DaVinci Code returned me to the chruch). I typed too quickly.”

Is the problem:
  • Father Brown as a person
  • His conclusions
  • His methods
or what ? If people want others - non-Catholics, say - to believe the Bible is inerrant, the believers in inerrancy need to ask:
  • why it is so important that it should be inerrant
  • how it can make sense to say that texts never seen by anyone are inerrant
  • how texts in Hebrew of which the vocalisation was added in the Christian era are inerrant - was the unvocalised text inerrant ?
  • If a text is consonantal, the markings which are the letters of the words will be more liable to being read so as to provide different meanings - how is a text of which the meaning is not fixed by the way it is written, inerrant ?
  • how texts which are corrected by other texts within the canon are inerrant
  • How blasphemies and recorded in the texts can be called inerrant
  • how the inerrancy of (say)
  • how a corrupted text is inerrant
  • how a text which could be translated equally well to mean wholly different things is inerrant
and, indeed, what inerrancy as a concept denotes - what does it mean to say, “This passage is inerrant” ?

What, for that matter, is the Bible ? Is its truth that of propositions and no more than that - or is its truth more akin to that of a person ?

ISTM that the Bible is true according as it mediates Christ - that it is very like the Church, in fact. Both are quasi-personal, both are flawed in a thousand ways - but both are enveloped and bathed in the ocean of God’s grace, so that the flaws are no obstacle to the making known of Christ who speaks in through both.

IOW, defenders of inerrancy need to be able to account for much much more than the letter of the teaching of the Church. Insisting a thing is true, is anything but convincing if the insisters upon it can do no more than insist - they need to be able to answer questions about what the thing they insist on implies both for other doctrines and for other things important to Catholic Christianity.

And, what is the function of inerrancy
  • and, of the insistence on it ?
Is it meant to function, say, as a barrier to “liberal” questionings ? If so, it is very poor barrier against such things.

It’s very difficult to have any kind of useful discussion, helpful to all involved, with people whose thinking about a doctrine begins and ends with purely dogmatic reasoning, the reasoning which boils down to “It’s true because I say it is”.

The trouble with dogmatic reasoning, is that that sort of reasoning is not distinctively Christian - any dictatorship with a doctrine to preserve can say “It’s true because I say so”. The Church (like the Bible) is credible because of Christ - not because of those elements in it which resemble things which are not Christlike. Authority is not enough - or rather, the communion Christ gives through the Bible has its own authority.

What idea do people have of the authority of the Bible ? We need to think about this too - like so much else; inspiration, for instance. Doctrines imply things - and that is as true of doctrines of inerrancy, as of any others. Doctrines, and what they are taken to mean and imply, affect each other, just as the parts in our bodies do. Which is why a doctrine whether of inerrancy or of anything else that makes no sense is bad for all the rest of the Faith.

We cannot hand on to others as true what has not already entered into each of us as true - the Church must give away what she has received; but she cannot give, unless she has received first. And that means work on our part - not mere passive reception of statements expressing doctrines; for that is only a beginning at understanding them.

IOW - we have to think about things theologically. ##
 
What’s dan brown have to do with my question?

I need to print this thread out to follow it. How many pages would such a print out be?
 
Gottle of Geer said:
## patg’s post at 43 corrects that:

Is the problem:
  • Father Brown as a person
  • His conclusions
  • His methods
or what ? If people want others - non-Catholics, say - to believe the Bible is inerrant, the believers in inerrancy need to ask:
  • why it is so important that it should be inerrant
  • how it can make sense to say that texts never seen by anyone are inerrant
  • how texts in Hebrew of which the vocalisation was added in the Christian era are inerrant - was the unvocalised text inerrant ?
  • If a text is consonantal, the markings which are the letters of the words will be more liable to being read so as to provide different meanings - how is a text of which the meaning is not fixed by the way it is written, inerrant ?
  • how texts which are corrected by other texts within the canon are inerrant
  • How blasphemies and recorded in the texts can be called inerrant
  • how the inerrancy of (say)
  • how a corrupted text is inerrant
  • how a text which could be translated equally well to mean wholly different things is inerrant
and, indeed, what inerrancy as a concept denotes - what does it mean to say, “This passage is inerrant” ?

What, for that matter, is the Bible ? Is its truth that of propositions and no more than that - or is its truth more akin to that of a person ?

ISTM that the Bible is true according as it mediates Christ - that it is very like the Church, in fact. Both are quasi-personal, both are flawed in a thousand ways - but both are enveloped and bathed in the ocean of God’s grace, so that the flaws are no obstacle to the making known of Christ who speaks in through both.

IOW, defenders of inerrancy need to be able to account for much much more than the letter of the teaching of the Church. Insisting a thing is true, is anything but convincing if the insisters upon it can do no more than insist - they need to be able to answer questions about what the thing they insist on implies both for other doctrines and for other things important to Catholic Christianity.

And, what is the function of inerrancy
  • and, of the insistence on it ?
Is it meant to function, say, as a barrier to “liberal” questionings ? If so, it is very poor barrier against such things.

It’s very difficult to have any kind of useful discussion, helpful to all involved, with people whose thinking about a doctrine begins and ends with purely dogmatic reasoning, the reasoning which boils down to “It’s true because I say it is”.

The trouble with dogmatic reasoning, is that that sort of reasoning is not distinctively Christian - any dictatorship with a doctrine to preserve can say “It’s true because I say so”. The Church (like the Bible) is credible because of Christ - not because of those elements in it which resemble things which are not Christlike. Authority is not enough - or rather, the communion Christ gives through the Bible has its own authority.

What idea do people have of the authority of the Bible ? We need to think about this too - like so much else; inspiration, for instance. Doctrines imply things - and that is as true of doctrines of inerrancy, as of any others. Doctrines, and what they are taken to mean and imply, affect each other, just as the parts in our bodies do. Which is why a doctrine whether of inerrancy or of anything else that makes no sense is bad for all the rest of the Faith.

We cannot hand on to others as true what has not already entered into each of us as true - the Church must give away what she has received; but she cannot give, unless she has received first. And that means work on our part - not mere passive reception of statements expressing doctrines; for that is only a beginning at understanding them.

IOW - we have to think about things theologically. ##

**
Those questions show a serious lack of understanding of inerrancy. Protestants who claim the scriptures are inerrant only do so for the orginals ( which we do not have ). And, only some King James Only people go as far as claim their translation to be inspired. No protestant otherwise, even thinks any translation is inerrant. Most if not all them questions are simply strawmen without legs.
**
 
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