How does one know that the Bible is inerrant?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Daniel_Marsh
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
Richard_Hurtz:
The Urim and Thurrim were lost (along with the Ark of the Covenant) when the FIRST temple was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar in 586 BC, you’re talking about the destruction of the SECOND temple (70 AD).

Secondly, it is a matter of fact that Catholic theology maintains that individuals CAN lose their salvation - so I’m at a loss to understand your point about not losing the redemption that Christ bought on the cross.

I stand my by my earlier assertion - this is a very weak argument and poor typology.

Peace to you,
Richard
According to New Advent, “Finally, when once the era of the great prophets opens, it is through them God manifests His will; the use of the ephod ceases; the Urim and Thummim are silent and ultimately lost.”

It is also interesting to note from the article that in addition to a Yes / No answer they could refuse to answer.
 
40.png
Maranatha:
According to New Advent, “Finally, when once the era of the great prophets opens, it is through them God manifests His will; the use of the ephod ceases; the Urim and Thummim are silent and ultimately lost.”
True, God’s Will was made known to Israel through the prophets. But all this does is make my point for me relative to the entire question of inerrancy. God’s Will is made known through the prophets. And how did Israel know who was a prophet and who was not? Simple, God established a strict and uncompromising standard for judging the validity of any prophecy: the future event must fulfill the prophetic prediction.

How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. (Deut.18:21-22).

When the prophet’s words came to pass the people knew to pay attention to, remember, pass on and eventually write down those words. That’s how the Israelites knew what the Word of God was - not from an OT Magesterium.

The Urim and Thurrim were “ultimately lost” when the first temple was destroyed.
40.png
Maranatha:
It is also interesting to note from the article that in addition to a Yes / No answer they could refuse to answer.
Yes they could refuse to answer according to the article you cited; “This happened when the inquirer was ritually unclean.”

But Catholic theology does not recognize the lack of impeccability as impacting infallibility - yet another dissimilarity between the RCC’s infallibility and the Urim and Thurrim.

Peace to you,
Richard
 
40.png
Richard_Hurtz:
Secondly, it is a matter of fact that Catholic theology maintains that individuals CAN lose their salvation - so I’m at a loss to understand your point about not losing the redemption that Christ bought on the cross.
I’m not sure if you understand the Catholic difference between salvation and redemption. We can not loose our redemption but we can loose our salvation.
“To deny the assurance of salvation would be to deny Christ’s perfect redemption,” argues Ewin, and this is something he can say only because he confuses the redemption that Christ accomplished for us objectively with our individual appropriation of that redemption. The truth is that in one sense we are all redeemed by Christ’s death on the cross—Christians, Jews, Muslims, even animists in the darkest forests (1 Tim. 2:6, 4:10, 1 John 2:2)—but our individual appropriation of what Christ provided is contingent on our response.
 
40.png
Maranatha:
Do you believe in the WWII Holocaust (Shoah)? Do you believe we landed a man on the moon?
First of all, what I believe is not the point. The historical consensus is the point. Neither in my own mind nor in the consensus of historians is there any doubt about the two events you mentioned. There is no reasonable doubt about the existence of Jesus and the fact he was crucified either (though a little more than for the two events you cite). But when it comes to many of the specific narratives of the NT, there is far more doubt among historians–and for good reason.

The Shoah and the moon landing have multiple independent eyewitness attestations–almost too many to count. The events of Jesus’ life have no attestations that are generally accepted as being by eyewitnesses. We have Paul’s brief references, which don’t claim to belong to an eyewitness but do cite a number of eyewitnesses some of whom are allegedly living. This is pretty much universally agreed to be the earliest reference to Jesus extant. Then we have Mark’s account, which traditionally is regarded as being a second-hand account derived from Peter–of course most modern scholars would doubt even this. The vast majority of scholars think that Matthew came after Mark and used his account, which means that Matthew is not an eyewitness. (If one takes the minority position that Matthew was written first, there’s a bit more basis for seeing him as an eyewitness.) Luke is clearly not an eyewitness and uses Mark and probably Matthew. John claims to be based on an eyewitness account but many, probably most scholars would doubt this, though there seems to be a growing consensus that John does preserve some historical material.

Non-Christian sources show no signs of being independent of the Christian accounts, with the possible exception of Josephus. But even a conservative scholar like F.F. Bruce admits that Josephus’s account has been interpolated by Christians.

I’m not as skeptical as this summary makes me sound. I’m simply repeating what most mainstream NT scholars in the academic guild would say. There’s certainly no comparison between the sources for Jesus’ life and the vast quantity of documentation for the modern events to which you refer.
Should we use the same standard of proof for the events in Palestine in the first century, as we use for all other history?
As believers, no. We are quite justified in placing more credence in the NT accounts than we would place in other accounts. But the argument assumes a non-believing (or rather neutral) position to start.

I know that’s not what you meant. You’re suggesting that secular scholars are more skeptical about the NT events than about other events–and in many cases that’s true. But in that case what account is one to use to base this alleged proof of the Bible’s “inerrancy”? Clearly one can’t simply use Christian sources, because that presupposes from the start what one sets out to prove. For all their faults, one must rely on the consensus of credentialed scholars, believing and nonbelieving. There is no alternative that I can see (if one is trying to make an argument that doesn’t rest on Christian faith to start with).

Furthermore, there is good reason to be more skeptical of NT accounts than of many other events. Most modern people, when reading pagan accounts that include the miraculous (such as stories of portents which abound in Greek and Roman history), dismiss the miraculous element insofar as it can’t be rationalized. Generally historians who include the miraculous are treated as automatically less reliable than those who always find a natural explanation for everything (this is one of the grounds on which Herodotus is usually considered inferior to Thucydides). So it’s not necessarily anti-Christian bias that leads secular historians to dismiss the NT accounts–which abound in miracles.

Necessarily, an account that challenges our view of the world must meet a higher standard of proof than one that confirms it. A narrative describing a great general who led armies to conquer territory does not say anything that we don’t find in many other accounts throughout history–though of course the specifics are different. But an account of a virgin birth or a resurrection from the dead challenges our normal assumptions about the sort of things that happen. It’s quite right for secular people to be somewhat more skeptical of such accounts. I would be too if I did not already accept the truth of Christianity. Wouldn’t you? If you were studying Indian history, would you really treat accounts of the miraculous birth of the Buddha in the same way you’d treat accounts of some Indian king who conquered territory?

Edwin
 
Daniel Marsh:
Those questions show a serious lack of understanding of inerrancy. Protestants who claim the scriptures are inerrant only do so for the orginals ( which we do not have ). And, only some King James Only people go as far as claim their translation to be inspired. No protestant otherwise, even thinks any translation is inerrant. Most if not all them questions are simply strawmen without legs.

I don’t think you’ve understood my post​

 
Daniel Marsh:
What’s dan brown have to do with my question?

I need to print this thread out to follow it. How many pages would such a print out be?

At a guess, about 12 to 14 posts a page.​

What you might do, is copy and paste everything you want to print on to a WordPad page; then, look at the page in “Preview”.

Hope that helps 🙂 ##
 
40.png
Maranatha:
We were discussing point number one (1) on post #4. From you post above, it seems that we can agree on point #1 and move on to point #2.

Without disparaging one scholar or another, we can weigh the validity of their work, examine the evidence each brings to the table and exercise our free will to decide which seems closer to the truth.

Since we haven’t moved beyond perhaps item #2, please remember that we use the Bible as a ancient text. We know it was written fairly close (compared to other ancient documents) to the events purported within

That depends on which book - sometimes on which passage - one is talking about. What is more, some books may have been centuries in the making - such as Psalms, to name but one.​

and we have original documents of people who used the Gospels and Scripture while they were still fresh and undisputed.

Not really - copies of them, at who knows how many removes from the originals in each case, but nothing closer. And mere proximity in time to the making of a document is no guarantee of accuracy; as introductions to textual criticism of the NT (say) explain - such as the truly excellent introduction by Bruce Metzger, which can be recommended to anyone interested in the transmission of the NT texts​

 
40.png
MrS:
So what was Jesus referring to when He referenced “The Chair of Moses” ?

Rahner is entirely correct on this matter - the OT religion of Israel and Judah was not that kind of religion: it was cultic, like every other ANE religion. It had prophets, for a while, like some other ANE religions - but it was not concerned with right doctrine, still less with infallibility in dogma. The very notion of a body of doctrines is a much later development.​

The chair of Peter seems to be a Christian adaptation of the seat of one of the Roman magistrates - that being a sign of authority.

medievalwood.org/charles/foldstool.html

cf. with: catholicforum.com/Saints/ncd03212.htm

penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Sella.html

As for the remark attributed to Jesus, it could perfectly well have been intended sarcastically - there is no way of knowing what Jesus meant by it. ##
 
40.png
JSmitty2005:
Rahner is a liberal modernist heretic.

Calling names is no disproof of what someone says - even if he were, that does not mean that he is in error here. His (perfectly accurate) observation is not a denial of infallibility in the Church, FWIW.​

40.png
Contarini:
Furthermore, there is good reason to be more skeptical of NT accounts than of many other events. Most modern people, when reading pagan accounts that include the miraculous (such as stories of portents which abound in Greek and Roman history), dismiss the miraculous element insofar as it can’t be rationalized. Generally historians who include the miraculous are treated as automatically less reliable than those who always find a natural explanation for everything (this is one of the grounds on which Herodotus is usually considered inferior to Thucydides). So it’s not necessarily anti-Christian bias that leads secular historians to dismiss the NT accounts–which abound in miracles.

Necessarily, an account that challenges our view of the world must meet a higher standard of proof than one that confirms it. A narrative describing a great general who led armies to conquer territory does not say anything that we don’t find in many other accounts throughout history–though of course the specifics are different. But an account of a virgin birth or a resurrection from the dead challenges our normal assumptions about the sort of things that happen. It’s quite right for secular people to be somewhat more skeptical of such accounts. I would be too if I did not already accept the truth of Christianity. Wouldn’t you? If you were studying Indian history, would you really treat accounts of the miraculous birth of the Buddha in the same way you’d treat accounts of some Indian king who conquered territory?

Edwin

Is there anything to prevent a Christian seeing the history of (say) Rome as in some sense a “sacred history” - as Dante saw it, in fact ? For him, Aeneas was as chosen as Abraham or St.Paul. It is at least remarkable that Rome survived the war against Hannibal and the troubles of the first century BC and expanded in the way it did.​

Roman history has its miracles, deliverances, and apparitions no less than that in the OT - it’s hard to see any significant difference between the being mentioned in Joshua 5.14, and the apparition of the Dioscuri at the battle of Lake Regillus in 499 BC. What is to prevent the history of Rome being as truly a record of God’s saving acts as the history of Israel ? ##
 
Michael,

I tend to agree with you, BTW. I’m simply making the point that secular historians are understandably skeptical about any text including the miraculous, whether or not it’s Christian.

I don’t take the view that one should treat all non-Christian texts of this kind with secularist suspicion. C. S. Lewis convinced me in *Surprised by Joy *that this is a horrible mistake (he says that this is one of the main reasons he lost his faith). That wasn’t my point at all. But I am in general more skeptical of supernatural accounts than of others.

Edwin
 
Gottle of Geer said:
## Calling names is no disproof of what someone says

I wasn’t calling names nor trying to disprove anything…just stating a simple fact. 😉
 
40.png
Contarini:
Michael,

I tend to agree with you, BTW. I’m simply making the point that secular historians are understandably skeptical about any text including the miraculous, whether or not it’s Christian.

I don’t take the view that one should treat all non-Christian texts of this kind with secularist suspicion. C. S. Lewis convinced me in *Surprised by Joy *that this is a horrible mistake (he says that this is one of the main reasons he lost his faith). That wasn’t my point at all. But I am in general more skeptical of supernatural accounts than of others.

Edwin

I suspect that we see eye to eye entirely then. 🙂

 
40.png
Contarini:
First of all, what I believe is not the point. The historical consensus is the point. Neither in my own mind nor in the consensus of historians is there any doubt about the two events you mentioned. There is no reasonable doubt about the existence of Jesus and the fact he was crucified either (though a little more than for the two events you cite). But when it comes to many of the specific narratives of the NT, there is far more doubt among historians–and for good reason.
The Two example events are much more recent. Since they already have their dissenters who try to construct their own proof, the credibility of these historical events will only become more uncertain as centuries pass.

Some people hold to the philosophy that everything that is real can be proven by science. Since this philosophy can’t be scientifically proven or disproven it is a bias that is as strong or stronger than the bias that faithful Christians hold.
The Shoah and the moon landing have multiple independent eyewitness attestations–almost too many to count. The events of Jesus’ life have no attestations that are generally accepted as being by eyewitnesses. We have Paul’s brief references, which don’t claim to belong to an eyewitness but do cite a number of eyewitnesses some of whom are allegedly living. This is pretty much universally agreed to be the earliest reference to Jesus extant. Then we have Mark’s account, which traditionally is regarded as being a second-hand account derived from Peter–of course most modern scholars would doubt even this. The vast majority of scholars think that Matthew came after Mark and used his account, which means that Matthew is not an eyewitness. (If one takes the minority position that Matthew was written first, there’s a bit more basis for seeing him as an eyewitness.) Luke is clearly not an eyewitness and uses Mark and probably Matthew. John claims to be based on an eyewitness account but many, probably most scholars would doubt this, though there seems to be a growing consensus that John does preserve some historical material.
You succinctly outlined the belief that Mark’s Gospel as written first. What you didn’t mention is that this theory is solely based on literary analysis and disregards all extra-Biblical historical evidence. This theory holds circular reasoning. Since this analysis is “scientific” it is more credible then the historical evidence. The problem is there is just as good literary analysis that also fits the historical data.

The history of this theory shows it was created by people held a definite bias against the Christian faith and they were able to convenience even some Christian scholars.

Science is ideally free of bias but Scientists are human and do not always live up to this ideal. Recently, a study was published that overturned the prevailing scientific beliefs that a low fat diet will help avoid latter medical problems. Scientists were “surprised and disappointed” at the findings. They went as far as to say they still believed that people should not abandon their low fat diets because “scientists” still believed them to be beneficial.

If I am skeptical of the “Mark’s Gospel was first” theory, I believe I have good scientific and historical grounds. An increasing number of scholars agree with my position.
Non-Christian sources show no signs of being independent of the Christian accounts, with the possible exception of Josephus. But even a conservative scholar like F.F. Bruce admits that Josephus’s account has been interpolated by Christians.
I’m not as skeptical as this summary makes me sound. I’m simply repeating what most mainstream NT scholars in the academic guild would say. There’s certainly no comparison between the sources for Jesus’ life and the vast quantity of documentation for the modern events to which you refer.
As believers, no. We are quite justified in placing more credence in the NT accounts than we would place in other accounts. But the argument assumes a non-believing (or rather neutral) position to start.
I disagree. I’m also a very skeptical person by nature. I started from a natural or negative view of the data and I have to conclude in the historicity of Catholicism.

(cont.)
 
I know that’s not what you meant. You’re suggesting that secular scholars are more skeptical about the NT events than about other events–and in many cases that’s true. But in that case what account is one to use to base this alleged proof of the Bible’s “inerrancy”?
At this point, I havn’t made any claims about the Bible’s inerrancy. I believe the Bible’s inerrancy can only be believed logically if you believe the Catholic Church is an authoritative source. For the CC to be authoritative, it must be the Church founded by God. For it to be the Church founded by God, we must prove from history that Christ was resurrected and founded a Church and that church is the CC.
Clearly one can’t simply use Christian sources, because that presupposes from the start what one sets out to prove. For all their faults, one must rely on the consensus of credentialed scholars, believing and nonbelieving. There is no alternative that I can see (if one is trying to make an argument that doesn’t rest on Christian faith to start with).
I believe we can accept the work of modern scholars with a skeptical eye. We can read their work and the work of those who have differing opinions and come to the best conclusion on what the truth is by accepting the arguments that fit the evidence the best. If the evidence contradicts our current best scholars then I’m not afraid to say their wrong (especially if an increasing number of scholars agree with me.)
Furthermore, there is good reason to be more skeptical of NT accounts than of many other events. Most modern people, when reading pagan accounts that include the miraculous (such as stories of portents which abound in Greek and Roman history), dismiss the miraculous element insofar as it can’t be rationalized. Generally historians who include the miraculous are treated as automatically less reliable than those who always find a natural explanation for everything (this is one of the grounds on which Herodotus is usually considered inferior to Thucydides). So it’s not necessarily anti-Christian bias that leads secular historians to dismiss the NT accounts–which abound in miracles.

Necessarily, an account that challenges our view of the world must meet a higher standard of proof than one that confirms it. A narrative describing a great general who led armies to conquer territory does not say anything that we don’t find in many other accounts throughout history–though of course the specifics are different. But an account of a virgin birth or a resurrection from the dead challenges our normal assumptions about the sort of things that happen. It’s quite right for secular people to be somewhat more skeptical of such accounts. I would be too if I did not already accept the truth of Christianity. Wouldn’t you? If you were studying Indian history, would you really treat accounts of the miraculous birth of the Buddha in the same way you’d treat accounts of some Indian king who conquered territory?

Edwin
The only real reason for not believing the Gospels are accurate is the supernatural content. If you need to hold the Gospels up to a much higher level of proof then other ancient events, I have good news (no pun intended http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ) . The evidence for their historicity is much greater then any other ancient event.
 
Edwin, Michael, et al.

Please read and comment on the full article Evidence for the Resurrection of Christ

We believe Christ’s resurrection can be proved with at least as much certainty as any universally believed and well-documented event in ancient history. To prove this, we do not need to presuppose anything controversial (e.g. that miracles happen). But the skeptic must also not presuppose anything (e.g. that they do not). We do not need to presuppose that the New Testament is infallible, or divinely inspired or even true. We do not need to presuppose that there really was an empty tomb or post-resurrection appearances, as recorded. We need to presuppose only two things, both of which are hard data, empirical data, which no one denies: The existence of the New Testament texts as we have them, and the existence (but not necessarily the truth) of the Christian religion as we find it today.
 
40.png
Maranatha:
The only real reason for not believing the Gospels are accurate is the supernatural content.
This is rather irrelevant on several counts:

  1. *]The supernatural content is the essence of the issue and it is outside of history (in the realm of faith). The supernatural content is all that really matters.
    *]How can something outside of history be “accurate” when there is no way to measure or determine the accuracy.
    *]The writers of the gospels were already believers, not unbiased news observers (as if there was ever any such thing). This is reason enough to be skeptical about their claims.
    If you need to hold the Gospels up to a much higher level of proof then other ancient events, I have good news (no pun intended http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ) . The evidence for their historicity is much greater then any other ancient event.
    Yes, the evidence for anything related to *history *may be much greater but the evidence related to non-historical events (things such as the supernatural which require faith) are non-existant. You can’t pretend that history and faith relate to the same measuring stick.
 
40.png
Maranatha:
We need to presuppose only two things, both of which are hard data, empirical data, which no one denies: The existence of the New Testament texts as we have them, and the existence (but not necessarily the truth) of the Christian religion as we find it today.
How can you possibly presuppose that “hard data, empirical data, which no one denies” is in any way related to the content of the New Testament texts as we have them, or to the existence of the Christian religion? You are way beyond comparing apples to oranges - comparing things that really have nothing to do with each other.
 
40.png
patg:
This is rather irrelevant on several counts:

  1. *]The supernatural content is the essence of the issue and it is outside of history (in the realm of faith). The supernatural content is all that really matters.
    *]How can something outside of history be “accurate” when there is no way to measure or determine the accuracy.
    *]The writers of the gospels were already believers, not unbiased news observers (as if there was ever any such thing). This is reason enough to be skeptical about their claims.

  1. I respectfully disagree. I have heard many arguments that try to raise objections which are not based on the supernatural content of the Gospels. These objects all have highly reasonable answers.
    Yes, the evidence for anything related to *history *may be much greater but the evidence related to non-historical events (things such as the supernatural which require faith) are non-existant. You can’t pretend that history and faith relate to the same measuring stick.
    I disagree again. Supernatural events, like the resurrection or the event at Fatima, are historical. History and faith are not in conflict.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top