How does one respond to the fairy, leprechaun unicorn, etc. comparisons?

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Ddarko, I’d be interested to read whatever comments you may have on me showing the circularity of your main argument:
ddarko;7205615:
I am just going to address you one last time because I really hope you can learn something.

The moral argument is as follows
  1. If God does not exists, objective morality does not exists
  2. Objective morality exists
  3. Therefore God exists
Now there might be other things that you would want to validly argue about but if you see circular logic here, you get a FAIL in your logic.
This argument wouldn’t work because if morality was “god’s” nature, and god did not exist, number two would be wrong. If something, such as morality (“Morality is God’s nature”, post 191), is defined as the nature of a being that doesn’t exist, then it doesn’t exist.
Thus, number two is only correct if “god” exists. This would be circular logic because the conclusion “god exists” is also a premise, which is the very definition of circular reasoning. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

In other words, I could say:
1 If unicorns don’t exist, “unicorness” doesn’t exist
2 “unicorness” does exist
3 therefore unicorns exist

With how you’ve defined “morality” as “god’s” nature, this “logic” regarding the existence of unicorns is just as logical as what you presented.
Ddarko, you were using this circular argument the entire time. You failed to see the circularity of your position because you failed to consider the consequences of the way you defined “morality”. I tried to point this out to you many times, indicating that your position is circular, “morality” is an invention (which doesn’t diminish it’s importance), and tried to get you to reflect on what you meant by this word which you were throwing around. Instead of answering my questions right away, you arrogantly said “you’re stupid”, when in fact your underlying reasoning, when considering what you meant by “morality” (“Morality is God’s nature”, post 191) was circular all along.

I mention your arrogance because I’m sick of theists saying that people who don’t agree with them (atheists) are arrogant. Sure, many individuals who do believe in a god and many individuals who don’t believe in a god are arrogant. However, it’s an extreme to say, “those who don’t believe in god (who is pro-slavery, pro-infanticide, and in favor of fathers selling their daughters as sex slaves) are arrogant and are going to be tortured forever in hell.”
 
I have subjective evidence of God Most High the Holy Trinity. “Because Jesus Christ lives, I live.” I am proof of my God. His word abides in me.
So you’re saying the fact that you exist means Yahweh exists, because you couldn’t have come to exist without Yahweh (or some other god) creating you. Am I interpreting you correctly?

If I am understanding you correctly, it’s an argument from ignorance, a false dichotomy.
What people look for, they find. I have found much evidence of God, to suit me.
I’ve looked for evidence for god and didn’t find any. Would you mind sharing the evidence you have of god?
TruthSeeker60;7208957:
Define “good”.

If one defines “good” in such a way that it’s very definition is tied to god, then god is good even if he kills babies (1 Sam 15:3, Duet 20:16, Exodus 12:29, Joshua 10:28-43), allows fathers to sell their daughters as sex slaves (Exodus 21:7-11), and forces raped women to marry the rapist (Deuteronomy 22:28-29).
That which gives life and true hope, loves and is faithful is good.
There are many places in the Bible where Yahweh took away life and hope and did many things that would be the antithesis of love.
Your tactic of shot gunning many pellets of data neither dissuades, persuades nor entraps me. I have already stated, you have taken so much time and effort to convince yourself that there’s no God that I won’t attempt to penetrate your mental defenses.
You’re entitled to your opinions and questions.
I will respond to you as I respond to both Satan and my own base nature: I DO NOT QUESTION GOD. I will question all else and put my skepticism to anything but God
So you claim that I have mental defenses in place to hold me from changing my position, but yet you emphatically state that you won’t question god! I don’t intend to sound mean by saying this, but are you certain that I have a mental defense and you don’t? It seems a little like projection (a defense mechanism). I mean, you basically said that considering the idea that god doesn’t exist is absolutely off-limits, which seems like a major mental defense.

It’s only been a matter of months that I’ve been an atheist. I obviously didn’t have a mental defense against theism while I was a theist (or else I wouldn’t have been a theist). I basically came to believe there was no god because I was trying to do research to fulfill the obligation mentioned in 1 Peter 3:15. This research didn’t cause me to develop mental defenses against theism. If I didn’t have defense mechanisms against theism while a theist, and didn’t develop any since, then I don’t have any defense mechanisms against theism now.
For I have seen the trap that you and other skeptics have fallen into, so I’m not going there.
What trap do you think I’ve fallen into?
God may well love you, but I don’t love you enough to risk my soul to save yours.
How would questioning god be risking your soul? If god is good (That which gives life and true hope, loves and is faithful is good) and omni-benevolent, he wouldn’t torture you after you die for merely incorrectly coming to the conclusion that he doesn’t exist. In other words, an omni-benevolent being wouldn’t punish someone for forming his/her own conscience without bias.
If you can’t appreciate who Jesus Christ is and what He’s done to save us all, then in no way will you appreciate what I have to offer.
How do you know that Jesus died and rose from the dead?
I will now answer all your remaining questions with one of my own: why should I waste my time spelling all this out to you, when all you well may want is to subdue me with your questions?
Because if god exists, I would want to know. I haven’t found evidence of god’s existence. You claim that god does exist, so I’d like to know if you have any evidence I don’t. Thus, I’ve asked you some of the many questions that would need to be answered before belief in Yahweh is justified.

So you just won’t really answer them. I’ll assume that means you don’t know how to answer them in such a way that justifies belief in Yahweh.
You offer no conversation. What you offer, seems to me, is like a hostile attack of my savior. I will let Him answer you.
What’s wrong about presenting evidence against what I think is a false belief. Would you consider it immoral for you to attack the god of Islam? Many people would take such an attack very personally.

Is this last part meant to be a threat (as in he’ll answer you when you die and go to hell)?
 
“We are made in the image of God” is an extraordinary statement which presupposes there is a god. What evidence do you have to back this up?
The proof that God exists is found in the existence of the created world. Only an omnipotent being could logically have the power to bring matter into existence,because of the absolute difference between nothing and existence. Nothingness could not have done it,because nothingness has no power to do anything.
So you think that those who are atheist are atheist because they’re in denial? Would you consider the possibility that someone may be an atheist because of lack of evidence of a god?
It isn’t for lack of evidence that people don’t believe in the existence of God,it’s for lack of logical insight.
Define “good”.
That which gives life and happiness. God is the source of life and happiness,so he defines “good”
If one defines “good” in such a way that it’s very definition is tied to god, then god is good even if he kills babies (1 Sam 15:3, Duet 20:16, Exodus 12:29, Joshua 10:28-43), allows fathers to sell their daughters as sex slaves (Exodus 21:7-11), and forces raped women to marry the rapist (Deuteronomy 22:28-29).
God is the creator and sustainer of persons in the first place,so he has a creator’s rights over persons. Whenever a person suffers or dies,however he dies,it is because God took his life away or allowed it to be taken from him. People suffer and die all the time,and Christians know that God,who is all-good,allows it to happen or causes it to happen,so the fact that the Bible acknowledges it should not be a cause for outrage for them. It would not make things better to reject God because of this,it would mean that we have no hope of being resurrected to eternal life. Since God is pure and eternal spirit he cannot be accused of being motivated by human emotions like malice or cruelty when he punishes people.
That’s a barbaric way to deal with one’s enemies. If you had the power to have someone who hates you tortured forever, would you do it?
Barbarism has to do with human incivility,not with divine justice. People who despise God and do not repent are tortured forever because they have rejected life and delight with God,who is the source of all good,and have preferred excommunication from him,which is torture and death.
 
I’ve found the law of Moses which states when slaves are to be set free:
Exodus 21, 1 -11:
“1. These are the judgments which thou shalt set before them. 2. If thou buy a Hebrew servant, six years shall he serve thee in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. 3. With what rainment he came in, with the like let him go out; if having a wife, his wife also shall go out with him.” (this next is what I remembered wrong) “4. But if his master gave him a wife, and she hath borne sons and daughters; the woman and her children shall be her master’s; but he himself shall go out with his rainment. 5. And if the servant shall say: I love my master and my wife and children, I will not go out free’; 6. His master shall bring him to…and he shall be set to the door and the posts, and he shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall be his servant for ever. 7. And if any man sell his daughter to be a servant, she shall not go out as bondwomen are wont to go out. 8. If she displeases the eye of her master to whom she was delivered, he shall let her go; but he shall have no power to sell her to a foreign nation, if he despise her. 9. But if he hath betrothed her to his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters. 10. And if he take another wife for him, he shall provide her a marriage, and rainment, neither shall he refuse the price of her chastity. 11. If he do not these three things, she shall go out free without money.”

As I said in my previous post, this law shows that God did not approve of slavery, because if He did, He would not have given that law to Moses.
Note not only that this only applies to Hebrew slaves – note also that it also contains a loophole that allows a slave master to trick the slave into being his property forever: it says that the master may give him a wife and that the wife and children become the master’s property as well. When the slave’s time is up, the slave can choose to leave, but only by abandoning his wife and children. If he doesn’t want to leave his wife and children, he has to vow to be property forever and ever.

This is some seriously sick stuff.
 
And when you use a statement that says you can use good without a God you have to use proof without the Bible. You have to propose something else in a demonstration if you are to deny something. If you deny something, you have to propose something else.
I thought I had made it clear already. I use the word “good” to denote things that are generally beneficial to the individual and to society, in the context of the shared goals and values of society.

Under this definition, certain acts might be debatable as “good” or not, but that debate is not unlimited. The outlawing of murder, for example, is clearly good in this context because it promotes a common goal shared by just about everyone in society.

There is no need to appeal to supernatural beings to decide whether or not an action is good.
You just condemned Darth Vader and the hypothetical worship of him. Come on. Seriously, if that is not absurd I have no clue what is.
Have you never taken a literature course? People pass judgment on fictional characters all the time. Read a few movie reviews, or talk about some movies with your friends, and you will probably find people judging the actions of characters that aren’t real.

“Wow! He was so stupid to go into that building alone!” someone might say when commenting on a film.

Would you seriously object, “What?! He’s fictional! How could you call him stupid!”?
You are ever so subtly saying that God does not exist in your Darth Vader analogy. You see, that is where you need proof
Okay – there is an equal amount of sufficient evidence for the existence of Darth Vader and the existence of any god ever thought up by human beings.
 
Okay, then. I just wanted to confirm.

So, then, when you read a passage like Leviticus 25 that I quoted above – in which your god explicitly says that the Israelites can own other human beings as property and pass them on to their descendants like other pieces of property – you think that this is a good thing that your god is doing?

I just want to be clear. If you do think this, please reply to this post with the sentence, “I think that slavery is a good thing when God endorses it, as he does in Leviticus 25.”

I’m pretty sure that this is your position, as shocking and horrifying as it is. I just want to be clear on this.
Ddarko, I just wanted to remind you of this post. I would like some clarification on this point – do you think that slavery is a good thing when God endorses it, as he does in Leviticus 25?

If you do, please just respond and say, “I think that slavery is a good thing when God endorses it, as he does in Leviticus 25.” I’d just like your position to be very clear.

If you think that slavery is a bad thing – even when God endorses it – please explain why you think that is. Thanks.
 
Note not only that this only applies to Hebrew slaves – note also that it also contains a loophole that allows a slave master to trick the slave into being his property forever: it says that the master may give him a wife and that the wife and children become the master’s property as well. When the slave’s time is up, the slave can choose to leave, but only by abandoning his wife and children. If he doesn’t want to leave his wife and children, he has to vow to be property forever and ever.

This is some seriously sick stuff.
The Hebrews did not think that those rules were sick,and they were the culture that received the moral commandments of God,from which our modern ideas of fundamental rights come. Those rules were reasonable,given the circumstances of culture at that time. If we take it as a given that all people have a right to be free,it is made easy by the existence of our centralized governments,which make it illegal to own slaves. If our governments were to collapse,suddenly the idea that all persons must be free would lose its force,because there would no longer be a higher authority on earth that could enforce the idea and ensure everyone’s rights. Slavery would become more of a possibility,for lack of an over-arching rule of law,and would be seen as an allowable practice for dealing with people without means of support,homeless people,criminals,and prisoners of war. We already tolerate a large population of illegal immigrants who are hired as cheap labor and who do not have legal rights,and we are not much outraged at the human trafficking and slavery that is currently going on. Slavery is more offensive to us when we read about it in history books than when we hear about present-day instances of it.
 
The Hebrews did not think that those rules were sick,and they were the culture that received the moral commandments of God,from which our modern ideas of fundamental rights come. Those rules were reasonable,given the circumstances of culture at that time. If we take it as a given that all people have a right to be free,it is made easy by the existence of our centralized governments,which make it illegal to own slaves. If our governments were to collapse,suddenly the idea that all persons must be free would lose its force,because there would no longer be a higher authority on earth that could enforce the idea and ensure everyone’s rights. Slavery would become more of a possibility,for lack of an over-arching rule of law,and would be seen as an allowable practice for dealing with people without means of support,homeless people,criminals,and prisoners of war. We already tolerate a large population of illegal immigrants who are hired as cheap labor and who do not have legal rights,and we are not much outraged at the human trafficking and slavery that is currently going on. Slavery is more offensive to us when we read about it in history books than when we hear about present-day instances of it.
The entire capitalist system is based on the principle that most people work so that others don’t have to work! Before money was invented everyone - except those in power - had to produce goods or services to survive. Now all those who inherit wealth need to do is to ensure that no one else obtains it! So much for “our modern ideas of fundamental rights”…
 
Those rules [of slavery] were reasonable,given the circumstances of culture at that time.
You’re missing the point.

Theists claim that this book was authored by the source of all good in the world, the timeless “objective good” that we’re supposedly all bound to.

So, if your premise is true, we might rightly expect this being to deliver messages of moral truths that completely contradict the backwards culture of a nomadic desert tribe. We would expect, if this book is authored by the source of all good, that it would contain, for example, a denunciation of slavery, an unequivocal statement that it is wrong for one human being to own another human being.

But we don’t find such a statement, do we? No, what do we find instead? We find rules for owning slaves that come directly from the mouth of God, we find injunctions for slaves to obey their masters, and we even get a story of a people freed from slavery, but not because slavery is wrong – because they’re his favorite people! (After freeing them from slavery, this god goes right on to give them rules for owning their own slaves, so clearly slavery itself was never the problem).

Gee, this source of all good is turning out to be quite the moral relativist, isn’t he? It’s almost as if…under this version of theism, morality is completely subject to a being’s arbitrary whims.

This god clearly didn’t have a big problem with slavery at one point in time, so apparently, under this version of theism, morality can and does change depending on this being’s whims, the social context, and all sorts of other things. Some “objective morality,” eh?

So let me hear a theist say it. Respond to this post and tell me that slavery is a good thing when the god of the Bible endorses it. I want to see those words. Just so we’re all clear.

And if you don’t think slavery is a good thing – even if the god of the Bible endorses it – I want to see you say that and see your argument for it. Don’t link me to apologetic web sites – I’m interested in a discussion here. Tell me what argument you find compelling on those sites and justify it on rational grounds.

I’ll be very frank with you – if you worship a being who thinks – or who ever thought – that it’s okay for one human being to own another, then I want nothing to do with him even if you could somehow demonstrate that he exists. I’ll take my chances thinking for myself and deciding that slavery is abominable, no matter what some supernatural might-makes-right guy has to say about it.
 
Theists claim that this book was authored by the source of all good in the world, the timeless “objective good” that we’re supposedly all bound to. So, if your premise is true, we might rightly expect this being to deliver messages of moral truths that completely contradict the backwards culture of a nomadic desert tribe. We would expect, if this book is authored by the source of all good, that it would contain, for example, a denunciation of slavery, an unequivocal statement that it is wrong for one human being to own another human being.
For a start not all theists believe in the Bible and only fundamentalists believe every single word was dictated by God. Most Christians believe the authors were inspired to express fundamental truths - like the fact that God created everything - but they were not infallible. They had** a primitive concept **of a God who demanded animal sacrifice - which Jesus corrected: “I desire mercy, not sacrifice”. They were simple tribesmen who were not sufficiently advanced, either intellectually or morally or socially, to understand and accept the fullness of the divine commandment to love everyone, forgive your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. God works through human beings and knows our limitations. Jesus used parables because most people are not philosophers.
And if you don’t think slavery is a good thing – even if the god of the Bible endorses it – I want to see you say that and see your argument for it. Don’t link me to apologetic web sites – I’m interested in a discussion here. Tell me what argument you find compelling on those sites and justify it on rational grounds.
Slavery is evil because we all have rights to life, liberty and happiness. Those rights are based on the fact that life is a gift from God. If we exist for no reason or purpose it does not make sense to believe in the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity.** Accidents have no rights!**
 
The proof that God exists is found in the existence of the created world. Only an omnipotent being could logically have the power to bring matter into existence,because of the absolute difference between nothing and existence.
This is nothing more than a form of an argument from ignorance, a false dichotomy.

I don’t know, or claim to know, how the universe started. However, most of he weight of the universe is “nothing”. Nothing actually weighs something! Many cosmologist and physicists think that it’s impossible for there to be “nothingness”, because “nothingness” is unstable.

Why would a god be an explanation for the existence of the universe? What’s the essence of “god”? Theologians will say that one cannot understand what god is, but only what he is not. However, one cannot explain a mystery by a complete mystery.

Also, the unknowable is indistinguishable from the non-existent.
That which gives life and happiness. God is the source of life and happiness,so he defines “good”
Is god the antithesis of good, or evil, when he takes away life and happiness?
God is the creator and sustainer of persons in the first place,so he has a creator’s rights over persons.
So if you or I create a universe with humans, it would be OK for us to torture them?!
Barbarism has to do with human incivility,not with divine justice. People who despise God and do not repent are tortured forever because they have rejected life and delight with God,who is the source of all good,and have preferred excommunication from him,which is torture and death.
Wouldn’t it be more benevolent for god to make someone cease to exist completely than to torture them forever? Also, an omni-potent god could also keep them alive until they chose to embrace him.

Also, an omniscient god would know the future, and whether a person would accept him or not. God could simply prevent persons who would reject him from even being conceived. Why wouldn’t he?

If you had the ability, wouldn’t you prevent someone from suffering for all eternity?

Do you think atheist are going to go to hell for simply not thinking god exists?
The Hebrews did not think that those rules were sick,and they were the culture that received the moral commandments of God,from which our modern ideas of fundamental rights come. Those rules were reasonable,given the circumstances of culture at that time.
Like AntiTheist already said, one would expect a never-changing, omni-benevolent god to teach moral truths regardless of how perverse the culture is.

Also, even if Yahweh was making a compromise for the Israelites because of that cultural context, why would he tell them that they won’t be punished if they beat their slaves so badly that they die in a day (Exodus 21:20-21)? How is that reasonable in any context?
 
For a start not all theists believe in the Bible and only fundamentalists believe every single word was dictated by God.
Correction:

Your church claims inerrant with respect to historical facts. I guess you disagree with the interpretation of Providentissimus Deus that the editors of New American Bible have:

Note that it says, “in all its parts . . .] down to the most insignificant item.” Wouldn’t “in all its parts . . .] down to the most insignificant item” include when Jesus was born? I think so.

Providentissimus Deus indicates that everything in the Bible, even the most insignificant term, falls under inspiration:
The principles here laid down will apply to cognate sciences, and especially to History. . .] But it is absolutely wrong and forbidden, either to narrow inspiration to certain parts only of Holy Scripture, or to admit that the sacred writer has erred. For the system of those who, in order to rid themselves of these difficulties, do not hesitate to concede that divine inspiration regards the things of faith and morals, and nothing beyond, because (as they wrongly think) in a question of the truth or falsehood of a passage, we should consider not so much what God has said as the reason and purpose which He had in mind in saying it – this system cannot be tolerated. For all the books which the Church receives as sacred and canonical, are written wholly and entirely, with all their parts, at the dictation of the Holy Ghost; and so far is it from being possible that any error can co-exist with inspiration, that inspiration not only is essentially incompatible with error, but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true.
Providentissimus Deus 20

In other words, the Catholic Church teaches absolute innerancy of the Bible, as opposed to innerancy solely in matters of faith and morals.

vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_18111893_providentissimus-deus_en.html

Even if the Bible was only inerrant in matters of faith and morals, how would one know? I would expect a book that’s inerrant in matters of faith and morals to not contradict itself, even on matters not directly related to faith and morals. Even Providentissimus Deus aside, why would an omniscient god allow there to be any inaccuracies of any sort in a book he would make as a foundation for his religion?

Even disregarding this, why would an omnipotent god allow any discrepancies in his holy book? Why would the book that an omnipotent god authored have contradictory accounts of when that god was born? You’ve avoided answering this. If I wrote an autobiography, I wouldn’t say I was born in 1980, while saying elsewhere in that same autobiography that I was born in 1990. Surely, God could have made the writers of the gospels get basic facts like that right.

Wouldn’t it be convenient to attribute all the bad aspects of the bible to the human writers and attribute all the (few) good aspects of the Bible to your god.
If we exist for no reason or purpose it does not make sense to believe in the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity.
We don’t need to have been created by a god in order to have purpose for living.

It would make sense to hold the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity in order to create a better society for everyone.
 
Ddarko, I’m assuming that if you don’t respond in 24 hours that you’ve concluded that your argument for the existence of god is circular.
Ddarko, I’d be interested to read whatever comments you may have on me showing the circularity of your main argument:
ddarko;7205615:
I am just going to address you one last time because I really hope you can learn something.

The moral argument is as follows
  1. If God does not exists, objective morality does not exists
  2. Objective morality exists
  3. Therefore God exists
Now there might be other things that you would want to validly argue about but if you see circular logic here, you get a FAIL in your logic.
Ddarko, you were using this circular argument the entire time. You failed to see the circularity of your position because you failed to consider the consequences of the way you defined “morality”. I tried to point this out to you many times, indicating that your position is circular, “morality” is an invention (which doesn’t diminish it’s importance), and tried to get you to reflect on what you meant by this word which you were throwing around. Instead of answering my questions right away, you arrogantly said “you’re stupid”, when in fact your underlying reasoning, when considering what you meant by “morality” (“Morality is God’s nature”, post 191) was circular all along.

I mention your arrogance because I’m sick of theists saying that people who don’t agree with them (atheists) are arrogant. Sure, many individuals who do believe in a god and many individuals who don’t believe in a god are arrogant. However, it’s an extreme to say, “those who don’t believe in god (who is pro-slavery, pro-infanticide, and in favor of fathers selling their daughters as sex slaves) are arrogant and are going to be tortured forever in hell.”
I’m also waiting for you to respond to Ddarko:
Ddarko, I just wanted to remind you of this post. I would like some clarification on this point – do you think that slavery is a good thing when God endorses it, as he does in Leviticus 25?

If you do, please just respond and say, “I think that slavery is a good thing when God endorses it, as he does in Leviticus 25.” I’d just like your position to be very clear.

If you think that slavery is a bad thing – even when God endorses it – please explain why you think that is. Thanks.
 
You’re missing the point.

Theists claim that this book was authored by the source of all good in the world, the timeless “objective good” that we’re supposedly all bound to.

So, if your premise is true, we might rightly expect this being to deliver messages of moral truths that completely contradict the backwards culture of a nomadic desert tribe. We would expect, if this book is authored by the source of all good, that it would contain, for example, a denunciation of slavery, an unequivocal statement that it is wrong for one human being to own another human being.
God did give us moral truths,or commandments,such as “You shall love your neighbor as yourself”,as you well know. The reason why God did not condemn slavery as such is probably because the owning of a human being does not by itself amount to abuse of a human being. If it were,then purchasing a child for adoption or even having parental rights over a child must also be wrong. The outrage that modern people feel over the very idea of slavery has more to do with our idea of legal rights and our sensibilities than a real improvement in moral values.
But we don’t find such a statement, do we? No, what do we find instead? We find rules for owning slaves that come directly from the mouth of God, we find injunctions for slaves to obey their masters, and we even get a story of a people freed from slavery, but not because slavery is wrong – because they’re his favorite people!
God freed the Hebrews from slavery because they were suffering greatly and were calling out to him,and to demonstrate his power and salvation.
(After freeing them from slavery, this god goes right on to give them rules for owning their own slaves, so clearly slavery itself was never the problem).
Apparently not. It was the problem for middle-class Christians and humanitarians of the 18th and 19th centuries,who lived in societies that had developed to such refined civility and moral sensibility in regard to rights that it came to be seen as completely wrong.
Gee, this source of all good is turning out to be quite the moral relativist, isn’t he? It’s almost as if…under this version of theism, morality is completely subject to a being’s arbitrary whims.
This god clearly didn’t have a big problem with slavery at one point in time, so apparently, under this version of theism, morality can and does change depending on this being’s whims, the social context, and all sorts of other things. Some “objective morality,” eh?
The moral commandments themselves remain constant,regardless of the provisions that God made for slavery. The question of slavery is a matter determined by prudential judgement,not by the moral commandments themselves.
So let me hear a theist say it. Respond to this post and tell me that slavery is a good thing when the god of the Bible endorses it. I want to see those words. Just so we’re all clear.
And if you don’t think slavery is a good thing – even if the god of the Bible endorses it – I want to see you say that and see your argument for it. Don’t link me to apologetic web sites – I’m interested in a discussion here. Tell me what argument you find compelling on those sites and justify it on rational grounds.
Slavery is never good in itself,unless it is obedience to God.
I’ll be very frank with you – if you worship a being who thinks – or who ever thought – that it’s okay for one human being to own another, then I want nothing to do with him even if you could somehow demonstrate that he exists. I’ll take my chances thinking for myself and deciding that slavery is abominable, no matter what some supernatural might-makes-right guy has to say about it.
So you would reject your creator and savior,the source of all good,because he didn’t condemn the practice of people owning other people? Would you ever allow for the creator of the world to be greater than your own sensibilities?
 
For a start not all theists believe in the Bible and only fundamentalists believe every single word was dictated by God.
Claims** inerrancy**? Not literally with regard to the whole of the Old Testament - as you will realise quite soon.
I guess you disagree with the interpretation of Providentissimus Deus that the editors of New American Bible have:
Note that it says, “in all its parts . . .] down to the most insignificant item.” Wouldn’t “in all its parts . . .] down to the most insignificant item” include when Jesus was born? I think so.
Their ** interpretation **is not infallible!
Providentissimus Deus indicates that everything in the Bible, even the most insignificant term, falls under inspiration:
The principles here laid down will apply to cognate sciences, and especially to History. . .] But it is absolutely wrong and forbidden, either to narrow inspiration to certain parts only of Holy Scripture, or to admit that the sacred writer has erred. For the system of those who, in order to rid themselves of these difficulties, do not hesitate to concede that divine inspiration regards the things of faith and morals, and nothing beyond, because (as they wrongly think) in a question of the truth or falsehood of a passage, we should consider not so much what God has said as the reason and purpose which He had in mind in saying it – this system cannot be tolerated. For all the books which the Church receives as sacred and canonical, are written wholly and entirely, with all their parts, at the dictation of the Holy Ghost; and so far is it from being possible that any error can co-exist with inspiration, that inspiration not only is essentially incompatible with error, but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true.
Providentissimus Deus 20
In other words, the Catholic Church teaches absolute** innerancy **of the Bible, as opposed to **innerancy **solely in matters of faith and morals.
You’ve just proved human inerrancy is unattainable!

The doctrine of infallibility applies only to questions of faith and morals. It is obvious that the Catholic Church does not teach that every statement in the Old Testament is to be interpreted literally because** the account of Creation in Genesis conflicts with evolution - which the Church accepts**. Moreover even though Scripture is inspired by God there remains the problem of interpretation of certain texts - which is exacerbated by the fact - recognised by Pope Leo XIII - that copyists have made mistakes in the text of the Bible. There’s many a slip twixt inspiration and communication!
Even if the Bible was only inerrant in matters of faith and morals, how would one know? I would expect a book that’s inerrant in matters of faith and morals to not contradict itself, even on matters not directly related to faith and morals. Even Providentissimus Deus aside, why would an omniscient god allow there to be any inaccuracies of any sort in a book he would make as a foundation for his religion?
The fact that Jesus said He came to fulfil the Law implies that it was incomplete and imperfect. He declared that God does not want sacrifice but mercy. He revoked the belief in “eye for eye and a tooth for a tooth” with a simple command “Let you who have not sinned cast the first stone”. He upheld the Ten Commandments but took them further by telling us to love our enemies as well as our neighbours. It follows that the Old Testament cannot be understood except in the context of His teaching. The Father who cares for all His creatures is not the jealous God who sends plagues and holocausts.
Even disregarding this, why would an omnipotent god allow any discrepancies in his holy book? Why would the book that an omnipotent god authored have contradictory accounts of when that god was born? You’ve avoided answering this. If I wrote an autobiography, I wouldn’t say I was born in 1980, while saying elsewhere in that same autobiography that I was born in 1990. Surely, God could have made the writers of the gospels get basic facts like that right.
There are** no** accounts of the birth of a god. God was not born. The Son of God manifested Himself as a human being, born of a woman and crucified by men. Where are the contradictory accounts of **when **Jesus was born?
Wouldn’t it be convenient to attribute all the bad aspects of the bible to the human writers and attribute all the (few) good aspects of the Bible to your god.
Not convenient but logical - unless you errantly regard human beings as inerrant. 🙂
If we exist for no reason or purpose it does not make sense to believe in the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity.
We don’t need to have been created by a god in order to have purpose for living.
You mean we don’t need to have been created by a god in order to invent a purpose for living!
It would make sense to hold the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity in order to create a better society for everyone.
On what do you base those principles? And why should you be concerned about everyone if we are just strange freaks of nature who happen to exist for no reason or purpose?
 
Ok, TruthSeeker,

I’m in a better mettle tonight, than I was yesterday.

Please refer to your previous post # 241, top of page 17, to me, to see what I rebut. If I include your post in mine, it’s way over 6,000 characters.

You misinterpret me. I’m saying, if it weren’t for God Most HIgh the Holy Trinity, I would have died shortly after childbirth and several times after that. I weighed 3 1/2 pounds at birth and was in an incubator for three months. If I’d been born a century earlier, I would have died. If I’d been born in this century, I could have been thrown out as too much trouble, and died, the attitude that toward handicapped babies, that’s becoming prevalent nowadays. I believe that God works through people. Too many times in my life I could have died: night cab driver, night watchman and such; but God answering my faith in Him has spared me death several times.

One of my best friends is an atheist and my twin is an agnostic. We get along because I don’t preach at them and they don’t question my faith: that’s my freedom of choice, to believe the Holy Bible (which I consider documentation of God’s existence) and to believe the tradition of our Church.

Now, as far as God killing people. I say again, He is the resurrection. When He takes life, he will give it back on Resurrection Day. Humans can’t do that. That’s why it’s immoral for us to kill but not for Him. He can return what He takes, we can’t.

Yes, I have developed mental defenses to protect my faith. It’s worth living and dying for. Maybe your faith wasn’t worth that to you, but mine is, to me.
I Peter 3, 15: is a part of a greater exhortation. If you had practiced the whole passage, you would still be Christian. Maybe that’s your problem. Maybe you were a theist, instead of seeking a good relationship with your Creator.

Skeptics shred their own faith with too many questions. That’s a trap. I don’t let Satan nor his followers lead me into that trap. I claim again, there is good and evil in this world. There are many explanations for that. I accept the Christian explanation because I accept Jesus Christ and His followers.

I have been waiting for you to bring up God benevolence, again. I believe in an Omniscient, Omnipresent and Omnipotent God. These are His traditional attributes, when He is reverently spoken of. Nowhere, for 4,000 years, has God ever been called allbenevolent. He is compassionate. He is merciful. And these things are so wonderful because He can be wrathful. That’s a good part of His supernature. I love that butt kicking OT God, because He can slam down Satan and his minions. So, I will not do such a foolish thing as deeply insulting Him by saying He doesn’t exist, when I know better.

I know that Jesus died and rose from the death because I have documentation of anecdotal evidence that He did in both Biblical and secular tomes.

I have evidence that you have thrown out.
I have answered, from time to time, many questions from my atheist friend. But, not in consecutive days of sitting. That would have been abusive. Have you been subjected to continuous daily inquisitions about your faith?

No TruthSeeker, I have asked myself the questions necessary for my belief in God Most HIgh the Holy Trinity. I think you have been misled to raise a too high standard of questions, for your belief.

I have gone back to page 12 of this thread to your post # 166 and reread your questions. I have already answered two of them in other of my posts. I won’t repeat myself, here, for you.
But, as far as Psalm 137, 9 in the Challoner version of the Douay - Rheims Holy Bible, it’s Psalms 136, 9, where he blesses the one who takes the whore of Babylon’s children and dashes the infants against rocks, those were pure evil babies, through and through, even from their time in the womb.
In Duet 22, 28 & 29, of a rapist marrying his victim, is in the context of the way things were in the Bronze Age, not our age. In other than Hebrew culture, rapists were used to doing their thing and going their way, maybe even killing the girl, and not have to answer for it. That was all ok in non-Hebrew cultures. If you don’t read history and anthropological documentaries for yourself, don’t expect me to detour to teach you at this late date. Things were horrible, then.
Again, Duet 28, 53 prophecies in context of a larger passage that adults will have nothing else to eat, but their children. If they don’t change their ways. You left that part out, the option of changing their ways to be saved from their own iniquity of eating their children.
In my Challoner Douay-Rheims, the passage of Elisha and the boys and bears is in 4 Kings, 2, 23 and 24. What I see, is a gang of 42 youths badgering a man of God during the Bronze Age. To the best of my knowledge of gangs, Elisha was in peril for his life, from those 42 boys. Just because they taunted him…the first step of working themselves up to kill him.
I live in a neighborhood where people are killed for initiation into a gang. Don’t tell me about assuming what a gang of 42 boys can or cannot do.
God protected His man who believed in Him, nothing wrong with that.
So, there, I have answered all your questions, to my satisfaction. I don’t guarantee that my answers can come anywhere near satisfying your excessive questioning.

You have no evidence against my belief. All you have is evidence of your disbelief. Don’t expect me to see only what you can see, entrapped in the pit of skepticism. And, yes, it would be immoral for me to question the Almighty God of Islam, since He’s also the Almighty God of Judaism and Christianity. I do question the reliability of Mohamed, though. He was only a man.

No, my leaving you up to our Savior was a blessing, for in this life; not a threat about any afterlife. Because He says, “I have not come to condemn the world, but to save it.”
 
Note not only that this only applies to Hebrew slaves – note also that it also contains a loophole that allows a slave master to trick the slave into being his property forever: it says that the master may give him a wife and that the wife and children become the master’s property as well. When the slave’s time is up, the slave can choose to leave, but only by abandoning his wife and children. If he doesn’t want to leave his wife and children, he has to vow to be property forever and ever.

This is some seriously sick stuff.
Hi, AntiTheist,

Regarding an alien culture in our society’s values can produce sick results.

Why do you blame God for human nature gone awry? It’s humans’ fault to freely choose to keep their slaves. What I see is a loving God, working with barbaric cultures, to bring freedom to a society that has no concept of freedom. I see a loving God, working to let families stay together. Why should the slave holder loose his property, to do something so alien as freeing a slave? It’s miraculous to get the people of that time to even consider freeing one slave, much less a whole family.
 
If you had the ability, wouldn’t you prevent someone from suffering for all eternity?
“The fires of hell maybe made of the very love of God, experienced as torture by those who hate him: the very light of God’s truth, hated and fled from in vain by those who love darkness. Imagine a man in hell—no, a ghost—endlessly chasing his own shadow, as the light of God shines endlessly behind him. If he would only turn and face the light, he would be saved. But he refuses to—forever.” -Peter Kreeft

God does not “prevent” anyone from hating him, from not choosing him. Any more than you would “prevent” your spouse from choosing to love someone else. God’s love is enveloping all, but it is odious to some. That, sadly, is their torture.
Do you think atheist are going to go to hell for simply not thinking god exists?
Objectively speaking, Catholics cannot declare anyone to be destined for hell.

Subjectively, it would seem quite difficult for someone to accept the Divine Marriage proposal if he cannot even acknowledge that he has received it.
 
The reason why God did not condemn slavery as such is probably because the owning of a human being does not by itself amount to abuse of a human being.
Wow, really. Well, there we have it. You think that in some contexts, it’s ok for one human being to own another.

There are plenty of theists who hold to that position – slavery and other things like it are a-ok when God says so – but they often don’t admit it in public.

And these are usually the same theists who are critical of “moral relativism.” Yikes.
If it were [wrong to own another human being],then purchasing a child for adoption or even having parental rights over a child must also be wrong.
Parents don’t own children as property to be passed down like other pieces of property.

Look what your religion has you doing – it has you defending the concept of owning people.

Now look, if you want to believe that slavery is a-ok whenever sky daddy says so, then that’s your right to believe that. But I just want to make very clear to people what the stakes are here.
[Slavery] was the problem for middle-class Christians and humanitarians of the 18th and 19th centuries,who lived in societies that had developed to such refined civility and moral sensibility in regard to rights that it came to be seen as completely wrong.
Yes, precisely. They were opposed to slavery because of moral developments that had taken place.

The idea that society could develop morals, morals that are opposed to the Bronze age nonsense contained in “holy” books supposedly written by the “source of all good” should raise some very serious questions in your mind if you think about it a little bit.
The moral commandments themselves remain constant,regardless of the provisions that God made for slavery …]Slavery is never good in itself
These statements contradict one another. Either slavery is never good or it can be good (in which case a good god wouldn’t be giving instructions on the practice, including provisions for tricking people into becoming property forever and rules on how much you are allowed to beat them).

Which is it?
So you would reject your creator and savior,the source of all good,because he didn’t condemn the practice of people owning other people?
I would reject anyone as a moral authority of any kind who does not condemn the practice.
Would you ever allow for the creator of the world to be greater than your own sensibilities?
If he really does exist, and his idea of “the good” is that it’s ok for people to own other people, then he can keep his good. And if he wants to send me to hell for thinking that, then fine. Might doesn’t make right. If he does exist, I obviously can’t stop him from punishing me for exercising my own sense of decency, but I can take a stand against his tyranny.
 
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