How does one respond to the fairy, leprechaun unicorn, etc. comparisons?

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So you’re proposing that perhaps Yahweh metaphorically told the Israelites to invade, kill everyone including infants, several times?! :ehh: It doesn’t exactly seem like something that would be meant as a metaphor.
Nah. That’s not what I’m saying.

Please read the article. It won’t take you longer than it took me to watch the youtube video you cited.

Then you’ll see what I’m proposing. 👍
A better question is did non-Christians persons, as opposed to societies, figure it out earlier?
How 'bout you answer *my *question?
Wouldn’t societies have abolished slavery earlier if god explicitly condemned it?
LOL! See these examples of things that societies have not abolished, even if God explicitly condemned it:
  • abortion
  • adultery
  • fornication
  • artificial birth control
  • homosexuality
  • divorce and re-marriage
  • lying
  • cheating
  • stealing
  • coveting one’s neighbors
  • gossip
If Yahweh didn’t commend in Deuteronomy 22:28-29 that raped women had to marry the rapist, then the Bible incorrectly stated that he did (and there is no reasonable way that could be interpreted as metaphorical).
Please read the article. It takes 5 minutes.
On a matter of what he believed, a statement from a family member, a contemporary of him, is sufficient to justify belief that Pat Tillman was an atheist. Are there any contemporary writings of Jesus? Remember, the gospels were written decades after the alleged death of Jesus (and we only have copies of copies of those with interpolation).
So the disciples lied? Why would they do that?
 
I wasn’t saying you said that. Perhaps a better way to word the question would have been “since you don’t consider your Catholic religion to hinge on the Bible in some way, what is it based on?”
Again, TruthSeeker, I did not say it doesn’t hinge “in some way” on the Bible.

It’s just not the source. The source is Jesus.

And that’s how we know whether there are any theological errors in the Bible. The CC discerned the over 400 "Christian texts’ to determine which of those texts proclaimed the Gospel.
So you’re saying your religion is based off of sacred tradition. Is that correct?
Nope.

You gave an excellent quote from Dei Verbum. That’s what I believe!
 
So, did Pat Tillman do a bad thing when he ended his life?
Haha that was a good one 👍

Although I am sure Truthseeker60 is in the process of preparing one of his illogical comeback posts to it lol.

God Bless 🙂
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bschneid
I went over the article and it was exactly what I expected. They compared America, a mostly religious nation, to that of England, an extremely secular nation.
It presented more than just that. There are many other studies I’ve seen in the past with results consistent with the ones of this study. Have you seen any studies which indicate the opposite?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bschneid
On the issue of morality I believe in natural law. This is an innate recognition of “good” and “bad” that is universal to all humans. I use the Bible for guidance since our society perverts the norms for good and evil.
This isn’t defining morality, good, and bad (if that’s what you were attempting to do).
Also, you would need to define natural law.
This may seem ridiculous, but for one to claim that atheists have no objective morality, one has to first define the terms that he/she uses
You do not need to look at another survey just look at Germany. A mostly religious nation does not seem to be having these problems.

Natural law is not something found in a book. However these morals coincide with the teachings in the Bible and the Church. If you want to research try the ten commandments for starters.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law
 
Nah. That’s not what I’m saying.

Please read the article. It won’t take you longer than it took me to watch the youtube video you cited.

Then you’ll see what I’m proposing. 👍
PRmerger, if you’re too lazy, don’t have the time to, or are unable to summarize and back up an argument from a source in your own words, then you shouldn’t be using that source to argue. However, this time I’ll look at the article.

When have I posted a youtube video in such a way that required people to refute the video in order to refute the point or fact that I was drawing from a video? You don’t appear to understand the difference between summarizing another source in one’s own words versus making someone refute the entire source.

I read the article, which was not convincing at all. It was also nothing that I haven’t heard before. If you think it was convincing, argue why you think it was.
TruthSeeker60;7221475:
A better question is did non-Christians persons, as opposed to societies, figure it out earlier?
How 'bout you answer *my *question?
I think there’s reasonable evidence that societies, which were incidentally fill with Christians, began to move toward abolitionism because of the enlightenment. This is why I think “did non-Christians persons, as opposed to societies, figure out that slavery is wrong earlier” is a better question.
TruthSeeker60;7221475:
Wouldn’t societies have abolished slavery earlier if god explicitly condemned it? Pro-slavery advocates in the US south mentioned god’s lack of condemnation of slavery in the Bible, as well as his allowing it in the OT, as evidence that slavery is OK.
LOL! See these examples of things that societies have not abolished, even if God explicitly condemned it:
Those are all things that are not abolished. I was asking if a condemnation of slavery from god would have likely sped up abolition of slavery. You didn’t address that.
TruthSeeker60;7221475:
On a matter of what he believed, a statement from a family member, a contemporary of him, is sufficient to justify belief that Pat Tillman was an atheist. Are there any contemporary writings of Jesus? Remember, the gospels were written decades after the alleged death of Jesus (and we only have copies of copies of those with interpolation).
So the disciples lied? Why would they do that?
If you think that Pat Tillman’s family lied, I’d be interested in seeing the evidence.
 
So, did Pat Tillman do a bad thing when he ended his life?
He either did a good thing by defending the lives of others, or erroneously thought he was defending the lives of others.

How do you define morality, good, and evil?
 
Again, TruthSeeker, I did not say it doesn’t hinge “in some way” on the Bible.

It’s just not the source. The source is Jesus.

And that’s how we know whether there are any theological errors in the Bible. The CC discerned the over 400 "Christian texts’ to determine which of those texts proclaimed the Gospel.
How do you know what Jesus said? Are any of those texts written by contemporaries of Jesus?
 
You do not need to look at another survey just look at Germany. A mostly religious nation does not seem to be having these problems.
What about Norway?

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Natural law is not something found in a book. However these morals coincide with the teachings in the Bible and the Church. If you want to research try the ten commandments for starters.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law
The ten commandments say nothing about slavery.

I was hoping you would say how you define and understand natural law. Does this wikipedia article define natural law the same way you do?

How do you define morality, good, or evil?
 
He either did a good thing by defending the lives of others, or erroneously thought he was defending the lives of others.
Interesting. If it’s the latter, then you really have lost your one example of an atheist who did a heroic thing. (Not that I even denied atheists could be heroes. I asked for an example of an atheist who gave his life out of sacrificial love for a stranger. But I digress.)

If it’s the former, then you’ve lost your example of how to determine whether an action is moral or not. It was, clearly, an action that ended poorly for the honorable Pat Tillman. If this is your criterion for a good vs bad action, then this, sadly, was a bad act.
 
I answered it BRIGHT ONE! I’ve been repeating my self so many times its become a running joke.

God can take away life because he gave it!
No, you didn’t answer it. I’ve been looking through the thread over the last few days that I’ve missed, and I can’t find an adequate response from you, so I’ll post my request again. It’s possible I’ve missed the post where you write this sentence, so if I have, please link me to it.

I am interested in your opinion on the statement, “Slavery is a good thing when God endorses it, as he does in Leviticus 25.”

If you agree with this statement, I want to see that statement appear as your own words in a post. Just post that one sentence. I want to see a post where you write that sentence, in public for everyone to see that you think there is a context in which slavery is good.

If you do not agree with that statement, then explain why you don’t agree with it.

It’s not a hard request. I just want it on public record how you feel about slavery. Other theists are invited to participate as well.
 
Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God.
Mary is not the mother of God the Creator but the mother of God incarnate. The reason she is called Mother of God is that there were heretics who denied Jesus is the Son of God.
A lot of theists may say “if there wasn’t a god, what would keep you or others from doing X, Y, and Z.”
Then they are mistaken! The fact that people behave morally does not entail a rational basis for their morality.
Why not altruism? If one did something because of altruism, it isn’t prideful for that to be appropriately acknowledged.
Why not but also why? If altruism is a matter of custom or culture it has no more merit than being polite. It is only when we choose that altruism is praiseworthy.
however when a theist does a good thing, it is often attributed to his/her religion (while the attrocities done for religious reasons are often not appreciated).
That is because religion provides **a rational basis for belief in goodness **whereas materialism doesn’t.
What’s more praiseworthy, doing something sacrificial for someone else for no reason other than a selfless concern for their welfare, or because you will be rewarded after death if you do, and punished after death if you don’t?
If selfless concern is habitual it is less praiseworthy than that motivated by love. We Christians don’t think of reward or punishment because our sacrifices are based on the love Christ has for us. We know we are created for love and that is the reason we exist. We don’t always succeed but we try to see Christ in everyone because we believe He suffered and died for all of us. Selfless concern alone is as cold as charity!
Also, if religion provides a rational basis for doing good, and it teaches that murder, including abortion, are bad, then why would The Journal of Religion and Society, as reported by The Times, say that in prosperous democracies, abortions, homicide, and teen pregnancies be correlated with religiosity?
Prosperity gives you the answer! Blessed are the poor…
Depending of how “morality” is defined, the question may be flawed. If morality is defined as “a system of ideals governing conduct” then it doesn’t made a lot of sense to speak about the universe being either moral or amoral, because morality is an inherently social thing.
If morality is an inherently social thing - and no more than that - it is no more praiseworthy than etiquette…
How do you know what precepts are Christian and what are not? Do you get your morality from Yahweh? The Bible said that Yahweh mandated those things.
The Bible does not say anything! It is a collection of scriptures which can be interpreted in many ways without the teaching of Christ and the Church He instituted.
There are certain principles regarding behavior that I hold because they have beneficial effects on everyone. One could call these principles “morality”.
“beneficial” begs the question. You need to explain why anything should be good or evil in an indifferent universe.
“Benefit” means something that promotes well-being.
“bene” means “well”. So we are still none the wiser…
So I hold certain principles which promote well-being for everyone (which may be called morality). “Good” and “evil” can be understood as that which promotes well being for everyone and inhibits well-being for everyone respectively. These aren’t “things” that pop out of nowhere.
Much of the conflict and suffering in the world arises because people have different notions of well-being. Man is man’s worst enemy if man proposes and man disposes. When God is left out of the picture darkness covers the earth…
Value presupposes purpose. That which is purposeless is valueless.
Why can’t people decide what purpose they want to give to life? Why not make that goal happiness (like I have)? I think happiness is an excellent goal, don’t you?

Happiness for everyone in this life is not only unattainable but unacceptable for many because they would lose much of their power and wealth.
Why couldn’t morality (I’m using the definition above) have been created out of the need to deal with problems arising from living in community?
Human morality has not led to peace and harmony in the world because it ignores the Fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man.
BTW, someone can adopt “a system of ideals governing conduct” (morality) which harms others (like Muslims committing suicide attacks), just like civil laws can often be destructive.
Precisely - which proves that man-made morality is fallible and futile.
If this was so, then why did St. Paul tell slaves in Ephesians 6:5-9, to obey their masters?
Jesus knew it would be futile to attempt to transform society by condemning slavery and class distinctions. As it was, He was executed for challenging the status quo. It is clear from His teaching that all men, women and children are equal in the sight of God.
That is the ideal He has bequeathed to humanity and the basis of the UN Declaration of Human Rights.
If a omniscient god wanted to write a book that would appear to be obviously authored an omniscient being, he wouldn’t allow any errors in it.
God didn’t write a book! He communicates with us through fallible human beings. How else would He do it without depriving us of our freedom to choose what to believe and how to live?
Why would you believe in the theology of a religion for which the holy book gets fundamental statements by your god wrong?
The fundamental statements are not wrong! " Love God and love thy neighbour as thyself…"
 
If it’s the former, then you’ve lost your example of how to determine whether an action is moral or not. It was, clearly, an action that ended poorly for the honorable Pat Tillman. If this is your criterion for a good vs bad action, then this, sadly, was a bad act.
NO. Sacrificing one’s life for another does good for another. It’s a situation of double-effect.
 
The ten commandments say nothing about slavery.
I was hoping you would say how you define and understand natural law. Does this wikipedia article define natural law the same way you do?
How do you define morality, good, or evil?
Those are fun to refute. Post the first one that comes to mind.

You could look at the Catholic definition of natural law further down on the page. Morality comes from natural law, “evil” is the absence of “good”. For the definition of “good” read the Bible.
 
in know that jesus supports this sentiment in the doubting thomas incident, but why would god think it is more virtuous to believe in him based on insufficient evidence than based on the sort of evidence with which thomas was presented?

i wonder how it would go over when my wife complains that i haven’t given her flowers or taken her out in a long time. should i say that it would be more virtuous of her to believe in my love and devotion when i don’t pay her any attention or give her any indication that i care?
Perhaps to prove that we have courage and devotion, which is then confirmed through the experience of the divine which springs from faith.
Perhaps it’s for reasons we being humans cannot possibly understand compared to God.
Quite honestly, i don’t know, but it sure beats having no faith at all (a condition from which i am trying to recover)

The relationship between you and your wife, is hardly the same as the relationship between God and all humanity.
 
PRmerger, if you’re too lazy, don’t have the time to, or are unable to summarize and back up an argument from a source in your own words, then you shouldn’t be using that source to argue. However, this time I’ll look at the article.
:clapping:

5 minutes of your time well spent. And now your questions are answered. 🎉
**When have I posted a youtube video in such a way that required people to refute the video in order to refute the point or fact that I was drawing from a video? ** You don’t appear to understand the difference between summarizing another source in one’s own words versus making someone refute the entire source.
That’s entirely possible. I don’t even appear to understand what your sentence in bold means. Sorry. :o
I read the article, which was not convincing at all.
Ok. Summarize your objections to it, please.
I think there’s reasonable evidence that societies, which were incidentally fill with Christians, began to move toward abolitionism because of the enlightenment. This is why I think “did non-Christians persons, as opposed to societies, figure out that slavery is wrong earlier” is a better question.
Please cite your examples of non-Christian persons who figured out slavery is wrong. And you’ll have to be able to prove that they were not influenced by the Judeo-Christian ethos.
Those are all things that are not abolished.
Right. That’s my point. Why would slavery be any different if God had given an explicit command forbidding it?
I was asking if a condemnation of slavery from god would have likely sped up abolition of slavery. You didn’t address that.
I did. But I can repeat and elaborate.

We have multiple examples of God condemning certain actions, but society continues to promote these actions.

How much power do you think the Church actually has?

Heck, the CC can’t even get most of its members to stop using birth control, despite infallible proclamations regarding such.
 
If you think that Pat Tillman’s family lied, I’d be interested in seeing the evidence.
After all this discussion, it seems that whether he was actually an atheist is, really, moot, no?

For your example of Pat Tillman has,* in finis*, worked poorly for you.

Clearly, you think either he was NOT doing a good thing…
Originally Posted by TruthSeeker60 View Post
I label things “bad” if they hinder one’s well-being (see my other posts).
OR, sadly, stupid.
He either did a good thing by defending the lives of others, or erroneously thought he was defending the lives of others.
No disrespect meant to the memory of the honorable Pat Tillman. :signofcross:
 
How do you know what Jesus said? Are any of those texts written by contemporaries of Jesus?
I refer you to the book by Pope B16 regarding the historical Jesus, *Jesus of Nazareth. *


Incidentally, I hope you apply this same degree of skepticism to other disciplines.

Do you require text written by contemporaries of Ptolemy?

Or Xerxes?
 
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