How does one respond to the fairy, leprechaun unicorn, etc. comparisons?

[PRmerger]

The relationship between you and your wife, is hardly the same as the relationship between God and all humanity.

Oh, but it is, Gallowglasser.

Actually, to your point, Rocinante’s marriage may or may not be a good example of the relationship between God and humanity…but marriage, specifically Christian marriage, is a wonderful icon of the relationship between God and his people.

 

[PRmerger]

i wonder how it would go over when my wife complains that i haven’t given her flowers or taken her out in a long time. should i say that it would be more virtuous of her to believe in my love and devotion when i don’t pay her any attention or give her any indication that i care?

That is a true enough sentiment.

Now, naturally, the Catholic will respond that we have the Supreme Attention of God. And the most intimate example of His Love and “care”.

 

[ddarko]

No, you didn’t answer it. I’ve been looking through the thread over the last few days that I’ve missed, and I can’t find an adequate response from you, so I’ll post my request again. It’s possible I’ve missed the post where you write this sentence, so if I have, please link me to it.

I am interested in your opinion on the statement, “Slavery is a good thing when God endorses it, as he does in Leviticus 25.”

If you agree with this statement, I want to see that statement appear as your own words in a post. Just post that one sentence. I want to see a post where you write that sentence, in public for everyone to see that you think there is a context in which slavery is good.

If you do not agree with that statement, then explain why you don’t agree with it.

It’s not a hard request. I just want it on public record how you feel about slavery. Other theists are invited to participate as well.

Sheesh, you again. One nuisance after another.

I ask you a million questions that go un-anwsered yet you ask me this TYPICAL question on Leviticus 25 which you can find the answer to by a single Google search. Or in-fact, some of the people on this forum DID address you if you did properly take the time to read it instead of REPEATING YOUR SELF like a broken record.

God never supported slavery in the sense it took place. So yours is rather a useless argument. You are equivocating two different forms of the term slavery. The one in Leviticus 25 is totally different from the one we find that was practiced by some Western nations i.e. slave traders.

Being a slave is NOT intrinsically wrong. We are called to be Slaves of God. There is nothing wrong in this sense. In another different way, even working for a company can be considered as slavery. That does not make it any less immoral. It is the particular form of slavery that was practiced by the slave traders that must be condemned. Not all slavery in general.
Thats just one explanation of many btw. The atheist, if to show that this passage indeed proves his point, HAS to show clearly that NO explanation can stand that lets God off the hook. So you have a tough job on your hands. Good luck!
Not that an atheist should care anyway. I for one see no logical reason why even murder is logically wrong under an atheist belief. Yet people like you are so high and mighty to judge God on slavery. One day people are going to look back in our history books and wonder what idiotic thoughts people like you promoted in our society. But thats a debate for another day with much more brighter people.

Does that answer your question? Next time, just do me and everyone else on this forum a favor and do a literature search or ATLEAST a google search and try to find the answer yourself rather than introduce garbage questions as if you are asking the most powerful question in the world. It’s one thing to genuinely ask for an answer. It’s another to use it like you already know there is NO answer.

The only thing that will cure you and truthseeker60’s madness is a proper education and God’s grace.

God Bless

 

[Andrew1983]

Look, I’ve only read maybe two or three pages of this thread, so I’ll try not to get into the later arguments at the moment, but as far as these absurd comparisons to fairies, gnomes, etc. to the LORD, I’ll post my “debunking of the Flying Spaghetti Monster”.

---

A response to all this “Flying Spaghetti Monster” nonsense:

"I would daresay that the comparison of God to a fairy or unicorn is absurd based on the premise that the two latter have clearly defined and observable characteristics.

Even if you claim to believe in a Flying Spaghetti Monster, it’s easy to disprove based off of the clearly defined criteria that has been presented. 1, the entity is composed of spaghetti which we know to be long noodle strands; 2, we are given information that it is capable of flight; and 3, we are told it is a “monster” (meaning it may be predatory, aggressive, and invokes a sense of fear, etc.)

Has anyone been able to claim observation of such a creature? No. However, I forgot, the creature is “invisible”. Unfortunately, that only means I cannot directly visually observe the creature’s physical form. However, I still have four other senses, and simply because I can’t confirm primary data visually, I can use secondary information, based off of traces of activity such as a path of spaghetti sauce on objects that can be directly observed. The four other senses can detect movement of wings flapping or buzzing (it is flying after all), other noises emitted from the creature, a distinct smell (perhaps Ragu or Prego sauce), a texture of spaghetti gathered by touch, and of course taste.

I think the far more interesting question is, by what criteria or standards does the atheist use to define God."

 

[AntiTheist]

The [kind of slavery that God advocates] in Leviticus 25 is totally different from the one we find that was practiced by some Western nations i.e. slave traders.

And that is utterly irrelevant. I’m talking about the idea of one person owning another as property, which I find abominable, which you and your god apparently have no problem with.

Being a slave is NOT intrinsically wrong.

I didn’t ask you to tell me that you think slavery isn’t intrinsically wrong. I asked you if you thought that slavery was good when God endorses it.

You claim that your God is good – by definition, apparently – so everything that he commands must therefore be good. By your own definitions, his nature cannot have him command something that’s not good.

I want you to write out the following sentence: “Slavery is good when God endorses it, as he does in Leviticus 25.”

You’ve come close to admitting that you think slavery is good in some contexts. Come on now, just go that extra inch and tell us that you actually think that slavery can be good.

 

[ddarko]

And that is utterly irrelevant. I’m talking about the idea of one person owning another as property, which I find abominable, which you and your god apparently have no problem with.

Not all slavery is WRONG. I said that to you. Does your brain block out phrases and sentences that does not work well for your argument or something?

I didn’t ask you to tell me that you think slavery isn’t intrinsically wrong. I asked you if you thought that slavery was good when God endorses it.

You claim that your God is good – by definition, apparently – so everything that he commands must therefore be good. By your own definitions, his nature cannot have him command something that’s not good.

I want you to write out the following sentence: “Slavery is good when God endorses it, as he does in Leviticus 25.”

You are not so smart are you?

Get this in to your head. You are assuming Leviticus 25 advocates a type of slavery that is indeed IMMORAL.

BUT, to the contrary it is not. But even if God did encourage slavery, it’s God’s wish. Who am I to question his wish?

God is my creator. So if he wants me to serve you and everyone else (like he said himself), then that is his wish. I truly do bow to it.

There is nothing UNJUST logically if God commanded me to be the slave of my wife or anyone else.

The problem YOU and TRUTHSEEKER60 can’t get in to your heads is that God is the creator. He can murder you, me and all of creation, command me, you and everyone else to slavery and yet be JUST because it is not UNJUST to take away what he gave us in the first place.

Instead, you keep debating by equivocating God with Humans. Obviously, no human can murder someone OR make someone their slave by FORCE unless the command is by GOD ALONE.

I am the property of God. I owe my life and existence to him.

Simple stuff here and yet you stumble over it.

You’ve come close to admitting that you think slavery is good in some contexts. Come on now, just go that extra inch and tell us that you actually think that slavery can be good.

lol even if I did say it was good, so what?

Is the point of this exercise to make me say that slavery is good? I am sure you would say that slavery OBVIOUSLY is bad or in your own words “I find abominable”.

If you do say that, then that itself is just proof for me that the Moral Argument is holding strong and therefore God exists

So in either case, you are on a loosing side here. Your brain doesn’t seem to be allowing you to see it

God Bless

 

[TruthSeeker60]

I short on time, but here’s quick replies:

That is because religion provides **a rational basis for belief in goodness **whereas materialism doesn’t.

If selfless concern is habitual it is less praiseworthy than that motivated by love. We Christians don’t think of reward or punishment because our sacrifices are based on the love Christ has for us. We know we are created for love and that is the reason we exist. We don’t always succeed but we try to see Christ in everyone because we believe He suffered and died for all of us. Selfless concern alone is as cold as charity!

You say that religion provides a rational basis for belief in goodness. However, if a Christian can do something out of love (entailing that it’s not done because of reward/punishment) why can’t an atheist do the same?

Prosperity gives you the answer! Blessed are the poor…

And that’s why countries with about equal standards of living as America tend to have lower rate of homicide, STDs, abortion, etc? (and yes, other countries have recently reached, even arguably surpassed, America’s standard of living; the median household income, adjusted for inflation, is over twice as high is Switzerland than America)

The Bible does not say anything! It is a collection of scriptures which can be interpreted in many ways without the teaching of Christ and the Church He instituted.

I you have any writings of the sayings of Jesus outside the Bible, I’d be very interested. I’m sure some historians would die for it.

Happiness for everyone in this life is not only unattainable but unacceptable for many because they would lose much of their power and wealth.

I think that’s one of the dangers with religion. I think it somewhat hinders one’s abilities to appreciate this life, which, as far as I know, is the only one we get.

Human morality has not led to peace and harmony in the world because it ignores the Fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man.

Studies have shown that the most religious countries have been the most violent (even if one excludes Muslim countries), while countries which have had the highest percentage of non-believers have been the most peaceful. Considering this, as well as considering that until recently lack of belief in some sort of god (which influenced moral thinking), I would say that morality from religion has failed keeping peace.

What’s more dangerous, arbitrary, and relativistic, non-believers choosing to adopt a non-violent morality, or a believer adopting morality from a god who ordered that children be killed?

God didn’t write a book! He communicates with us through fallible human beings.

God authored a book (according to Christian theology). It’s a cop-out to blame all the contradictions and other problems on those incompetent humans he inspired.

For the definition of “good” read the Bible.

!!!
where can the definition of “good” be found in the Bible! Is dashing babies against rocks good? What about infanticide? What about killing everyone in a town for a single person worshiping another god?

Perhaps you could provide your definition of good.

Do you not think dying hindered Pat Tillman’s well being?

I already said that this is a situation of double effect.

BTW, this is very, very, off topic. Going into the nuances and weaknesses of my moral philosophy as I have thus far articulated it, has little barring on whether or not god exists.

:clapping:

5 minutes of your time well spent. And now your questions are answered.

Actually, it was a waste of my time and didn’t satisfy any of my inquiries. I you want to make a point derived from that article, go ahead and type you point.

That’s entirely possible. I don’t even appear to understand what your sentence in bold means. Sorry.

What I was saying is that is someone was going to refute me, they don’t have to watch the video and prove the video to be wrong. The video is only to supplement the post or back it up factually.

Please cite your examples of non-Christian persons who figured out slavery is wrong.

Thomas Jefferson would be one example.

He wasn’t a Christian:

To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise … without plunging into the fathomless abyss of dreams and phantasms. I am satisfied, and sufficiently occupied with the things which are, without tormenting or troubling myself about those which may indeed be, but of which I have no evidence.

– Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, August 15, 1820

Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.

– Thomas Jefferson

[Christianity is] the most … perverted system that ever shone on man

– Thomas Jefferson, Something New Under the Sun
etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=JefLett.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=136&division=div1

He was opposed to slavery.

PRmerger, you didn’t answer the question of how you know what Jesus said. I probably should have rather asked, how do you know what Jesus ** said and did**? The gospels contradict themselves many times, and thus aren’t good sources.

 

[AntiTheist]

Not all slavery is WRONG.

Noted. But I asked you if you thought that slavery was good in some contexts. From your post, I can infer that you think the answer is definitely yes, but you are reluctant to say it explicitly. That’s telling.

if God did encourage slavery, it’s God’s wish. Who am I to question his wish?

So, just so we’re clear, you think that if this god you serve says that slavery is good, you would have to believe that it’s good.

God is my creator. So if he wants me to serve you and everyone else (like he said himself), then that is his wish. I truly do bow to it.

No, no, you’re equivocating now. I’m not talking about some kind of metaphorical slavery where you “serve mankind” by being good to everybody and turning your precious little cheeks. Leciticus 25 is talking about owning people as property and passing them down to your family members like pieces of property.

You think that this is good in the context of God endorsing it, don’t you?

lol even if I did say [slavery] was good, so what?

Well, it would tell us some valuable things about you, like the kind of person you are.

Your posts give us all sorts of valuable information about the kind of person you are – from your juvenile tone to your el-oh-el netspeak to your current claim that slavery is a-ok in certain contexts.

 

[Gallowglasser]

Oh, but it is, Gallowglasser.

Actually, to your point, Rocinante’s marriage may or may not be a good example of the relationship between God and humanity…but marriage, specifically Christian marriage, is a wonderful icon of the relationship between God and his people.

I stand corrected.

 

[excubitor]

Part 1/2

Some info about myself. I grew up Catholic. When I was a teen, I got my family to go to daily Mass. I chose to go to a passionately Catholic college. I’m currently a senior at that college, on track to graduate with theology as one of my majors and philosophy as one of my minors. I took a graduate class on “biblical foundations” with Dr Scott Hahn. I changed my views because after three years of studying Catholic theology, in order to fulfill my obligation from 1 Peter 3:15, I studied what many atheists had to say against religion.

Some alleged contradictions in the Bible can be reasonably reconciled, but many cannot. If the Bible is an infallible book, then I invite you to reasonably reconcile the differing times of the birth of Jesus found in Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:1-2.

Also, if the Bible is a perfect book made by a perfect being, it couldn’t be improved by anyone. However, I submit it can be easily improved by virtually anyone. One such way is to add passages that condemn slavery.

BTW, the Bible is a huge book (well over a thousand pages), which makes it easy for a Bible scholar to pull some alleged contradictions out of it, show that they are reconcilable, and claim that the Bible has no contradictions (when it has many).

BTW, it seems like your largely appealing to authority, and accepting things because they come from authority. Hence, the fact that most people on youtube aren’t considered experts may lead you to excuse the content within their videos. It’s best to watch their videos, look the Bible verses up yourself, and use your reasoning to come to a conclusion.

Reading this response sent chills up my spine. You’re saying it’s ok that your god is a murderer. This could justify drowning one’s children in a bathtub. You’re saying that the morality that your god endorses receiving happiness from dashing babies against rocks and forcing raped women to marry rapists! That scares me.

If god kills 42 children for mocking another person for being bald, then he is not omni-benevolent

Why does there have to be absolute or objective morality? Why can’t we adopt a moral system that is best for society?

I think that the principle “don’t do unto others as you wouldn’t have them do unto you” has proven to be a very solid moral principle. In general, my morality is largely base off concern for others, and doing what’s best for society. I don’t see any reason to have to appeal to authority to know how to behave.

The morality people have today is much better than morality that is presented in the Bible. For example, we don’t condone slavery anymore. The Bible never condemns slavery. Christians generally wouldn’t have a man stoned for gathering sticks on a holy day like Yahweh did (Numbers 15:32-36). Christians today wouldn’t force raped women marry the rapist, like Yahweh did (Deuteronomy 22:28-29). They wouldn’t typically be happy while dashing babies against rocks (Psalm 137:9). They wouldn’t threaten them to eat their own children, like Yahweh did (Deuteronomy 28:53). They wouldn’t go through a city and kill all, including women and children, who don’t have a certain mark, as Yahweh ordered (Ezekiel 9:5-6). Christians today also wouldn’t do many of the other things Yahweh did or order other people to do.

Basically, both Christians and non-Christians today have better moral standards than what Yahweh does. If any of those parts of the Bible I mentioned were instead in the Qur’an, you would probably think that that shows the evil of Allah.

This is the heart of this thread.

This is a statement of reason. If one was naive enough to believe extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence, then one may believe in Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy, or the claims of Sathya Sai Baba] ( which includes claims of divinity and of raising people from the dead, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sathya_Sai_Baba). That absurdity is my evidence that extraordinary claims do require extraordinary evidence.

I suppose you think that God does not send the wicked to hell either to writhe in pain for eternity. What kind of extraordinary evidence do you expect to find for the extraordinary claims of hell and judgement.

When you are standing on the brink of the lake of fire being judged then I am sure that you will have an opportunity to make your accusations against God, his scriptures and his church to him then.

 

[PRmerger]

Wouldn’t god, who is said to be omnipotent and keep everything in existence, be able to make someone cease to exist completely?

Take this analogy, TS.

Parents give their children knowledge. Once the children have it, it cannot be taken away by the parents. It already exists.

Similarly, God has given us an immortal soul. Once we have it, it cannot be taken away. It exists for eternity.

God, however omnipotent, cannot make sense out of nonsense. So it’s an absurdity to say, “Can God make a square round?”

As CS Lewis said, (paraphrasing), putting “can God” in front of nonsense does not cease to make it nonsense.

 

[PRmerger]

Noted. But I asked you if you thought that slavery was good in some contexts. From your post, I can infer that you think the answer is definitely yes, but you are reluctant to say it explicitly. That’s telling.

I will say it explicitly.

I am a slave of Christ, and this is a good thing.

 

[PRmerger]

However, if a Christian can do something out of love (entailing that it’s not done because of reward/punishment) why can’t an atheist do the same?

Well, clearly, no atheist has done the same. :sad_yes:

Certainly Christians and atheists are capable of doing natural acts of love. However, atheists cannot provide supernatural acts of love, ala Maximilian Kolbe. You need to say yes to God for that.

 

[PRmerger]

Thomas Jefferson would be one example.

He wasn’t a Christian:

Clearly he was influenced by Judeo-Christian principles.

PRmerger, you didn’t answer the question of how you know what Jesus said. I probably should have rather asked, how do you know what Jesus ** said and did**? The gospels contradict themselves many times, and thus aren’t good sources.

The same way you do, TruthSeeker. From the Catholic Church.

 

[donsnow]

In part because religiosity, even Christian religiosity, is correlated with crime, violence, and low IQ, I think people would be better off if belief in religion gradually decreased. The Journal of Religion and Society, as reported by The Times, said. “In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.”
timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece

Hi, TruthSeeker,

I went and read your link.

I found that the article gives no specific references and that it comes across as an unsubstantiated leftist propaganda rather than anything credible.

Regards,
Don

 

[donsnow]

Donsnow, I’m well aware of the brief references to Jesus in the Life and Works of Flavius Josephus. The primary reason why I don’t accept it as evidence to justify belief in what the gospel says is because Josephus was not a contemporary of Jesus and it was written about 100 C.E., about seven decades after the alleged death of Jesus. Other reasons include the facts that the oldest manuscripts of the Life and Works of Flavius Josephus are from the eleventh century, it has questionable (at best) authenticity (which I don’t intend to dive into now because that could take a while), and it

If you’re going to accept it, that’s up to you.

Prmerger, I want to pose this question to you to get you to reflect. If the Catholic religion doesn’t hinge on some way on the Bible, what is it based on?

BWT, the discussion on the virtuous qualities of people who believe in god versus those who don’t has no barring on whether or not there is a god. However, the question you were trying to answer, PMerger, was to name a moral action that someone who believes in god could do, but an atheist couldn’t do because of his lack of belief in a god. I already gave you the example of Pat Tillman, who was an atheist who gave up his life for the sake of others. I don’t see your reason for rejecting him (a military paycheck isn’t a reason because he was giving up millions of dollars in NFL contracts). Another person has directed you to information about Atheists in Foxholes, which has a lot more info.

Now back to my studies…

Hi, TruthSeeker,

You have done the typical skeptic reaction of rejecting the evidence on one flimsy ground or another. Of course I accept his writings as valid evidence. AD100 is plenty close enough for me, for Flavius Josephus to have published his works. Wonder how long he took in the writing of them?

Regards,
Don

 

[donsnow]

I quoted the scientific study contained in the article. I don’t think I could have provided a link to the full journal article, so I thought that providing a link to a news article that quoted the article would be a better way of showing that negative effects of religiosity have been verified by solid research than not providing a link at all. Any agenda the Times may have doesn’t change the findings of the study.

Would you like me to cite other studies that verify that one?

EDIT: Here are better links:
moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html#figures

Now hopefully I can get back to studying mental health…

Aw, TruthSeeker,

I guess you didn’t notice, but both links are to the same article in this journal.

Now, the article does substantiate the opinions in it. But, that’s all the assertion about religion not benefiting a society are, merely opinions.

Regards,
Don

 

[donsnow]

I short on time, but here’s quick replies:

BTW, this is very, very, off topic. Going into the nuances and weaknesses of my moral philosophy as I have thus far articulated it, has little barring on whether or not god exists.

Oh, uh, TruthSeeker,

This thread’s OP is NOT about whether or not God exists.

This thread’s OP is how does a Christian handle an atheist’s facetious argument that compares the Creator to His creatures?

And, since the OP of this thread is from one Christian to other Christians, there is no question as to the existence of God.

Are you trying to hijack our thread? Please answer this question plainly yes or no.

Thank you,
Don

 

[Rocinante]

Actually, we ARE talking about devoting ourselves to a person, Rocinante.

Surely you know the Catholic position that religion is our YES to God’s marriage proposal.

I assume you’re not a parent, then. You’ve never told a child, “DO NOT, under any circumstances, go into a car with a stranger.” I am quite dogmatic about that with my children. I defy you to tell me that this is said without such love.

we are talking about believing or disbelieving a creed.

 

[AntiTheist]

I will say it explicitly.

I am a slave of Christ, and this is a good thing.

Well, ok, but again, I’m not talking about a metaphorical kind of slavery where you “serve the Lord” by being good to people – I’m talking about literal slavery, one person owning another person as property.

I guess I should be asking people to say explicitly, “I think that one person owning another person as property – to be passed down to others, like any other piece of property – is good in some contexts.”

Incidenally, there was an amusing radio debate that Christopher Hitchens had a while back with someone who proudly claimed to be a “slave of Jesus,” and Hitchens’ response was something along the lines of “You’re welcome to that – just keep it in the S&M clubs and don’t try to teach it in schools.”