How does Orthodoxy view orthodox Anglicanism?

[gurneyhalleck1]

Unfortunately, the entire question is framed in western “Latin” terms, which can not apply to Orthodoxy. In the west there are concepts of ‘valid’, ‘invalid’ and ‘valid but illicit’.

As you know, Apostolicae Curae, and it’s entire rationale are inapplicable to the Orthodox way of looking at the problem of Anglican orders. It was an effort to move Anglican orders from the ‘valid but illicit’ category to the ‘invalid’ category. As far as Orthodox are concerned, when you are out of the church, you are on your own…and good luck to you.

Notwithstanding the personal opinion of many, the church itself does not take such a definite formal position on the matter. The church can only know who it is communion with, and that is always another bishop and church which shares the same theology. Beyond that, no one knows for certain.

That is not the same as knowing absolutely that one is outside of God’s Grace. We are not able to constrain the Holy Spirit, He goes where He will and he is not checking back with us first.

There is a possibility that the sacraments of the RC, or even the Anglicans, Methodists or Lutherans, are real…we don’t really know.

There is a possibility that the sacraments of the RC, or even the Anglicans, Methodists or Lutherans, are NOT real…we don’t know. Yes, I am arbitrarily lumping all four together here.

We will play it safe and assume nothing. In practical terms we have to act as if sacraments and orders outside of our church are irrelevant and refrain from communing or concelebrating with laity and church leaders outside of our own communion.

Any Orthodox Christian who assumes RC sacraments (or Anglican, Lutheran etc.) are valid can only express a personal opinion. In practice he must obey his bishop and the synod.

Any Orthodox Christian who assumes RC sacraments (or Anglican, Lutheran etc.) are not valid can only express a personal opinion. He still must obey his bishop and the synod.

Right now, Orthodox bishops routinely forbid us to commune outside of Orthodoxy. There may be exceptions to this, such as under severe persecution in the Gulags or in small Levantine villages, but they would be exceptions.

There is certainly no concelebration between our hierarchs and other hierarchs who teach something different.

Great explanation but I find it mind-boggling that Orthodox consider Roman Catholicism “outside” the Church and that they are unsure about whether the RCC orders convey grace or not? How could the Roman Church, which is presided over by the Chair of Peter, the primus inter pares**, who held a primacy of honor whether you believe in his infallibility or not, be questioned for a minute as being outside of the Church or doubtful in any way as being holy and catholic?

The Roman Church held a primacy of honor and great respect in the early church. Rome was often the last voice or the final judge of theological matters. The bottom line is that the East and West broke apart due to an ongoing chain of negative exchanges whether it was the deplorable sacking of Constantinople in 1204 or the disgusting Massacre of the Latins in 1184. The filioque was just an excuse to break up a united Church that had personalities that squabbled for power and prominence.

Both Churches, IMO, are valid, Catholic, holy, and grace-giving. Both possess apostolicity, their own beauty, and the sacraments.

What I fail to see is how the East could consider Rome outside** the Church and feel that their flock should not take communion from a RCC? How in the world could a Roman Catholic-consecrated Host be doubtful or shaky?

While the Orthodox were bottle-necked by Islam, Rome Christianized all of Western Europe and with men like Charles Martel, defended Christianity from Islam? It has been the papacy that has been the strongest world voice against abortion, euthanasia, stem cell research and bioethics, moral decline, subjective morality, and so many other issues. Pope John Paul II played a major role in the downfall of the Soviet Union. The Papacy has been the voice of Peter for two thousand years now. How could Roman Catholicism be lacking in anything sacramentally? Pope Benedict XVI actually has considered Orthodoxy to be “defective” and lacking in its fullness as it does not recognize the papacy and the Chair of Peter. If anything, I would, if I had to, doubt Orthodoxy more in its fullness. I can think of no Christian Church that is more definitive, historically important, more full of delineated and well-articulated catechesis and belief, or more influential than the Roman Catholic Church?

 

[Hesychios]

How in the world could a Roman Catholic-consecrated Host be doubtful or shaky?

I did not state that.

We do not commune with non-Orthodox. We do not address the issue of validity of orders or mysteries outside the church, it is irrelevant.

IOW it really does not matter whether or not the RC host has the Real Presence when the Papacy does not teach Orthodox theology. Sharing communion is a principle sign of a common Faith. Allowing intercommunion would be a sign that Orthodox endorse, or have become indifferent to, heterodox teachings.

Fix the theology and all kind of possibilities open up.

 

[O.S.Luke]

I did not state that.

We do not commune with non-Orthodox. We do not address the issue of validity of orders or mysteries outside the church, it is irrelevant.

IOW it really does not matter whether or not the RC host has the Real Presence when the Papacy does not teach Orthodox theology. Sharing communion is a principle sign of a common Faith. Allowing intercommunion would be a sign that Orthodox endorse, or have become indifferent to, heterodox teachings.

Fix the theology and all kind of possibilities open up.

Again, the mindset and perceptional differences between the West and East are vastly different. And not just when it comes to the Church.

 

[GKC]

Again, the mindset and perceptional differences between the West and East are vastly different. And not just when it comes to the Church.

It brings it back to the OP. The Orthodoox view Anglican orders as they view the RC orders.
Ok by me.

GKC