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Svar
Guest
Does haveing multiple people praying for you magnify the prayers? Does it make God more likely to intervene?
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John_Martin
Guest
God is not moved to do things, such as answer prayer, by one cause (one prayer) or many causes (many prayers “pray-ers”)
God’s movement is a movement of operation, not a movement of changing (like changing his mind).
When you are eating a bowl of ice cream, you are not moving closer and closer to “having ice cream”, but you are in the operation of “delighting in being united with ice cream”.
When you went to the store to buy the ice cream you were in the movement of changing into a person who would soon be united with ice cream.
In his knowing, God knows himself helping at the moment when certain temporal causes are all present (because he does things in an ordered fashion, ordered by his knowing), but not other causes.
If, in his knowing, he knows that he will operate to help at the moment when 1. the need is there, 2. a certain person is praying 3. and the expectation is there by the needy one while this certain person is praying, then that is the moment of answer.
Jesus did not turn water to wine just because there was need, or just because his mother told him about the need, or because he wanted some wine himself. But 1. there was need, 2. a certain Mary was interceding, 3. the ones in need were in expectation ready to do whatever he said.
The servants did not know that Mary was the person in God’s knowing; they probably told many people about the concern, and there may have actually been prayers by some of these people that God would help the marriage celebration. So they told many people, including Mary, and in the end, God’s knowing was fulfilled, and the water jars were filled, and finally all the guests were filled with the best wine.
So, from our perspective, it seems God is more likely to help, but from God’s perspective, he is sending his help only in the manner he knows himself sending it.
Late for work, bye; hope this helps.
God’s movement is a movement of operation, not a movement of changing (like changing his mind).
When you are eating a bowl of ice cream, you are not moving closer and closer to “having ice cream”, but you are in the operation of “delighting in being united with ice cream”.
When you went to the store to buy the ice cream you were in the movement of changing into a person who would soon be united with ice cream.
In his knowing, God knows himself helping at the moment when certain temporal causes are all present (because he does things in an ordered fashion, ordered by his knowing), but not other causes.
If, in his knowing, he knows that he will operate to help at the moment when 1. the need is there, 2. a certain person is praying 3. and the expectation is there by the needy one while this certain person is praying, then that is the moment of answer.
Jesus did not turn water to wine just because there was need, or just because his mother told him about the need, or because he wanted some wine himself. But 1. there was need, 2. a certain Mary was interceding, 3. the ones in need were in expectation ready to do whatever he said.
The servants did not know that Mary was the person in God’s knowing; they probably told many people about the concern, and there may have actually been prayers by some of these people that God would help the marriage celebration. So they told many people, including Mary, and in the end, God’s knowing was fulfilled, and the water jars were filled, and finally all the guests were filled with the best wine.
So, from our perspective, it seems God is more likely to help, but from God’s perspective, he is sending his help only in the manner he knows himself sending it.
Late for work, bye; hope this helps.
M
Myst
Guest
I have wondered about this myself, and I look forward to hearing other people’s answers. I always kinda pictured it like when a mom has a bunch of kids asking for things. When one kid asks she will consider it, but when all 10 are asking, it exerts more influence. Of course, if all ten are asking to have ice cream for breakfast every day, she may still say no because it’s not good for them. Not sure if that’s a good analogy, but that’s how I pictured it.
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littlestsouls2
Guest
Prayer does not change God; rather, God has made prayer a condition for receiving His grace. If we pray with faith (i.e. confidence, humility, love etc.), God is glorified and He favours us with the precious gift of grace. The more we trust, the more we receive. Prayer is never in vain; and yes, two prayers are better than one!
"By prayer man gives God the greatest glory possible.”
– St. Peter Julian Eymard
“God waits for us to ask Him, and even inspires us to ask for His help.”
– St. Pascal Baylon
“He would not urge us to ask unless He was willing to give.”
– St. Augustine
“… God, as the infinite goodness, in wishing to pour out Himself upon others, has, so to speak, an infinite longing to distribute his gifts; but He wishes to be besought: hence it follows, that when He sees Himself entreated by a soul, He receives so much pleasure, that in a certain sense He thanks that soul for it.” – St. Alphonsus Liguori
“Knowest thou what souls profit most by My goodness? Those who trust the most. Trusting souls are the robbers of My graces. Write that the pleasure I take in the trusting soul is inexpressible.”
"By prayer man gives God the greatest glory possible.”
– St. Peter Julian Eymard
“God waits for us to ask Him, and even inspires us to ask for His help.”
– St. Pascal Baylon
“He would not urge us to ask unless He was willing to give.”
– St. Augustine
“… God, as the infinite goodness, in wishing to pour out Himself upon others, has, so to speak, an infinite longing to distribute his gifts; but He wishes to be besought: hence it follows, that when He sees Himself entreated by a soul, He receives so much pleasure, that in a certain sense He thanks that soul for it.” – St. Alphonsus Liguori
“Knowest thou what souls profit most by My goodness? Those who trust the most. Trusting souls are the robbers of My graces. Write that the pleasure I take in the trusting soul is inexpressible.”
- Jesus to Sr. Benigna Consolata
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987mk
Guest
If I’m honest, it never worked for me.
There was no noticeable difference from when I prayed and when I stopped.
There was no noticeable difference from when I prayed and when I stopped.
J
John_Martin
Guest
Other than the difference within you, that when you prayed you were expecting something and now you expect nothing?
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987mk
Guest
The Bible and the Church made it crystal clear that if you pray, you will receive.
Of course I would have expected to have had at least some of my prayers answered or to have at least felt the presence of this God that so many believers claim to feel and hear.
In the past, I believed God could alter the course of my life and directly involve himself in my day to day to life.
Now I accept that we are alone in the universe and that there isn’t a God taking care of me or listening to my petitions. If there is a supernatural God, he certainly doesn’t involve himself in our lives or have anything to do with planet earth.
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Evania
Guest
Hi,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I think we all struggle when we don’t seem to get an answer. However, we have to be on the lookout to see if our prayer was answered in a way we didn’t recognize, in a way that we did not expect. That has happened to me a number of times. Sometimes, the answer is plainly no. That is especially confusing, especially when it seems that my prayer request would be within God’s Will. I think those questions won’t be answered until the end of time when things are made plainly clear to us. Other times there are situations in which the only prayer that is effective is prayer AND fasting as stated in the Gospel.
I think it’s also important to realize that when we pray, we need to pray in Jesus’s Name. Now, a lot of people figure that this means tacking on “In the Name of Jesus” at the end of their prayer like a magic formula that is guaranteed to have your prayer answered or their money back. However, I read a book by Sr. Ann Shields called Pray and Never Lose Heart. (Check it out!) In it she explains that it means much more than that. For instance, she uses this example: If I were to ask you for money or your signature for the pro-life movement or on behalf of Mother Teresa, you would rightfully assume that your money would be going to these places. However, when we pray in JESUS’ Name, we should assume that His Ways are above ours. She lists example after example of instances in which people prayed for years over a problem with no obvious answer and had their prayer answered by praying according to Jesus’ Name/Will.
One such case was with a young man who was addicted to drugs and alcohol. He had hit rock bottom, went missing, and his family was distraught. One of the members of his family felt God was telling her to not pray for anything else other than “seeking the kingdom for him, and all the other things he needed would be his as well.” She strictly prayed in Jesus’ Name…meaning that the way Jesus would want to answer the prayer, in a deeper way she could imagine. About a year and a half later after praying this way, his parents received a letter after not hearing from him for almost a decade. In it, he said that he had turned to God, got married, was expecting a child and that he desired to raise his family to know Christ. He wanted to be reconciled with his mother and father. We have to realize that God will always hear you. The answer may be no (but there’s a reason for that), the answer may also be, “wait” (there’s a good reason for that too!) However, He hears us and loves us!
Peace and Blessings!
T
Trident_H
Guest
Ok. So you’ve heard the ice cream analogy. And I mean that was pretty good. Actually, it sort of made me take longer to answer because I suddenly had to go all “change into a person who would soon be united with ice cream.” And now, to be honest, I’m sort of “delighting in being united with ice cream” right now so I hope you don’t mind.
But really here’s the thing that prayer does from my point of view. I mean you’ve probably read the comments from atheist 987mk. The atheist guy who wanted so badly to tell you that prayers don’t work that he even offered to be honest for a minute. That was sort of strange. But anyway. Here’s the way prayers work from the way I see it.
One guy praying is sort of like one guy working out in a field. I mean alone he can do a lot of work. But now along come a lot of friends. They all start helping him in the field. Now he can do a lot more work with all the help.
I mean Jesus said that faith has a size. And a measure. He said that faith as small as a mustard seed is a pretty powerful thing. So maybe each of us only has a tiny part of the faith we actually need to get stuff done. So we pray and pray and pray, but don’t get very far because our little faith is taking a while to build up into something bigger. But along come a bunch of friends and they just sort of bundle all that faith up into a bigger chunk. Maybe it’s still smaller than a mustard seed. But maybe it’s close enough. I don’t know. That’s up to God to figure out. All I know is that you can’t figure on planning by God’s handbook. Nobody gets a peek at that. Nobody gets to figure out exactly how much faith it’s going to take to do this or that. Maybe a lot of different things depend on that one thing you’re asking for. Maybe enough people have to surrender their free will long enough in order for that thing to tilt your way. I don’t know.
I hope that sort of helps.
Peace.
-Trident
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Trident_H
Guest
Not really. It said you needed an amount of faith. It said God would more likely listen to a guy who pestered, but it never said for how long. So how long did you pester? How long were you on your knees in true pain weeping for this prayer to come true? Because buddy. I’ve been there. I was that guy begging God to give me the strength I needed to quit my alcohol and drug addictions. I was the one desperate. On the floor. Begging. Crying. With no pride anymore. With no more conceit. Open and willing to let God take the lead for once. Willing to do anything at all.
And man He did just that. And no. I don’t think I was just talking to the door of the closet I was in at the time. I don’t think I was talking to all of the empty bottles either. I wasn’t begging my old boots for help. None of those things came and helped. But God did.
I don’t know. I mean I don’t know why God never answered any of your prayers. I mean maybe He was too busy answering mine? Maybe I begged louder than you did? I’m just guessing. I really don’t know.
And I guess you still believe that. Sort of. I mean you’re blaming Him for making you an atheist. So you’ve got that bit of proof that He’s still got it. He’s still got the power to change your life.
Well I guess that’s sort of true in your case. I mean God can’t really take care of you if you won’t let Him.
But on the other side of it, why are you here? I mean why are you hanging around the one site that claims to believe in the one thing that you hold to be the least true? I mean I don’t want to scare you into thinking about it too hard. But what about that little bit of doubt or bother that you’ve had since being atheist? What about the emptiness inside?
I don’t know man. I mean I’m not claiming to be some really deep thinking philosopher type. I’m just a guy who sank lower than low. Who got back up again. And who really appreciates the help he got along the way. I don’t want us to be enemies. I don’t want you to feel bad. I don’t think I’m better than you. I just see a sort of pain where you’re at. I feel a sadness there. Maybe a longing. And I’d like to fill that hole. I’d like to give you a hand.
But you’ve got to want it more than me. Because like drugs, atheism can be an addiction too. It can be an addiction of the mind. An addiction of the ego. It lets you free of a lot of hard work while rewarding your brain bits with warm pulsing feelings. Reward behavior for having thought your way out of a jam. Maybe sometimes you even get to feel sort of superior to the rest of those guys who still feel they have to grovel in front of the almighty nothing. Or maybe you just get to gloat about how sorry you feel for all of us. I don’t know. But just like any other addiction it gives you a kind of high. And just like any other addiction it can only be fixed with God’s help. And humility. And real suffering.
So man I don’t think you’re quite done with this yet. But I’m not going to push you. I’m not going to insult you by presuming to pray for you. Because this is one fight you’ve got to do on your own. You dug the hole. You’ve got to climb out of it.
But I wish you the best. I really hope you get through it.
Peace mk.
-Trident
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John_Martin
Guest
The mystery is, this God has full involvement with everything that happens with you and on this planet, and the entire universe, which is pretty vast, from the big picture down to dark matter and energy. And not just material creation, but the whole creation, which includes billions of species of angels, heaven itself, and hell. He is working all in all, and the mystery is that it is real but you cannot perceive it.
The birds that come to our feeders or the hummingbirds to our zinnias do not know that my wife bought food to fill the feeders, that she mounted the feeders or that we planted the zinnias and water them. So, to them my wife and I have nothing to do with their day to day satisfaction of hunger (which in the human parallel many people pray to have satisfied).
Unlike the birds, I can think about things like ice cream. But I can also learn from those creatures that do not think like I think, learn that there is something bigger or more caring than I am. The birds cannot, at all, recognize the source of this food with their senses. And I cannot recognize anything as “done by God” with my senses. But, in the same breath I can say he is delightfully working all in all for me, for you, and even working that we can understand his delightful working and converse with him about it (prayer) individually and corporately (with others or asking for others to pray). Mystery.
The birds that come to our feeders or the hummingbirds to our zinnias do not know that my wife bought food to fill the feeders, that she mounted the feeders or that we planted the zinnias and water them. So, to them my wife and I have nothing to do with their day to day satisfaction of hunger (which in the human parallel many people pray to have satisfied).
Unlike the birds, I can think about things like ice cream. But I can also learn from those creatures that do not think like I think, learn that there is something bigger or more caring than I am. The birds cannot, at all, recognize the source of this food with their senses. And I cannot recognize anything as “done by God” with my senses. But, in the same breath I can say he is delightfully working all in all for me, for you, and even working that we can understand his delightful working and converse with him about it (prayer) individually and corporately (with others or asking for others to pray). Mystery.
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dsfgsadfgsdfg
Guest
Admire this post, Trident.
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Trident_H
Guest
Thank you for that.
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HopenHappiness
Guest
I personally think that if God wants something to happen it will happen regardless of prayers. But I do find that Praying put me at peace with whatever is bothering me at the time. I am a firm believer in everything happens for a reason, even if we don’t know why at the time, it will reveal itself at the proper time.
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alphawoman
Guest
Thank you for this insightful and articulate post, John Martin. What an exciting way to describe the miracle of the a Wedding at Cana! I look forward to incorporating your comments into my contemplation for next Thursday’s rosary.
It’s so counter-intuitive for humans to view ourselves as non-static entities that move in relation to God. Loved the description of the dynamic state change occurring in buying ice cream…apt!!
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alphawoman
Guest
Gorgeous quotes!
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alphawoman
Guest
Trident, you’re going to help a lot of people with your words. I’m so glad to see you posting, my friend! 
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Trident_H
Guest
Thanks alpha. Thank you for your patience with me. And your kind words. They mean so much to me. And to have you as a friend is a big deal. You have no idea. I mean I have learned a lot from you. The things you write are straight up. They have changed the way I see things sometimes. I mean you’ve gotten through to me more than once.Trident, you’re going to help a lot of people with your words. I’m so glad to see you posting, my friend!
Peace, alpha!
-Trident
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987mk
Guest
When I was suffering greatly from mental illness, but unaware I was mentally ill, I prayed and confessed my guts out for years. I pestered this God for most of my adult life.
I was utterly ignored. I now realize I wasn’t ignored, there simply wasn’t anyone there.
I also stopped drinking without God and have been sober for three years. My mental illness is now well controlled, thanks to psychotropic medication and not because of my prayers all those years ago.
Sober, mentally strong and godless. I’m glad to hear you’re sober.
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Trident_H
Guest
Yeah. Ok. I got it. You don’t need the Big Guy. I’m not gonna twist your arm on this. I’m sorry you think He let you down. Or maybe I’m sorry He actually let you down. I mean I don’t see why I have to let God off the hook automatically. Just because He answered me doesn’t mean I can blame you for not getting an answer. Maybe you’re a different type of piece for His puzzle. Maybe He needs you on one of the edges. But for you to do that He’s got to flatten a part of you out. I don’t know.
All I know is that you’ve got guts. You fought your way clear from the bottomless pit and made it to the rim. On your own. Good job man.
Well I know that throwing God at you isn’t going to change you. And I mean if God doesn’t want you any different than you are how am I supposed to do anything about it? Just know this. Just know this one thing number-initial-guy. Some of us need God to do the things that save us from ourselves. You might be the exception. But it’s an easy bet you’ve got a thing or two that you do that you’d rather not. But fighting all your battles alone gets tiring. It takes some power for that. So I mean if you really can stand alone on that hilltop and do it all then I’m thinking you are really special. And maybe you’re right. Maybe you really don’t need God.
But man. I do. I need God. I need Him to protect me from the monster that I am. From the beast inside me. I need Him to hold my hand in the dark and tell me it’s Ok. So all I ask is don’t try to convince me I can do this on my own. Don’t try to get me to get out of the boat and walk on the water on my own. I’d just sink. And that’s not helping you or me.
So please don’t try and make everyone as strong as you. Don’t try to think that everyone wants to be always alone in their thoughts like that. Don’t think that you’re saving us from something restrictive. You’re just a tightrope walker who’s calling us out for keeping on our harnesses as we try for the same stunts. I don’t want to die following you man. I don’t want my soul to go out like a blazing torch. Just to prove that I could. Because I can’t. I tried that road already. It almost destroyed me.
Peace brother. You’re an inspiration. Stay strong.
-Trident
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