How does the Catholic Church view Orthodox "saints"

[Isa_Almisry]

Curious about it…
Since the late Pope did smooch the quran ,does he get the muslim benefits in the muslim heaven,like the 72 hourisis,enquiring mind wants to know…

He was a celibate, what would he do with 72 houris?

 

[Formosus]

He was a celibate, what would he do with 72 houris?

Preach them the Gospel and celebrate Mass for them : p

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Thats really off topic. There is no need to discuss that further here. This is about post schism saints on Eastern Catholic calenders.

The post schism saints were mistaken, though in many cases it was impossible to even find a Catholic church for many of them, especially if there were monastics or hermits. St. Isaac of Syria, ,a member of the Assyrian Apostolic Church ,is venerated by Catholics, Syriac Orthodox(miaphysites) , Assyrians,and by Eastern Orthodox. Infact Eastern Orthodox consider him one of the greatest spiritual fathers (as I do myself). So Isa, if its muddying the waters to venerate saints who were not of the same Faith then why is Mar Isaac held in such high regard within your own church?

Not that Orthodoxwiki is a valid source but, this is a quote from it on St. Isaac.
"His inclusion is thus an indication that the Church does not regard canonical boundaries as being the litmus test of Orthodoxy. "
orthodoxwiki.org/Isaac_of_Syria

Your answer comes, of all places, from the CE

A Nestorian bishop of that city in the latter half of the seventh century, being consecrated by the Nestorian Patriarch George (660-80). Originally a monk of the monastery of Bethabe in Kurdistan, he abdicated for unknown reasons after an episcopate of but five months, and retired to the monastery of Rabban Shapur, where he died at an advanced age, blind through study and austerity. Towards the end of his life he passed under a cloud as his Nestorian orthodoxy became suspected. He was author of three theses, which found but little acceptance amongst Nestorians. Daniel Bar Tubanita, Bishop of Beth Garmai (some 100 miles south-east of Mossul), took umbrage at his teaching and became his ardent opponent. The precise contents of these theses are not known, but they were of too Catholic a character to be compatible with Nestorian heresy. From an extant prayer of his, addressed to Christ it is certainly difficult to realize that its author was a Nestorian.
newadvent.org/cathen/08176a.htm

Does the Nestorian/church of the East venerate him?

St. Isaak’s glofication differs from the canonization by
“natural piety” by the indifferent. There are other examples: the work “the Spiritual Combat” of Lorenzo Scupoli being adapted by St. Theophanes and St. Nicodemus for the Orthodox.

Then’s there’s oddities like St. Jerome, whom, I think I’ve stated plenty of times I dislike, although my own priest is quite a fan (he says his personal prayers in Latin, to give an idea of his mind). Jerome was of course pre-schism, but I have seen dates of his canonization as post-schism. The Orthodox don’t question it, nor saints like Popes Victor, Leo, and Gregory, who show Ultramontanist tendencies, while the Vatican canonized the like of St. Meletius, who spent his “career” in defiance of Rome’s rejection of him and fell asleep out of communion with Rome.

Right now we and the Oriental Orthodox are working through the various saints of each other, to see the context of how saints who opposed each other’s communion can be in the same Church. There of course is precedence in the Universal Church canonizing both SS Cyril and John Chrysostom, the former refusing to commenorate the latter (as Jerome did refuse) , saying he was a Judas.

 

[East_and_West]

Considering that many of them, including St. Gregory Palamas, are in the Melchite, Ukranian, and Ruthenian calendars you can see that the Catholic Church looks at Eastern Orthodox saints as true saints. Otherwise you would have to say that the Byzantines are less Catholic than the western Catholics. And anyone who says that is simply a heretic.

It is my understanding, however, that some Eastern Orthodox Saints were not carried over after the union and are not allowed on the Byzantine calander. Is this true?

 

[East_and_West]

That could mean alot of things. The Church has grown expert at being ambiguous in its statements, and most of them aren’t worth reading.

Neither of these documents states the post-schism councils may be rejected, since they are not at liberty to say so. It would be an absurdity. The Councils themselves anathematized anyone who rejected them. It’s a fait accompli.

Exactly. No one is saying that Eastern Catholics have to dump their theological language. No one is even saying that Eastern Catholics have to focus on those things defined by post schism councils. However, they must assent to the teachings of the councils because these councils proclaim anathemas on anyone who rejects them. ANYONE.

 

[Formosus]

Exactly. No one is saying that Eastern Catholics have to dump their theological language. No one is even saying that Eastern Catholics have to focus on those things defined by post schism councils. However, they must assent to the teachings of the councils because these councils proclaim anathemas on anyone who rejects them. ANYONE.

If the councils are simply proffessing the Faith always held by the Church since the time of the Apostles, then it is impossible for an Eastern Catholic to deny them. That isn’t really the issue in this tread though. Dauphin brought it up as a tangent.

 

[East_and_West]

If the councils are simply proffessing the Faith always held by the Church since the time of the Apostles, then it is impossible for an Eastern Catholic to deny them. That isn’t really the issue in this tread though. Dauphin brought it up as a tangent.

But he raises an important point none the less.

 

[DL82]

There of course is precedence in the Universal Church canonizing both SS Cyril and John Chrysostom, the former refusing to commenorate the latter (as Jerome did refuse) , saying he was a Judas.

There are a lot of saints in this category. St John of the Cross was disobedient to the superior of the Carmelite order and spent much of his life locked up for it. St John Chrysostom had his disputes with many. Origen had some mad ideas that were accepted by some and rejected by others (and is still denied sainthood for it, despite nobody knowing that he was a heretic in his lifetime). Even St Thomas Aquinas was highly suspect among many ‘traditional’ theologians in his day because of his use of Aristotelian categories, even though the Catholic Church relies almost exclusively on his metaphysics these days. There were those who were suspicious of St Francis of Assisi because he seemed to be doing something ‘new’ in the Church.

Even that great champion of faith, St Athanasius, lost his eparchy and was driven into exile many times, with even the Pope signing a declaration at one point that seemed to equivocate between him and the Arians. Only after his death was his contribution to single-handedly defending Christian orthodoxy recognised.

 

[RNRobert]

St.Sarov is obviously a saintly man, and if i’m not mistaken he was saved by a miracle of an image of Our Lady which is a statue type like what the latins have.

An Orthodox acquaintance gave me a book: Little Russian Philokalia Volume 1: St Seraphim. It contains some of his writings and a little bit about his life. It is a very inspiring read.

 

[MrsMW]

I am Catholic, but am impressed and humbled by the saintly example of the Grand Duchess Elizabeth, and many of the other Russian martyrs who died witnessing to their faith in Christ.

I have no problem at all venerating them, and asking them to intercede for all of us who live in an increasingly anti-Christian culture.

Me too. Her life and death reflect Jesus Christ.

 

[MrsMW]

Another wonderful EO saint is St Xenia of St Petersburg. She spent her life doing penance for her husband who died while drinking. Who knows about him but she was called a “Fool for Christ.”

 

[josephdaniel29]

While canonizations obviously have no bearing on whether the person is in heaven, they do allow for the veneration of the Saint and confident prayers for his or her intecession.

That’s not true. Canonization as you know it didn’t exist for centuries but yet the faithful still confidently prayed to the saints. Canonization is nothing more than an official recognition of something that is already true and that the faithful already believe.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[redrosetea]

All I know to tell you is we have All Saints Day to celebrate all the saints in heaven, that would include the Orthodox

 

[bpbasilphx]

St. Elizabeth the New Martyred Abbess is one of my favorites.

I have an icon that was touched to her relics.

 

[MrsMW]

St. Elizabeth the New Martyred Abbess is one of my favorites.

I have an icon that was touched to her relics.

That is great! I was moved to tears by the story of her death.

I was able to visit the relics of St John of San Fransisco. The church is like Eastern heavan! I also was able to venerate the icon of St Xenia. The icon has a piece of the church she helped build.

 

[JuanCarlos]

Just my two cents:

Indeed, its been shown on this thread that there has been Orthodox post-schism saints on the liturgical calenders of the Eastern Catholic Churches. But it is a stretch to say this infallibly defines that they are in heaven. After all, inclusion in a calender does not guarantee infallibility- Our Lady of Fatima has a feast day, but the Church says Catholics are not required to believe in apparitions. Although one would do well too.

I would treat them as we treat “Blesseds”- while we can legitimately pray to them, they are not “for sure” in heaven until canonized by the Pope.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Just my two cents:

Indeed, its been shown on this thread that there has been Orthodox post-schism saints on the liturgical calenders of the Eastern Catholic Churches. But it is a stretch to say this infallibly defines that they are in heaven. After all, inclusion in a calender does not guarantee infallibility- Our Lady of Fatima has a feast day, but the Church says Catholics are not required to believe in apparitions. Although one would do well too.

I would think that Our Lady had been infallibly defined as being in heaven long before whatever happened at Fatima.

I would treat them as we treat “Blesseds”- while we can legitimately pray to them, they are not “for sure” in heaven until canonized by the Pope.

Do you treat other saints, like, say, SS Peter and Paul, as “Blessed?” After all, they were never canonized by a pope of Rome.

 

[East_and_West]

I would think that Our Lady had been infallibly defined as being in heaven long before whatever happened at Fatima.

Do you treat other saints, like, say, SS Peter and Paul, as “Blessed?” After all, they were never canonized by a pope of Rome.

First, there are no good reasons to suspect that Ss. Peter and Paul are not saints.
Second, their sainthood is so well established in universal catholic tradition that there is no reason to question their sainthood.
However, when it comes to the likes of Palamas or Photius, there are very good reason to question their sainthood.

 

[bpbasilphx]

I really have a special devotion to St. Elizabeth the New Martyred Abbess.

She was descended from the Roman Catholic Saint Elizabeth of Hungary, hence her name.

And as she wrote to her brother on the eve of her reception into Orthodoxy, “We are all of us Christians, Chist’s children.”

 

[Isa_Almisry]

First, there are no good reasons to suspect that Ss. Peter and Paul are not saints.
Second, their sainthood is so well established in universal catholic tradition that there is no reason to question their sainthood.
However, when it comes to **the likes **of Palamas or Photius, there are very good reason to question their sainthood.

Hmmm.

“By thoughtless violence you oppress the Russian people and urge them on to revolt. You are aware of the censure of the simple people, that it would be better to be in Turkish captivity than to endure such persecutions for faith and piety. You write that you freely drown the Orthodox, chop off their heads, and profane their churches. You seal their churches so the people, without piety and Christian rites, are buried like non-Christians. In place of joy, your cunning Uniatism has brought us only woe, unrest, and conflict. We would prefer to be without it. These are the fruits of your Uniatism. It would have been better not to have given us nationwide strife and hatred, and instead to have preserved us from nationwide condemnation.”

March 12, 1622
Letter of Leo Sapiega, Roman Catholic and Chancellor of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Representative of the Polish Crown
Addressed to Josaphat Kuntsevich

Although I understand that this man is considered a saint by the RCC and that this forum is intended for RCCs of any rite, rather than for EOs, you should be aware that he is not uncommonly referred to as “Josaphat the Malevolent” in EO circles and that his “sainthood” constitutes a very great offense and stumbling block to Catholic-Orthodox dialogue. The reason should be evident from the letter quoted, above-- written by an RC, no less.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4228102

Tidus

fourtunately I know plenty of Eastern Orthodox Christians who are nothing like you, whom appear to hold much hate, by refering to us as “the vatican” and mocking and insulting our saints and saying we have no right to exist, as a matter of fact the communists used the exact same language

You should be careful, becuase there are others reading this forum unfamiliar with the Eastern Orthodox religion and your open hostility and hate is the first impression they get of it, and that is a great disservice,

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4259795#post4259795

Isa

example?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4261449#post4261449

Tidus

Reread any of your 50+ posts, shouldn’t be too hard since time seems to be a bountiful commodity of yours. You slander and viscous lies about St. Josaphat is prime example

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4263912#post4263912

Isa

So bountiful you can’t come up with an example.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4264201#post4264201

Tidus

By the way, your info and sig says your a monophysite, so why do you care about Byzantine Catholics to begin with?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4263912#post4263912

Isa

Why do the Latins?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4264201#post4264201

Simple

Because we are Catholics, Isa. Because we are all Catholics.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4266241#post4266241

Isa

Yes, so you say.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4269293#post4269293

I guess according to some, all the saints of your communion aren’t

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=261684
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=201605